Best non-T14 BL options?

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brinicolec

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Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:26 am

After getting the no scholly $ email from Michigan, I'm starting to think I might not have a great T14 cycle and considering that I may have a difficult time heading somewhere like NYC post-grad. So far, my best scholly offer is from Emory and is actually a surprisingly large amount for my stats (I'm a splitter there). I was wondering if anyone has some insight on the ATL BL market + how well Emory places in it. I know the cycle is still young and I'm waiting on more scholly info, as well as more decisions, but I'd be lying if I said I'm not slightly concerned and just looking for some sort of reassurance that I can go to a school outside of the T14 if need be and not find it impossible to get into BL. Other schools I wouldn't mind hearing thoughts on are Vandy (a thread from very very long ago - like seven years ago now - mentioned Vandy as a better school for ATL BL than Emory) and Georgetown (for DC market).

My career goals aren't set in stone, but I do think that corporate litigation (perhaps a focus on white collar crime at some point) is where I may want to start and perhaps end up doing work as a defense attorney later on down the line. I am toying with the idea of just starting out in public interest work, but am kind of worried about that salary. I really, really don't want to practice anywhere but a city (NYC is ideal minus the cost). I do like DC a lot, and I suppose it'd be nice since my parents plan to retire in VA eventually. I'm not familiar enough with Atlanta to know whether or not I'd like it, but in my mind, it seems like the kind of place I might enjoy, although I'm kind of unsure about the southern aspect of it.

Hopefully, I provided enough info to get some advice/info. I seriously need it.

Thanks in advance for any insight!

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby BEng,MBA,FRM,JD(?) » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:12 am

brinicolec wrote:After getting the no scholly $ email from Michigan, I'm starting to think I might not have a great T14 cycle and considering that I may have a difficult time heading somewhere like NYC post-grad. So far, my best scholly offer is from Emory and is actually a surprisingly large amount for my stats (I'm a splitter there). I was wondering if anyone has some insight on the ATL BL market + how well Emory places in it. I know the cycle is still young and I'm waiting on more scholly info, as well as more decisions, but I'd be lying if I said I'm not slightly concerned and just looking for some sort of reassurance that I can go to a school outside of the T14 if need be and not find it impossible to get into BL. Other schools I wouldn't mind hearing thoughts on are Vandy (a thread from very very long ago - like seven years ago now - mentioned Vandy as a better school for ATL BL than Emory) and Georgetown (for DC market).

My career goals aren't set in stone, but I do think that corporate litigation (perhaps a focus on white collar crime at some point) is where I may want to start and perhaps end up doing work as a defense attorney later on down the line. I am toying with the idea of just starting out in public interest work, but am kind of worried about that salary. I really, really don't want to practice anywhere but a city (NYC is ideal minus the cost). I do like DC a lot, and I suppose it'd be nice since my parents plan to retire in VA eventually. I'm not familiar enough with Atlanta to know whether or not I'd like it, but in my mind, it seems like the kind of place I might enjoy, although I'm kind of unsure about the southern aspect of it.

Hopefully, I provided enough info to get some advice/info. I seriously need it.

Thanks in advance for any insight!


Hey Brin,

As you know, I am a 0L too, so whatever I say is based on my research and I would be delighted to stand corrected by more knowledgeable folks. The foregoing also means what I say is to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Atlanta market i have read from multiple threads is a 'bloodbath'! Not sure what exactly that would mean. The market is certainly big (7th biggest by headcount) but not sure if it's saturated or what the future holds. I am guessing the best placements in Atlanta would be through Emory, UGA, Vandy and maybe Duke.

Emory has about 26 percent BL placements so I assume top 15% are the only ones assured of BL through OCI.

Vandy places very well across board in the south, partly because Nashville is a small market. And I would assume it places well in Atlanta because that's one of the biggest markets in the south.

For corporate litigation, I feel DC would be a good market. And GULC is certainly the best best for the DC market.

Hope that helps. Good luck !!

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:44 am

You can go to a non-T14 school and get biglaw.

I wouldn't recommend this as a strategy, because your chances of a biglaw job drop precipitously as soon as you go anywhere below Cornell, but at a T20 or top regional school, you at least have a 30%-or-so chance. You just shouldn't consider any of those schools without a significant scholarship.

You should also know that it's very rare to start out in PI and then jump over to biglaw. If you work with the government, that may be more feasible, but it's an unusual career track. So if your goal is to at some point be in biglaw, you might want to consider trying again next cycle (although it's hard to say without knowing your numbers). If your real goal is to eventually do PI, then max out your scholarship offer and go to a school that will place you in the area you want to practice in.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:19 am

Atlanta is a sophisticated city populated in large part by Northern transplants. Which "Southern aspects" are you concerned about ? BigLaw jobs, however, will not be as plentiful as those offered to Michigan or Virginia law grads. Not too well informed about Vanderbilt so I cannot comment on that option.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby Johann » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:30 pm

probably best to start with: the schools you've gotten into that you are debating between, the COA, and your desbt risk aversion level.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:34 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:You can go to a non-T14 school and get biglaw.

I wouldn't recommend this as a strategy, because your chances of a biglaw job drop precipitously as soon as you go anywhere below Cornell, but at a T20 or top regional school, you at least have a 30%-or-so chance. You just shouldn't consider any of those schools without a significant scholarship.

You should also know that it's very rare to start out in PI and then jump over to biglaw. If you work with the government, that may be more feasible, but it's an unusual career track. So if your goal is to at some point be in biglaw, you might want to consider trying again next cycle (although it's hard to say without knowing your numbers). If your real goal is to eventually do PI, then max out your scholarship offer and go to a school that will place you in the area you want to practice in.


Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:41 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?


The former. The latter is still relatively rare (since biglaw is rarely people's long-term career goal), but it's more likely.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby yyyuppp » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:45 pm

This will help you

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=262376

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:45 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?


The former. The latter is still relatively rare (since biglaw is rarely people's long-term career goal), but it's more likely.


Maybe it's a Northeast thing but I actually see that all the time. A large number of DOJ/AUSAs jump ship and go biglaw and vice-versa.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:48 pm

Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?


The former. The latter is still relatively rare (since biglaw is rarely people's long-term career goal), but it's more likely.


Maybe it's a Northeast thing but I actually see that all the time. A large number of DOJ/AUSAs jump ship and go biglaw and vice-versa.


There are firms that have a bit of a rotating door, especially with certain districts. But what I was referring to was people who start at DOJ/AUSA positions jumping into biglaw. That's rare, because people who start there usually got in through the honors program and had a real commitment to government work. It's much more common to see someone do a few years at biglaw, a few years with the government, partner at biglaw, etc. etc.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:55 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?


The former. The latter is still relatively rare (since biglaw is rarely people's long-term career goal), but it's more likely.


Maybe it's a Northeast thing but I actually see that all the time. A large number of DOJ/AUSAs jump ship and go biglaw and vice-versa.


There are firms that have a bit of a rotating door, especially with certain districts. But what I was referring to was people who start at DOJ/AUSA positions jumping into biglaw. That's rare, because people who start there usually got in through the honors program and had a real commitment to government work. It's much more common to see someone do a few years at biglaw, a few years with the government, partner at biglaw, etc. etc.


Ah gotcha, yeah that makes sense

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby vcap180 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:02 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?


The former. The latter is still relatively rare (since biglaw is rarely people's long-term career goal), but it's more likely.


Maybe it's a Northeast thing but I actually see that all the time. A large number of DOJ/AUSAs jump ship and go biglaw and vice-versa.


There are firms that have a bit of a rotating door, especially with certain districts. But what I was referring to was people who start at DOJ/AUSA positions jumping into biglaw. That's rare, because people who start there usually got in through the honors program and had a real commitment to government work. It's much more common to see someone do a few years at biglaw, a few years with the government, partner at biglaw, etc. etc.


I'd note that those DOJ/AUSA kids probably wouldn't have too difficult a time jumping into BL if they wanted to.

But to OPs question: I think Emory places 30% in BL/FC. If I remember correctly from one of your previous posts, you are a URM, right? This may help when it comes to OCI. All things considered, Emory at a very steep discount wouldn't be a bad proposition if you're okay with Atlanta.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby S.Picquery » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:15 pm

Tag.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:17 pm

vcap180 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thomas Hagan, ESQ. wrote:Did you mean "PI to BL" is unusual or that "govt to BL" is unusual?


The former. The latter is still relatively rare (since biglaw is rarely people's long-term career goal), but it's more likely.


Maybe it's a Northeast thing but I actually see that all the time. A large number of DOJ/AUSAs jump ship and go biglaw and vice-versa.


There are firms that have a bit of a rotating door, especially with certain districts. But what I was referring to was people who start at DOJ/AUSA positions jumping into biglaw. That's rare, because people who start there usually got in through the honors program and had a real commitment to government work. It's much more common to see someone do a few years at biglaw, a few years with the government, partner at biglaw, etc. etc.


I'd note that those DOJ/AUSA kids probably wouldn't have too difficult a time jumping into BL if they wanted to.

But to OPs question: I think Emory places 30% in BL/FC. If I remember correctly from one of your previous posts, you are a URM, right? This may help when it comes to OCI. All things considered, Emory at a very steep discount wouldn't be a bad proposition if you're okay with Atlanta.


Since people seem to be unsure of what I meant by big scholly, it's around $140k.

Yes, I am URM.

I don't have any ties to the area, but I don't really have any ties to any area because of how I grew up.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:22 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:You can go to a non-T14 school and get biglaw.

I wouldn't recommend this as a strategy, because your chances of a biglaw job drop precipitously as soon as you go anywhere below Cornell, but at a T20 or top regional school, you at least have a 30%-or-so chance. You just shouldn't consider any of those schools without a significant scholarship.

You should also know that it's very rare to start out in PI and then jump over to biglaw. If you work with the government, that may be more feasible, but it's an unusual career track. So if your goal is to at some point be in biglaw, you might want to consider trying again next cycle (although it's hard to say without knowing your numbers). If your real goal is to eventually do PI, then max out your scholarship offer and go to a school that will place you in the area you want to practice in.



Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.

I don't want to sit out another year (I've already taken a gap year this year and I hate it) and really, the main part of the problem is my GPA, which I can't change. Maybe should've done an addendum but didn't want to risk airing out my issues and having adcomm view it negatively. If I WERE to decide to sit out, I suppose I'd retake the LSAT. Probably could've broken 170 if I'd waited and taken December instead of September. But again, not an ideal scenario for me.

I don't really KNOW what my goal is. Kind of torn between money and interests and hoping that actually going to LS will help me decide.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:26 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Atlanta is a sophisticated city populated in large part by Northern transplants. Which "Southern aspects" are you concerned about ? BigLaw jobs, however, will not be as plentiful as those offered to Michigan or Virginia law grads. Not too well informed about Vanderbilt so I cannot comment on that option.


I'm not really sure. I guess I'm wondering how stereotypically "southern" it is, basically. Most of the cities I've enjoyed are in the NE. I probably need to go to Atlanta sometime soon for like a weekend and just check out the city and see how I feel about it.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:01 pm

brinicolec wrote:Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.


Ok, now I'm a bit confused. Do you want PI, or do you want biglaw? There really isn't much overlap between the two outside of the government sector.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:08 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
brinicolec wrote:Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.


Ok, now I'm a bit confused. Do you want PI, or do you want biglaw? There really isn't much overlap between the two outside of the government sector.


As I said, I'm not sure what my exact career goal is. My interest in doing biglaw is primarily for the money (aka financial security) in which case, if I hated it (as some people swear everyone does) and already paid off loans, I would be able to take a pay cut if I wanted to do something that is more aligned with my interests (which is primarily DP stuff, civil rights, etc) while ideally having a cushion in my bank acct from saving. But I also think that I'd enjoy litigation (hence my wanting to do corporate litigation), which brings up the question of whether or not I'd enjoy being a criminal defense attorney or something of the sort. Essentially, I want to leave my options relatively open because I am still trying to figure out what exactly I'd like to do.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:11 pm

brinicolec wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You can go to a non-T14 school and get biglaw.

I wouldn't recommend this as a strategy, because your chances of a biglaw job drop precipitously as soon as you go anywhere below Cornell, but at a T20 or top regional school, you at least have a 30%-or-so chance. You just shouldn't consider any of those schools without a significant scholarship.

You should also know that it's very rare to start out in PI and then jump over to biglaw. If you work with the government, that may be more feasible, but it's an unusual career track. So if your goal is to at some point be in biglaw, you might want to consider trying again next cycle (although it's hard to say without knowing your numbers). If your real goal is to eventually do PI, then max out your scholarship offer and go to a school that will place you in the area you want to practice in.



Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.

I don't want to sit out another year (I've already taken a gap year this year and I hate it) and really, the main part of the problem is my GPA, which I can't change. Maybe should've done an addendum but didn't want to risk airing out my issues and having adcomm view it negatively. If I WERE to decide to sit out, I suppose I'd retake the LSAT. Probably could've broken 170 if I'd waited and taken December instead of September. But again, not an ideal scenario for me.

I don't really KNOW what my goal is. Kind of torn between money and interests and hoping that actually going to LS will help me decide.


How low is your GPA? If biglaw is what you want, and you think you can break 170, than you absolutely need to retake.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:13 pm

brinicolec wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
brinicolec wrote:Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.


Ok, now I'm a bit confused. Do you want PI, or do you want biglaw? There really isn't much overlap between the two outside of the government sector.


As I said, I'm not sure what my exact career goal is. My interest in doing biglaw is primarily for the money (aka financial security) in which case, if I hated it (as some people swear everyone does) and already paid off loans, I would be able to take a pay cut if I wanted to do something that is more aligned with my interests (which is primarily DP stuff, civil rights, etc) while ideally having a cushion in my bank acct from saving. But I also think that I'd enjoy litigation (hence my wanting to do corporate litigation), which brings up the question of whether or not I'd enjoy being a criminal defense attorney or something of the sort. Essentially, I want to leave my options relatively open because I am still trying to figure out what exactly I'd like to do.


I think you need to focus on your long-term interests. Biglaw would really just be a distraction for the money if your ultimate goal is civil rights/defense-type PI. So you should take the scholarship or take a school with a really great LRAP. Biglaw burnout is real, and that's just for people who actually thought they wanted to do it from the outset. If you never even want to be at the firm, you probably won't last long enough to pay back your loans.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby dianersg » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:13 pm

brinicolec wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Atlanta is a sophisticated city populated in large part by Northern transplants. Which "Southern aspects" are you concerned about ? BigLaw jobs, however, will not be as plentiful as those offered to Michigan or Virginia law grads. Not too well informed about Vanderbilt so I cannot comment on that option.


I'm not really sure. I guess I'm wondering how stereotypically "southern" it is, basically. Most of the cities I've enjoyed are in the NE. I probably need to go to Atlanta sometime soon for like a weekend and just check out the city and see how I feel about it.


As someone who grew up in a place that is pretty stereotypically "southern" and visited Atlanta a few times, I don't believe it has an overly Southern vibe. I like Southern culture other than the pro-Confederacy bigotry you will sometimes encounter, but there is very little of that in Atlanta in my experience. Emory (the undergrad at least) has a reputation as being very friendly to international students, so I think that minimizes the Southern culture as well.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:16 pm

existentialcrisis wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You can go to a non-T14 school and get biglaw.

I wouldn't recommend this as a strategy, because your chances of a biglaw job drop precipitously as soon as you go anywhere below Cornell, but at a T20 or top regional school, you at least have a 30%-or-so chance. You just shouldn't consider any of those schools without a significant scholarship.

You should also know that it's very rare to start out in PI and then jump over to biglaw. If you work with the government, that may be more feasible, but it's an unusual career track. So if your goal is to at some point be in biglaw, you might want to consider trying again next cycle (although it's hard to say without knowing your numbers). If your real goal is to eventually do PI, then max out your scholarship offer and go to a school that will place you in the area you want to practice in.



Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.

I don't want to sit out another year (I've already taken a gap year this year and I hate it) and really, the main part of the problem is my GPA, which I can't change. Maybe should've done an addendum but didn't want to risk airing out my issues and having adcomm view it negatively. If I WERE to decide to sit out, I suppose I'd retake the LSAT. Probably could've broken 170 if I'd waited and taken December instead of September. But again, not an ideal scenario for me.

I don't really KNOW what my goal is. Kind of torn between money and interests and hoping that actually going to LS will help me decide.


How low is your GPA? If biglaw is what you want, and you think you can break 170, than you absolutely need to retake.


It's around a 3.4 (so below everyone's 25th, basically).

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby PrezRand » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:17 pm

Is Michigan usually generous with scholarships?

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby existentialcrisis » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:21 pm

brinicolec wrote:
existentialcrisis wrote:
brinicolec wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:You can go to a non-T14 school and get biglaw.

I wouldn't recommend this as a strategy, because your chances of a biglaw job drop precipitously as soon as you go anywhere below Cornell, but at a T20 or top regional school, you at least have a 30%-or-so chance. You just shouldn't consider any of those schools without a significant scholarship.

You should also know that it's very rare to start out in PI and then jump over to biglaw. If you work with the government, that may be more feasible, but it's an unusual career track. So if your goal is to at some point be in biglaw, you might want to consider trying again next cycle (although it's hard to say without knowing your numbers). If your real goal is to eventually do PI, then max out your scholarship offer and go to a school that will place you in the area you want to practice in.



Maybe I wasn't clear in the original post. If I started in PI, I wouldn't go to BL, I'd just stay in PI. I don't really want to work with the government.

I don't want to sit out another year (I've already taken a gap year this year and I hate it) and really, the main part of the problem is my GPA, which I can't change. Maybe should've done an addendum but didn't want to risk airing out my issues and having adcomm view it negatively. If I WERE to decide to sit out, I suppose I'd retake the LSAT. Probably could've broken 170 if I'd waited and taken December instead of September. But again, not an ideal scenario for me.

I don't really KNOW what my goal is. Kind of torn between money and interests and hoping that actually going to LS will help me decide.


How low is your GPA? If biglaw is what you want, and you think you can break 170, than you absolutely need to retake.


It's around a 3.4 (so below everyone's 25th, basically).


I would think that a 3.4/170 URM would be racking up T14 acceptances and probably with some decent money as well. A retake is absolutely the right call.

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Re: Best non-T14 BL options?

Postby brinicolec » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:22 pm

PrezRand wrote:Is Michigan usually generous with scholarships?


Based on a quick glimpse on LSN, for my GPA, not really. Even people with LSATs in mid-170s or higher with a similar GPA are only getting a little. For example, for mid-170s + my GPA it looks like $45k is the common amount. Someone had a 177 + my GPA and got $75k.



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