Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

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cavalier1138

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:14 pm

BigZuck wrote:I'm not trying to harp just on the food thing, I just think it's emblematic of a larger miscalculation. I've gone out to dinner exactly once this month (yeah, it was sushi, I personally spent $40 because I am not a peasant). I bring my lunch (and often breakfast and dinner) to work every day. Every other meal this month has been at home. I try to be pretty frugal. But what you guys are talking about just isn't realistic when you actually have to do this job IMO.


Look, I understand your position. But if you have to keep justifying your food purchases by emphasizing that you aren't a "peasant", that kind of makes my point for me.

Yes, I think $300 for food for two is probably underestimating a bit (which is why I didn't throw that estimate out). But I also think that regularly buying food at almost quadruple the price (i.e. $4 eggs) is nuts if you're trying to aggressively pay down debt. If you aren't trying to pay that debt down on a harsh schedule, then go crazy.

Again, this is all based on wanting to pay down loans on a very tight schedule. If you don't want to sacrifice quality of life for paying down debt, then that's a fair decision. But you can't claim that it's impossible to pay that debt down just because you think that no one else will make that sacrifice.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby TAD » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:25 pm

BigZuck wrote:Go out for Sushi just twice in that month (remember: NOT a peasant) and that's like another $120.


Sorry, perhaps I am missing something, but how the hell do you spend $120 on Sushi just twice? Even If that's for two people, that is about 30$ per person each time you went.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby anyriotgirl » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:26 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm not trying to harp just on the food thing, I just think it's emblematic of a larger miscalculation. I've gone out to dinner exactly once this month (yeah, it was sushi, I personally spent $40 because I am not a peasant). I bring my lunch (and often breakfast and dinner) to work every day. Every other meal this month has been at home. I try to be pretty frugal. But what you guys are talking about just isn't realistic when you actually have to do this job IMO.


Look, I understand your position. But if you have to keep justifying your food purchases by emphasizing that you aren't a "peasant", that kind of makes my point for me.

Yes, I think $300 for food for two is probably underestimating a bit (which is why I didn't throw that estimate out). But I also think that regularly buying food at almost quadruple the price (i.e. $4 eggs) is nuts if you're trying to aggressively pay down debt. If you aren't trying to pay that debt down on a harsh schedule, then go crazy.

Again, this is all based on wanting to pay down loans on a very tight schedule. If you don't want to sacrifice quality of life for paying down debt, then that's a fair decision. But you can't claim that it's impossible to pay that debt down just because you think that no one else will make that sacrifice.


do you know what you have to do to a chicken to get a dozen eggs for 70 cents?
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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby anyriotgirl » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:28 pm

TAD wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Go out for Sushi just twice in that month (remember: NOT a peasant) and that's like another $120.


Sorry, perhaps I am missing something, but how the hell do you spend $120 on Sushi just twice? Even If that's for two people, that is about 30$ per person each time you went.


idk what kind of fish you're eating, but a $30 per person sushi dinner sounds eminently reasonable to me
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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:28 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm not trying to harp just on the food thing, I just think it's emblematic of a larger miscalculation. I've gone out to dinner exactly once this month (yeah, it was sushi, I personally spent $40 because I am not a peasant). I bring my lunch (and often breakfast and dinner) to work every day. Every other meal this month has been at home. I try to be pretty frugal. But what you guys are talking about just isn't realistic when you actually have to do this job IMO.


Look, I understand your position. But if you have to keep justifying your food purchases by emphasizing that you aren't a "peasant", that kind of makes my point for me.

Yes, I think $300 for food for two is probably underestimating a bit (which is why I didn't throw that estimate out). But I also think that regularly buying food at almost quadruple the price (i.e. $4 eggs) is nuts if you're trying to aggressively pay down debt. If you aren't trying to pay that debt down on a harsh schedule, then go crazy.

Again, this is all based on wanting to pay down loans on a very tight schedule. If you don't want to sacrifice quality of life for paying down debt, then that's a fair decision. But you can't claim that it's impossible to pay that debt down just because you think that no one else will make that sacrifice.

I don't think I ever said it was impossible. I certainly don't think it's impossible. But come on. That's my main point: But come on.

(Btw I don't think I've ever seen eggs less than $2 a dozen, are they actually ever cheaper than that?)

Also the peasant thing is a joke bro bro. You actually think $9 a day on food is too much? I guess I could have saved 33 cents on eggs or bought roast beef instead of prosciutto and saved a few more cents but this is America.

People could just load up on literally ramen. But come on.

End of the day I think like 25K-30K could be saved up if you really wanted to be attainably frugal. 40K-50K would be incredibly hard.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:31 pm

TAD wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Go out for Sushi just twice in that month (remember: NOT a peasant) and that's like another $120.


Sorry, perhaps I am missing something, but how the hell do you spend $120 on Sushi just twice? Even If that's for two people, that is about 30$ per person each time you went.

You're right, $30 is pretty low. I spent $40 this weekend. Hamachi sashimi ain't cheap.

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anyriotgirl

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby anyriotgirl » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:34 pm

I don't understand why you rich parents people don't take the money and start a business or invest or something

If I had access to that kind of money in a form other than student loans literally just lol at the idea of going through three years of this to be a big lawyer
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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:38 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:do you know what you have to do to a chicken to get a dozen eggs for 70 cents?


Treat it like livestock, I imagine.

Anyway, this is all far off-topic. Yes, you can always treat eating well as a well-deserved perk of you having hit the big-time. No one is saying that you absolutely must go this route. But come on. You guys make it sound like it's utterly impossible for a single person to live on less than six figures a year.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby anyriotgirl » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:46 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:do you know what you have to do to a chicken to get a dozen eggs for 70 cents?


Treat it like livestock, I imagine.

Anyway, this is all far off-topic. Yes, you can always treat eating well as a well-deserved perk of you having hit the big-time. No one is saying that you absolutely must go this route. But come on. You guys make it sound like it's utterly impossible for a single person to live on less than six figures a year.


you're misconstruing the argument

of course it's possible to live on less than six figures a year. the question is does someone working big law hours want to, or have the self control to, given all the other stressors they have to cope with. frugality takes time, and this person is going to have to make decisions four years from now about how they value their limited time, and if they'd rather spend it batch cooking or doing something else.
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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 9:50 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:do you know what you have to do to a chicken to get a dozen eggs for 70 cents?


Treat it like livestock, I imagine.

Anyway, this is all far off-topic. Yes, you can always treat eating well as a well-deserved perk of you having hit the big-time. No one is saying that you absolutely must go this route. But come on. You guys make it sound like it's utterly impossible for a single person to live on less than six figures a year.


you're misconstruing the argument

of course it's possible to live on less than six figures a year. the question is does someone working big law hours want to, or have the self control to, given all the other stressors they have to cope with. frugality takes time, and this person is going to have to make decisions four years from now about how they value their limited time, and if they'd rather spend it batch cooking or doing something else.


Again, not arguing with that. But it's like saying that losing weight isn't just about diet and exercise. It really is just about that, but willpower, motivation, and someone's general psychology will always be factors. If you don't have the self-control to do something, that doesn't make it impossible; it just means that you don't have the self-control to do it.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby lymenheimer » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:12 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:To be fair, non-NYC biglaw salaries are sometimes a bit lower. I don't know what TX pays, but it isn't $180k.

Ftfy

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby existentialcrisis » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:18 pm

LotsofPrivledge wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:I mean, you *could* take on HLS at sticker and live like a pauper in NYC for 4 years, but you can also attend a lower ranked school and NOT live monastically - especially since you're aiming for NYC BL anyway.

Can you do it? Probably. Should you? I mean, things like saving for home ownership, prepping for a baby, etc. Don't you want to spend that money? All for what? A HLS degree that frankly nobody actually gives a shit about the second you take your first job anyway?


Thank you for bringing this back on track :lol: . You are right, it probably isn't worth it. Hard to turn down Harvard though.


It is almost certainly not worth it. Harvard gives you some downside protection, but not 200k worth, especially because NYC is generally the easiest market to crack from any T14.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby LotsofPrivledge » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:22 pm

BigZuck wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm not trying to harp just on the food thing, I just think it's emblematic of a larger miscalculation. I've gone out to dinner exactly once this month (yeah, it was sushi, I personally spent $40 because I am not a peasant). I bring my lunch (and often breakfast and dinner) to work every day. Every other meal this month has been at home. I try to be pretty frugal. But what you guys are talking about just isn't realistic when you actually have to do this job IMO.


Look, I understand your position. But if you have to keep justifying your food purchases by emphasizing that you aren't a "peasant", that kind of makes my point for me.

Yes, I think $300 for food for two is probably underestimating a bit (which is why I didn't throw that estimate out). But I also think that regularly buying food at almost quadruple the price (i.e. $4 eggs) is nuts if you're trying to aggressively pay down debt. If you aren't trying to pay that debt down on a harsh schedule, then go crazy.

Again, this is all based on wanting to pay down loans on a very tight schedule. If you don't want to sacrifice quality of life for paying down debt, then that's a fair decision. But you can't claim that it's impossible to pay that debt down just because you think that no one else will make that sacrifice.

I don't think I ever said it was impossible. I certainly don't think it's impossible. But come on. That's my main point: But come on.

(Btw I don't think I've ever seen eggs less than $2 a dozen, are they actually ever cheaper than that?)

Also the peasant thing is a joke bro bro. You actually think $9 a day on food is too much? I guess I could have saved 33 cents on eggs or bought roast beef instead of prosciutto and saved a few more cents but this is America.

People could just load up on literally ramen. But come on.

End of the day I think like 25K-30K could be saved up if you really wanted to be attainably frugal. 40K-50K would be incredibly hard.


I have yet to see a budget here that would have me only paying down 25-30k a year. What things in my previous budget was I missing? How much do you think a couple should budget for food, entertainment, miscellaneous?

Also this is all assuming a first year biglaw salary and that my SOs salary would be 50k. Second year and third year I would make considerably more. So if it is borderline year one (I don't think it is) then it is definitely easily doable year two and beyond.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby LotsofPrivledge » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:26 pm

anyriotgirl wrote:I don't understand why you rich parents people don't take the money and start a business or invest or something

If I had access to that kind of money in a form other than student loans literally just lol at the idea of going through three years of this to be a big lawyer


Businesses aren't a very sure thing, and I don't really have any aspirations to own one. This isn't free money, I am taking an interest free loan from them so that I can go into a field with almost guaranteed ability to pay it back. They wouldn't loan me 300k to start a restaurant.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:30 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:do you know what you have to do to a chicken to get a dozen eggs for 70 cents?


Treat it like livestock, I imagine.

Anyway, this is all far off-topic. Yes, you can always treat eating well as a well-deserved perk of you having hit the big-time. No one is saying that you absolutely must go this route. But come on. You guys make it sound like it's utterly impossible for a single person to live on less than six figures a year.


you're misconstruing the argument

of course it's possible to live on less than six figures a year. the question is does someone working big law hours want to, or have the self control to, given all the other stressors they have to cope with. frugality takes time, and this person is going to have to make decisions four years from now about how they value their limited time, and if they'd rather spend it batch cooking or doing something else.


Again, not arguing with that. But it's like saying that losing weight isn't just about diet and exercise. It really is just about that, but willpower, motivation, and someone's general psychology will always be factors. If you don't have the self-control to do something, that doesn't make it impossible; it just means that you don't have the self-control to do it.

Given how few people succeed on diets and how many of them gain it all back again (which is statistically most of them), this analogy doesn't really help you.

And yeah, I agree that mathematically it's possible. And if you make it work, that's great - I get that $180k is a shitload of money (I don't make it). But also agree that being actually confronted with making these choices is a lot harder in practice than thinking about them four years before, especially if you're miserable and hating your job (not saying that is the case for Zuck/will be the case for everyone in biglaw, but it is for many).

I'm also not saying you won't be able to save a good chunk and pay off loans fairly quickly. Just maybe being a little more conservative with the estimate is more realistic - I feel like estimating for the most drastic savings/frugal lifestyle possible is sort of setting oneself up for failure (to meet that goal, at least).

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby LotsofPrivledge » Sun Jan 22, 2017 10:39 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:do you know what you have to do to a chicken to get a dozen eggs for 70 cents?


Treat it like livestock, I imagine.

Anyway, this is all far off-topic. Yes, you can always treat eating well as a well-deserved perk of you having hit the big-time. No one is saying that you absolutely must go this route. But come on. You guys make it sound like it's utterly impossible for a single person to live on less than six figures a year.


you're misconstruing the argument

of course it's possible to live on less than six figures a year. the question is does someone working big law hours want to, or have the self control to, given all the other stressors they have to cope with. frugality takes time, and this person is going to have to make decisions four years from now about how they value their limited time, and if they'd rather spend it batch cooking or doing something else.


Again, not arguing with that. But it's like saying that losing weight isn't just about diet and exercise. It really is just about that, but willpower, motivation, and someone's general psychology will always be factors. If you don't have the self-control to do something, that doesn't make it impossible; it just means that you don't have the self-control to do it.

Given how few people succeed on diets and how many of them gain it all back again (which is statistically most of them), this analogy doesn't really help you.

And yeah, I agree that mathematically it's possible. And if you make it work, that's great - I get that $180k is a shitload of money (I don't make it). But also agree that being actually confronted with making these choices is a lot harder in practice than thinking about them four years before, especially if you're miserable and hating your job (not saying that is the case for Zuck/will be the case for everyone in biglaw, but it is for many).

I'm also not saying you won't be able to save a good chunk and pay off loans fairly quickly. Just maybe being a little more conservative with the estimate is more realistic - I feel like estimating for the most drastic savings/frugal lifestyle possible is sort of setting oneself up for failure (to meet that goal, at least).


That is a good point. I agree thaat being conservative is better. Even if I opted for an 8 year plan to pay my parents back at $25k per year, that is still not terrible. The fantastic part of the interest free loan is that the length of payment doesn't really matter. However, obviously I will pay back as quickly as possible. I don't want to drag it out and disrespect my parents generosity.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:37 pm

LotsofPrivledge wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm not trying to harp just on the food thing, I just think it's emblematic of a larger miscalculation. I've gone out to dinner exactly once this month (yeah, it was sushi, I personally spent $40 because I am not a peasant). I bring my lunch (and often breakfast and dinner) to work every day. Every other meal this month has been at home. I try to be pretty frugal. But what you guys are talking about just isn't realistic when you actually have to do this job IMO.


Look, I understand your position. But if you have to keep justifying your food purchases by emphasizing that you aren't a "peasant", that kind of makes my point for me.

Yes, I think $300 for food for two is probably underestimating a bit (which is why I didn't throw that estimate out). But I also think that regularly buying food at almost quadruple the price (i.e. $4 eggs) is nuts if you're trying to aggressively pay down debt. If you aren't trying to pay that debt down on a harsh schedule, then go crazy.

Again, this is all based on wanting to pay down loans on a very tight schedule. If you don't want to sacrifice quality of life for paying down debt, then that's a fair decision. But you can't claim that it's impossible to pay that debt down just because you think that no one else will make that sacrifice.

I don't think I ever said it was impossible. I certainly don't think it's impossible. But come on. That's my main point: But come on.

(Btw I don't think I've ever seen eggs less than $2 a dozen, are they actually ever cheaper than that?)

Also the peasant thing is a joke bro bro. You actually think $9 a day on food is too much? I guess I could have saved 33 cents on eggs or bought roast beef instead of prosciutto and saved a few more cents but this is America.

People could just load up on literally ramen. But come on.

End of the day I think like 25K-30K could be saved up if you really wanted to be attainably frugal. 40K-50K would be incredibly hard.


I have yet to see a budget here that would have me only paying down 25-30k a year. What things in my previous budget was I missing? How much do you think a couple should budget for food, entertainment, miscellaneous?

Also this is all assuming a first year biglaw salary and that my SOs salary would be 50k. Second year and third year I would make considerably more. So if it is borderline year one (I don't think it is) then it is definitely easily doable year two and beyond.

After your first 3 or so posts I responded because you said you could easily pay off 50K a year. To that point I hadn't read anything about a ghost spouse chipping in 50K. It's possible that I missed it but when I initially questioned the math I'm pretty sure there was no spouse. Now that I know about your phantasm spouse I'm a bit more optimistic about your ability to pay off 50K a year if you're diligent about saving.

I think it would be very difficult to save 50K on a 180K salary. I acknowledge it would be significantly easier on a 230K salary.

I still think 300 a month in food is bonkers (even if your spouse is a ghost who is incapable of eating). It makes me question your other numbers somewhat but you're in the best position to asses those so I'll defer to you.

I think your take home will be closer to 135K-140K. My spouse and I take home 150K and we don't pay state (or city) income tax and our pretax is a decent clip more than 230K. I might have screwed up the W-2s though I guess.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:25 am

LotsofPrivledge wrote:However, obviously I will pay back as quickly as possible. I don't want to drag it out and disrespect my parents generosity.

Right, which is why this is a pretty personal decision. Maybe this is one of those wink wink loans that you'll never have to actually pay back, or maybe you'll be terribly burdened by having this intra-family loan hanging over your head. But assuming the normal situation here I would recommend that anyone targeting NYC biglaw take the money at the lower T-14. At the very least play out the cycle and see how things look in a couple of months.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby AJordan » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:42 am

ITT someone eats a lb of ground chicken by himself in one day. It takes my wife and me two days to eat a lb of meat. Granted, I'm not seeking gains in the gym but that seems like a lot.

My wife and I together do not eat 9 bucks of food per day. Getting a good rice cooker has saved me a ton of money. Big bags of rice are so economical when it comes to sustenance. Cook a big dinner, eat the leftovers for lunch the next day. Make your coffee at home. 300/month for two is definitely doable.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby Kaziende » Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:32 am

Would be interested in seeing more budgets of people in NYC biglaw and loan repayment schedules. Is there a thread devoted to that?

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby dabigchina » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:53 am

It's a lot easier to be disciplined when you are not stressed the fuck out and sleep deprived. A regular human being can only muster so much discipline. I get the feeling biglaw is going to use a substantial amount of that discipline up. I know it did for my old job.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby heythatslife » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:38 am

AJordan wrote:ITT someone eats a lb of ground chicken by himself in one day. It takes my wife and me two days to eat a lb of meat. Granted, I'm not seeking gains in the gym but that seems like a lot.

My wife and I together do not eat 9 bucks of food per day. Getting a good rice cooker has saved me a ton of money. Big bags of rice are so economical when it comes to sustenance. Cook a big dinner, eat the leftovers for lunch the next day. Make your coffee at home. 300/month for two is definitely doable.

It's easier to plan ahead, shop frugally, and cook regularly to save money when you have a stable 9-5 job. Not so when you have a biglaw gig where you have little idea when your next dinner at home will be, or even when you do, you may be too tired to cook.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby katthegreat11 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:50 am

I highly recommend everyone check out r/personalfinance on reddit- you can find a lot of stories of people paying off $100k+ in law school or other student debt in an extremely short amount of time. How do they do it? Strict budgeting and avoiding lifestyle creep.

I think an important point here is that no one is saying one way is better than the other. It is entirely a matter of priorities. If you prioritize paying off your debt as quickly as possible, by making sacrifices in your apartment, meals, "fun" purchases, retirement savings, etc. you will be able to do it on a biglaw salary. But if you don't want to, because you just worked damn hard for three years and you want to spend your hard-earned money, then do so! Take the 10 years or whatever to pay off the debt! That is 100% fine!

I personally want to take the former route and get rid of my debt as fast as possible, so that I have the freedom to change jobs if I am unhappy- and so I'm not totally screwed if I lose my biglaw job. I am planning on living the same way on a $180k salary as I do now on a $43k salary until my debt is paid off. My current expenses (living in downtown DC with a roommate) are about $2000 a month (including rent, utilities, food, transportation, and fun stuff). I am confident I can live similarly and pay off close to $50k a year after law school.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby waldorf » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:57 am

dabigchina wrote:It's a lot easier to be disciplined when you are not stressed the fuck out and sleep deprived. A regular human being can only muster so much discipline. I get the feeling biglaw is going to use a substantial amount of that discipline up. I know it did for my old job.


Amen. Obviously a lowly 0L here, but I remember when I worked political campaigns and was sleeping 3 hours a night and working 15 hours a day, 6 days a week, and 8 hours on Sundays. I had NO time to cook and when I had any free time at all, I wanted to see my family or friends and have a drink, take a nap, literally anything other than slaving away in the kitchen. Not to mention that sleep deprivation = hunger for a lot of people, since you have to make up for that lost energy. You might find it easier to just pick up lunch or dinner than to cook.

With a spouse though, it might be different, if she has a more 9-5 job where she can pick up the groceries, do meal prep on Sundays for the both of you, etc (I have found meal prepping for the entire week in one day to be incredibly helpful in avoiding eating out and saving time during the week).

Another thing to think about - you've just spent three years budgeting. When you finally have a decent salary, won't you want to be able to finally do things you couldn't afford before (like more meals out, etc)?

I definitely think what you're thinking of can be done, but it requires a lot of sacrifice. A lot of people simply don't have the self control and aren't willing to live a certain way, especially once they're making the kind of money that they never have before.

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Re: Money is being loaned by my parents; decision?

Postby dabigchina » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:17 pm

i mean lifestyle creep is definitely not a great thing, but OP should really ask himself why he wants to kill himself working in NYC biglaw just to live like a pauper so he can pay off his debts.

Sure he gets the satisfaction of being a "Harvard man," but who cares.



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