Choosing Schools Advice

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mjb447
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby mjb447 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:02 pm

SN2006 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Yeah, you're in a good situation. Your LSAT score is well above average, you beat 85% of the people taking it!(They were advising a 166 to retake on another thread lol) Your GPA is objectively great even by most of the retake crowd's standards. With no debt I don't see how this is a problem(the main critique most people get on here is taking out arguably to much debt to justify a schools employment prospects). I see where they're coming from to an extent wanting to make sure you want to be a lawyer, but if you weren't considering practicing law why would you be on here? I also agree 1000% on the whole undergrad jobs not being worth it point. For me part of the appeal of Law School is to be able to go from school straight into somewhat meaningful work(also desperately want to escape my hometown). I'm a 0L but one part of the consensus on here I agree with wholeheartedly(that the rest of them will probably agree with) is to go to school wherever you want to live/practice. The hardest obstacle in my decision right now is selecting between three regions(when I get all my decisions I'm going to make a thread on it). Go to whatever region you like(with the possible exception of Indiana or DC, even if your parents are paying for it that's a ton of money you probably shouldn't pay if you're not in love with either of those places). Ohio State is more justifiable. If I were in your shoes though I would probably go with the consensus on here among the people who gave you advice and go to Pitt(I have no interest or bias towards any of the regions you're looking at, so for me and most outside observers I'd guess, free wins). I would also think over if you wanted to be a lawyer(I don't think anyone needs to take several years to think about that though) if you have any uncertainty in your mind. Best of Luck!


Please stop giving advice to people. And especially please stop giving advice based on that idiotic metric of your "You did better than [X]% of test-takers," mantra. Most people who go to law school shouldn't be going to law school, and having a mediocre LSAT (yes, 160 after 3 takes is, in fact, mediocre) should not be seen as a rubber stamp of approval that a legal career is the right thing to do.

OP: Everyone's point (except for the one 0L who is convinced that law school is a great choice for everyone who doesn't know what they want in life) is precisely that you are too young to be making this decision. You're about to invest three years of your life and a not-insignificant amount of money into a career path that you have already said you don't want to stay in. The fact that the above poster has not bothered to actually read your career goals should not be filling you with confidence, and you should seriously be questioning why you've responded most warmly to that post instead of the majority of other posters who are either law students, lawyers, or ex-lawyers. Look up "confirmation bias", and ask yourself if it's operating here.


Well first off, I'm not going to deny the confirmation bias completely, everyone has bias and I know that. But truthfully, I just keep noticing this gloomy outlook, especially regarding non T14 schools. It almost sounds like everyone who doesn't go to them is doomed. I obviously know things would be easier graduating from one of those schools, but at the same time, I don't hinge my success in life to the school I attend. By the same token, plenty of people graduated from Harvard and really aren't doing incredible things. I've decided to really only apply to schools now that would be close to free, if not totally, so I also would not call it a "non-insignificant amount of money." Lastly, we have the rest of our lives to work, so I don't see this rush to start working; if I wanted, I could work part-time second and third years of school.


Leave rankings aside for a moment.

You do not want to be a lawyer for more than a few years.

You should not go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer long enough for law school to be a net profitable investment, including the loss from what you might be doing otherwise. There's very weak evidence that a JD will help you in business, and it may harm you if employers view you as overqualified or are unconvinced that you are dedicated to business over the practice of law. The fact that other lawyers have ultimately stumbled into careers in business should be virtually irrelevant to your ex ante planning.

You should not go to law school (any law school) at this time.

BigZuck
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:08 pm

Honestly, even saying "I want to do business" or "I want to be a businessman" or "I want to run my own business" as a 21 year old is kind of bizarre to me. Might just be me projecting but if (and I'm assuming here) you haven't ever held down a real job, paid for your own living expenses, basically just done adult stuff, how do you even know that that's what you want? That's part of why I say get a job and work for a while. Spending 3 years of your life to enter a specific vocation is an adult decision to make. Go be an adult for a while.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:14 pm

SN2006 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Where do you want to work, geographically?

Fyi, OP is not k-jd.


Most likely Pittsburgh/Philly after graduation, but I would also like to move South when I'm older if I had the chance.


K. Of those options, probably Ohio State.

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Thomas Hagan, ESQ.
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby Thomas Hagan, ESQ. » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:Honestly, even saying "I want to do business" or "I want to be a businessman" or "I want to run my own business" as a 21 year old is kind of bizarre to me. Might just be me projecting but if (and I'm assuming here) you haven't ever held down a real job, paid for your own living expenses, basically just done adult stuff, how do you even know that that's what you want? That's part of why I say get a job and work for a while. Spending 3 years of your life to enter a specific vocation is an adult decision to make. Go be an adult for a while.


+1

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Ferrisjso
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:28 pm

BigZuck wrote:Honestly, even saying "I want to do business" or "I want to be a businessman" or "I want to run my own business" as a 21 year old is kind of bizarre to me. Might just be me projecting but if (and I'm assuming here) you haven't ever held down a real job, paid for your own living expenses, basically just done adult stuff, how do you even know that that's what you want? That's part of why I say get a job and work for a while. Spending 3 years of your life to enter a specific vocation is an adult decision to make. Go be an adult for a while.


Yes implying someone isn't mature because they don't fit your arbitrary standards of mature, is certainly going to persuade them to listen to your advice.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:10 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Honestly, even saying "I want to do business" or "I want to be a businessman" or "I want to run my own business" as a 21 year old is kind of bizarre to me. Might just be me projecting but if (and I'm assuming here) you haven't ever held down a real job, paid for your own living expenses, basically just done adult stuff, how do you even know that that's what you want? That's part of why I say get a job and work for a while. Spending 3 years of your life to enter a specific vocation is an adult decision to make. Go be an adult for a while.


Yes implying someone isn't mature because they don't fit your arbitrary standards of mature, is certainly going to persuade them to listen to your advice.


And patting them on the head as they do something they shouldn't is better?

Would you be saying the same thing if this were a board about medical schools and the OP said that they just wanted to be a doctor for a few years before moving on to their real career?

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Ferrisjso
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:38 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Honestly, even saying "I want to do business" or "I want to be a businessman" or "I want to run my own business" as a 21 year old is kind of bizarre to me. Might just be me projecting but if (and I'm assuming here) you haven't ever held down a real job, paid for your own living expenses, basically just done adult stuff, how do you even know that that's what you want? That's part of why I say get a job and work for a while. Spending 3 years of your life to enter a specific vocation is an adult decision to make. Go be an adult for a while.


Yes implying someone isn't mature because they don't fit your arbitrary standards of mature, is certainly going to persuade them to listen to your advice.


And patting them on the head as they do something they shouldn't is better?

Would you be saying the same thing if this were a board about medical schools and the OP said that they just wanted to be a doctor for a few years before moving on to their real career?


The poster is not taking on debt and even if he were he has a choice that is free and several more that are pretty close to being free. I do not think it is a bad decision. The OP simply made the mistake of listing his other aspirations and now he's being grilled for "not wanting to be a lawyer". If he didn't want to be on a lawyer why would he have taken the LSAT, applied to schools and go on a law forum asking for advice? A "few years" is pretty ambiguous(I want to run for office at some point, does that inherently mean I don't want to be a lawyer?). Even people who get the coveted Big Law jobs that many on here are obsessed with are usually out within a few years(I don't know much about medicine but I can't imagine it being the same). It just comes across like you're actively trying to discourage as many sub 170's from going to law school as possible. This highlights that because the OP would be taking out no debt and has pretty good options and yet people are still working overtime to "save" OP. Save him from what? He's got no debt. I feel like the consensus on here(and by here I don't mean TLS I mean this specific thread) is that all 0L's are just a bunch of idiots who don't know how to think for themselves.

In regards to Big Zucker's point before about lawyers giving advice, this is not legal practice, this is a forum. I also highly doubt you would use lines like "You know how you look back on your 15 year old self and you think "Man, that guy/girl was kind of an idiot"? That's what you'll think of your 21 year old self when you're 27." with your legal clients. There are cases where people will ignore you because you give the impression of being a jerk, even if you are right(and you aren't here, you simply seem to think 21 year olds aren't capable of thinking through whether law school is a good idea or not).

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:08 pm

Even if "free" someone is paying for it. And there's a huge time/emotional investment. And the OP said they don't even want to be a lawyer. Having a JD isn't all necessarily a net positive.

Grilled? It's a free message board, he doesn't have to read it if he doesn't want to.

Lots of people just kind of drift through life and end up at places like law school without giving it a whole lot of thought. Shit, maybe people advising the OP have done that themselves and are speaking from experience!

You have a weird chip on your shoulder about things TLS allegedly says when TLS doesn't actually say those things. No one is trying to actively discourage sub-170s from law school, that's dumb.

Plenty of people are idiots, that's not exclusively a 0L problem. But you don't seem to really comprehend what you're reading if that's a take-away that you have.

Of course this is a forum, I said that. My point was about the types of people who post on here and give advice. Who they are at their very core. They're not just going to turn that off. Why should they?

I've heard some great lawyers say things much more crass than that to clients who pay them metric buttloads of money each year.

I don't know what each and every 21 year old is capable of. I admitted I may have been projecting. I do know what I think of my early 20s self, and I think most of my peers would feel similarly about themselves at the same age. I could be wrong. Anyway I've also seen more than one K-JDer end up with an objectively fantastic outcome (as far as law school outcomes go) only to realize it's not what they want to be doing with their life. At all. That sucks. It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand. I'm sure that's not a problem exclusive limited to K-JDers. But from my limited experience (and, of course, YMMV) they seem to struggle from that affliction more than people who took a few years off.

All that ignores the fact that your early 20s should be spent doing way more fun things than law school/being a lawyer (not to say law school can't also be a fun extended vacation in and of itself as well, of course)

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mjb447
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby mjb447 » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:11 pm

Ferrisjso wrote: I feel like the consensus on here(and by here I don't mean TLS I mean this specific thread) is that all 0L's are just a bunch of idiots who don't know how to think for themselves...

... you simply seem to think 21 year olds aren't capable of thinking through whether law school is a good idea or not.

For me, the fact that you might be 0Ls/21 is immaterial. People of all ages and backgrounds can be mistaken about whether law school is what they should do with their time and (family) money. Given OP's stated goals, there doesn't seem to be a good reason for him to go to law school.

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Ferrisjso
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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby Ferrisjso » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:32 am

BigZuck wrote:Even if "free" someone is paying for it. And there's a huge time/emotional investment. And the OP said they don't even want to be a lawyer. Having a JD isn't all necessarily a net positive.

Grilled? It's a free message board, he doesn't have to read it if he doesn't want to.

Lots of people just kind of drift through life and end up at places like law school without giving it a whole lot of thought. Shit, maybe people advising the OP have done that themselves and are speaking from experience!

You have a weird chip on your shoulder about things TLS allegedly says when TLS doesn't actually say those things. No one is trying to actively discourage sub-170s from law school, that's dumb.

Plenty of people are idiots, that's not exclusively a 0L problem. But you don't seem to really comprehend what you're reading if that's a take-away that you have.

Of course this is a forum, I said that. My point was about the types of people who post on here and give advice. Who they are at their very core. They're not just going to turn that off. Why should they?

I've heard some great lawyers say things much more crass than that to clients who pay them metric buttloads of money each year.

I don't know what each and every 21 year old is capable of. I admitted I may have been projecting. I do know what I think of my early 20s self, and I think most of my peers would feel similarly about themselves at the same age. I could be wrong. Anyway I've also seen more than one K-JDer end up with an objectively fantastic outcome (as far as law school outcomes go) only to realize it's not what they want to be doing with their life. At all. That sucks. It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand. I'm sure that's not a problem exclusive limited to K-JDers. But from my limited experience (and, of course, YMMV) they seem to struggle from that affliction more than people who took a few years off.

All that ignores the fact that your early 20s should be spent doing way more fun things than law school/being a lawyer (not to say law school can't also be a fun extended vacation in and of itself as well, of course)


A lot of fair points, I agree with at least somewhat. The OP didn't say they didn't want to be a lawyer though. The OP simply brought up other potential aspirations. He only said he didn't want Big Law. I can understand your perspective on how your 20's should be fun but we live in a world where for many that just isn't possible(as sad as it is). Some 0L's simply can't stand their lives(like myself) and are looking at law school as a way out of that. Your life can be in ruins before you make a potentially destructive decision(risk is low for OP, I'm talking in general here) and this is precisely the reason people take risks. I constantly read about all the things people can lose by going to law school (years of salary at other jobs, other desirable jobs, having fun and enjoying your life, financial security). What if people don't have any of that though and law school offers them a chance to do something they're interested in and have a happier life? If the average American had a life they were satisfied with, warning them they might be ruining it would be a bit more compelling. OP most certainly doesn't seem to have financial problems but maybe he/she simply doesn't want to sit around a few years doing nothing. Seeing as OP seems like they don't have financial issues and wasn't satisfied with post undergrad employment opportunities that's probably what they would be doing. Yeah an MBA might be a good idea for OP if starting a business is a bigger priority for them then practicing law but shouldn't everyone simply be answering his question about what his best option is among the ones listed? He probably has done at least a bit of research into law school and legal employment if he's taken the LSAT and applied to schools.

I also agree with mjb447 that people of all ages and backgrounds can be mistaken abut whether law school is right or wrong for them. That's a two way street though, what if OP really likes law? It's stupid to take out loans to try things out(my disdain for the whole "figure out what you like" philosophy in undergrad can't be measured in words) and if he were perhaps it'd be a horrible idea(and assuming he didn't want to do law already, which he hasn't actually said, people have just made that inference from his first post) but he's in a situation where he wouldn't be a risk.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:01 am

I think everyone is reacting to
Overall, I'm more interested in a career in business.

And the reason they're reacting so strongly is that there is a prevalent layperson belief/myth that a law degree is versatile and can take you in many different directions, not limited to law, when people who've actually been to law school know that this is really not the case. Trying to get into a non-legal field with a JD, the JD can actually hurt you. It's true that there are lots of people in the world with JDs who ultimately do non-law things, but there's a correlation/causation problem in assuming they do those things at all because of the JD. People certainly do end up in many different places, and they may well make use of the experience they get as a JD to get there. But, especially given how much a JD can be an obstacle to getting hired in another field (especially if you don't have any prior/independent experience in that field), saying "I want to go to law school even though overall I'm more interested in a career in business" suggests a really roundabout and unnecessary path to what you really want to do.

(That said, I'm not entirely sure what the OP even means by "a career in business," so maybe it the JD is more pertinent, who knows?)

If the OP decides this is the correct path for them, more power to them, that's great. But they do need to know what they can accurately expect. If they decide to go ahead fully-informed, that's totally their choice.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby mjb447 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:10 pm

Well put; that's exactly what I was trying to get at with the bolded:

mjb447 wrote:Leave rankings aside for a moment.

You do not want to be a lawyer for more than a few years.

You should not go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer long enough for law school to be a net profitable investment, including the loss from what you might be doing otherwise. There's very weak evidence that a JD will help you in business, and it may harm you if employers view you as overqualified or are unconvinced that you are dedicated to business over the practice of law. The fact that other lawyers have ultimately stumbled into careers in business should be virtually irrelevant to your ex ante planning.

You should not go to law school (any law school) at this time.


See also http://www.slate.com/articles/life/cult ... annot.html (a little snarky for my taste but makes some decent points about employability and opportunity cost of law school).

The fact that OP's law degree won't put him in debt doesn't mean that it's costless or that there's no downside. It's a particularly big gamble to take if OP's ultimate goal is to be more on the business side of things - a law degree is likely to be harmful to these aspirations or at least unlikely to help much. That's all. I think we're just trying to make sure OP has considered as many factors as possible given what he seems to want to do.

N.B. - I say all this as a K-JD who decided to go to law school in his senior year of college because he had no direction in a bad economy. I seem to have nevertheless stumbled into a series of fulfilling jobs, so what do I know?

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby addie1412 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:09 pm

BigZuck wrote:It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand.


I feel like what TLS misses a lot of the time is that this exact same thing can often be said of the average humanities graduate working a vastly unfulfilling job he/she's overqualified for and looking to law school as a means of achieving something marginally more meaningful. You say "oh just work for three years" as though each day (or, more accurately, each hour ) in a menial, low-level, low-paying position doesn't creep by at a positively glacial pace. Certainly, there are opportunities worth delaying law school for. And there are opportunities worth skipping law school for entirely. The life choices of every single STEM major on this board astound me, for example. But there are people for whom the decision to delay law school would beg the question: "to do what, exactly?" Sometimes the answer to that question truly isn't worth a year of someone's life, if we're being honest. I think TLS could stand to be a little more nuanced in its advice to take time off before law school rather than painting all pre-LS jobs/opportunities with the same broad brush.

Just my $0.02 as someone whose brilliant best friend works part-time at a bookstore with a 3.8 and bachelor's in History (and who has expressed something similar to the quoted part many times).

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:24 pm

addie1412 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand.


I feel like what TLS misses a lot of the time is that this exact same thing can often be said of the average humanities graduate working a vastly unfulfilling job he/she's overqualified for and looking to law school as a means of achieving something marginally more meaningful. You say "oh just work for three years" as though each day (or, more accurately, each hour ) in a menial, low-level, low-paying position doesn't creep by at a positively glacial pace. Certainly, there are opportunities worth delaying law school for. And there are opportunities worth skipping law school for entirely. The life choices of every single STEM major on this board astound me, for example. But there are people for whom the decision to delay law school would beg the question: "to do what, exactly?" Sometimes the answer to that question truly isn't worth a year of someone's life, if we're being honest. I think TLS could stand to be a little more nuanced in its advice to take time off before law school rather than painting all pre-LS jobs/opportunities with the same broad brush.

Just my $0.02 as someone whose brilliant best friend works part-time at a bookstore with a 3.8 and bachelor's in History (and who has expressed something similar to the quoted part many times).


The problem is that your brilliant best friend isn't going to solve their problems by spending three years of their life training for a career and a few more finding out they really didn't like that either. I'd bet good money that your friend knows precisely what they'd be happy doing, but they just haven't been able to break into that career track yet. Law school is not a viable alternative to that if someone doesn't actually want a legal career.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby addie1412 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:38 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
addie1412 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand.


I feel like what TLS misses a lot of the time is that this exact same thing can often be said of the average humanities graduate working a vastly unfulfilling job he/she's overqualified for and looking to law school as a means of achieving something marginally more meaningful. You say "oh just work for three years" as though each day (or, more accurately, each hour ) in a menial, low-level, low-paying position doesn't creep by at a positively glacial pace. Certainly, there are opportunities worth delaying law school for. And there are opportunities worth skipping law school for entirely. The life choices of every single STEM major on this board astound me, for example. But there are people for whom the decision to delay law school would beg the question: "to do what, exactly?" Sometimes the answer to that question truly isn't worth a year of someone's life, if we're being honest. I think TLS could stand to be a little more nuanced in its advice to take time off before law school rather than painting all pre-LS jobs/opportunities with the same broad brush.

Just my $0.02 as someone whose brilliant best friend works part-time at a bookstore with a 3.8 and bachelor's in History (and who has expressed something similar to the quoted part many times).


The problem is that your brilliant best friend isn't going to solve their problems by spending three years of their life training for a career and a few more finding out they really didn't like that either. I'd bet good money that your friend knows precisely what they'd be happy doing, but they just haven't been able to break into that career track yet. Law school is not a viable alternative to that if someone doesn't actually want a legal career.


So, on the one hand, a 22-year-old who says they'd be happy doing biglaw would be told by the masses on TLS that they're young and really have no clue. On the other hand, you'd bet good money that my 22-year-old friend knows precisely what they'd be happy doing. On the one hand, a prospective law student who says they want to be an international lawyer is told they're chasing a "unicorn job" that likely doesn't exist. On the other hand, you just characterized my friend who wants to be a college history professor as just not being "able to break into that career track yet," as though such a job were any less unicorny and any more accessible. I'm sensing some inconsistency here/bias against law in particular.

The fact is, there are college grads everywhere entertaining dreams of unrealistic careers. The vast majority will be disappointed. Work is work, and "doing what makes you happy" is overrated and almost impossible to plan for. Doing what doesn't make you miserable is a much more appropriate standard and far easier to predict ahead of time. I think there are a non-insignificant number of students in certain post-grad situations for whom law would meet just that standard and provide a decent living in the process.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:46 pm

addie1412 wrote:So, on the one hand, a 22-year-old who says they'd be happy doing biglaw would be told by the masses on TLS that they're young and really have no clue. On the other hand, you'd bet good money that my 22-year-old friend knows precisely what they'd be happy doing. On the one hand, a prospective law student who says they want to be an international lawyer is told they're chasing a "unicorn job" that likely doesn't exist. On the other hand, you just characterized my friend who wants to be a college history professor as just not being "able to break into that career track yet," as though such a job were any less unicorny and any more accessible. I'm sensing some inconsistency here/bias against law in particular.

The fact is, there are college grads everywhere entertaining dreams of unrealistic careers. The vast majority will be disappointed. Work is work, and "doing what makes you happy" is overrated and almost impossible to plan for. Doing what doesn't make you miserable is a much more appropriate standard and far easier to predict ahead of time. I think there are a non-significant number of students in certain post-grad situations for whom law would meet just that standard and provide a decent living in the process.


First of all, this 22-year-old OP specifically said they would not be happy doing biglaw, and they did specifically say what they would like to do. You also didn't reveal your friend's age or their career ambitions, but kudos for... making a point... I guess?

Doing what makes you miserable is a fine ambition for anyone who has given up on life, and I certainly don't want to stop you from giving that horrifically depressing advice. They just shouldn't get in debt following that path. And they certainly shouldn't be going into professional training school for a career that is already over-saturated.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby addie1412 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:50 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
addie1412 wrote:So, on the one hand, a 22-year-old who says they'd be happy doing biglaw would be told by the masses on TLS that they're young and really have no clue. On the other hand, you'd bet good money that my 22-year-old friend knows precisely what they'd be happy doing. On the one hand, a prospective law student who says they want to be an international lawyer is told they're chasing a "unicorn job" that likely doesn't exist. On the other hand, you just characterized my friend who wants to be a college history professor as just not being "able to break into that career track yet," as though such a job were any less unicorny and any more accessible. I'm sensing some inconsistency here/bias against law in particular.

The fact is, there are college grads everywhere entertaining dreams of unrealistic careers. The vast majority will be disappointed. Work is work, and "doing what makes you happy" is overrated and almost impossible to plan for. Doing what doesn't make you miserable is a much more appropriate standard and far easier to predict ahead of time. I think there are a non-significant number of students in certain post-grad situations for whom law would meet just that standard and provide a decent living in the process.


First of all, this 22-year-old OP specifically said they would not be happy doing biglaw, and they did specifically say what they would like to do. You also didn't reveal your friend's age or their career ambitions, but kudos for... making a point... I guess?

Doing what makes you miserable is a fine ambition for anyone who has given up on life, and I certainly don't want to stop you from giving that horrifically depressing advice. They just shouldn't get in debt following that path. And they certainly shouldn't be going into professional training school for a career that is already over-saturated.


If you read carefully, I said "doing what DOESN'T make you miserable" as opposed to the overly dreamy "doing what makes you happy." There's a fine line between accepting a career you hate and wasting an inordinate amount of time ~figuring out what u want in life~, especially when that will likely turn out to be something entirely unrealistic.

Also, I did not mean for this to apply to OP. Just general commentary on TLS wisdom.

OP should probably retake.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby cavalier1138 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:52 pm

addie1412 wrote:Also, I did not mean for this to apply to OP. Just general commentary on TLS wisdom.

OP should probably retake.


Then maybe next time you should read the OP.

This OP actually has great options for regional small-to-mid-law practice. They just don't actually want to be a lawyer.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby addie1412 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:56 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
addie1412 wrote:Also, I did not mean for this to apply to OP. Just general commentary on TLS wisdom.

OP should probably retake.


Then maybe next time you should read the OP.

This OP actually has great options for regional small-to-mid-law practice. They just don't actually want to be a lawyer.


I did read the OP and had nothing to add to what's already been said.

BigZuck's quote I responded to (which seemed more general in nature) struck a particular chord; that's all I meant to comment upon.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:24 pm

addie1412 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand.


I feel like what TLS misses a lot of the time is that this exact same thing can often be said of the average humanities graduate working a vastly unfulfilling job he/she's overqualified for and looking to law school as a means of achieving something marginally more meaningful. You say "oh just work for three years" as though each day (or, more accurately, each hour ) in a menial, low-level, low-paying position doesn't creep by at a positively glacial pace. Certainly, there are opportunities worth delaying law school for. And there are opportunities worth skipping law school for entirely. The life choices of every single STEM major on this board astound me, for example. But there are people for whom the decision to delay law school would beg the question: "to do what, exactly?" Sometimes the answer to that question truly isn't worth a year of someone's life, if we're being honest. I think TLS could stand to be a little more nuanced in its advice to take time off before law school rather than painting all pre-LS jobs/opportunities with the same broad brush.

Just my $0.02 as someone whose brilliant best friend works part-time at a bookstore with a 3.8 and bachelor's in History (and who has expressed something similar to the quoted part many times).


This!!

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby Ferrisjso » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:27 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
addie1412 wrote:Also, I did not mean for this to apply to OP. Just general commentary on TLS wisdom.

OP should probably retake.


Then maybe next time you should read the OP.

This OP actually has great options for regional small-to-mid-law practice. They just don't actually want to be a lawyer.


Cavalier, OP never said that he just brought up goals of his outside of the law. Having goals outside of the law does not inherently mean one does not want to be a lawyer.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:52 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
addie1412 wrote:Also, I did not mean for this to apply to OP. Just general commentary on TLS wisdom.

OP should probably retake.


Then maybe next time you should read the OP.

This OP actually has great options for regional small-to-mid-law practice. They just don't actually want to be a lawyer.


Cavalier, OP never said that he just brought up goals of his outside of the law. Having goals outside of the law does not inherently mean one does not want to be a lawyer.


*sigh*

Here are the OP's exact words:
"Overall, I'm more interested in a career in business..."
"... I'm only 21 and think I'd like to work as a lawyer for some time after graduation before eventually moving to other things..."

Wanting to be a lawyer for "some time" before moving on to other things is the definition of a bad reason to go to law school. If the OP doesn't want a career (not a short-term job, a career) in the law, they should not be pursuing professional legal training.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:49 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
addie1412 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand.


I feel like what TLS misses a lot of the time is that this exact same thing can often be said of the average humanities graduate working a vastly unfulfilling job he/she's overqualified for and looking to law school as a means of achieving something marginally more meaningful. You say "oh just work for three years" as though each day (or, more accurately, each hour ) in a menial, low-level, low-paying position doesn't creep by at a positively glacial pace. Certainly, there are opportunities worth delaying law school for. And there are opportunities worth skipping law school for entirely. The life choices of every single STEM major on this board astound me, for example. But there are people for whom the decision to delay law school would beg the question: "to do what, exactly?" Sometimes the answer to that question truly isn't worth a year of someone's life, if we're being honest. I think TLS could stand to be a little more nuanced in its advice to take time off before law school rather than painting all pre-LS jobs/opportunities with the same broad brush.

Just my $0.02 as someone whose brilliant best friend works part-time at a bookstore with a 3.8 and bachelor's in History (and who has expressed something similar to the quoted part many times).


This!!

I was your friend. And I'm now a lawyer. I'm uniquely qualified to respond. And I reject this post.

Life isn't all about jobs and I'm not sure you're really seeing the forest here.

Grass isn't always greener (or whatever other platitudes you want to insert)

Your friend needs to figure stuff out and find a way to be happy, even as a part-time cashier at a bookstore.

Delay law school to do what? Be awesome.

Whatever guys, just do go straight through. Disregard what people who have been literally you before have to say. Enjoy.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:52 pm

Also days as a lawyer never move at a glacially slow pace and I've never been told by a young partner (who was K-JD, mind you) that he daydreams about being a cashier at a gas station. Nope, those literal words were never spoken to me. Never.

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Re: Choosing Schools Advice

Postby addie1412 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 3:03 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
addie1412 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:It sucks to hear your friends say "I didn't even want to get out of bed this morning" and know that they're struggling through a job they can't stand.


I feel like what TLS misses a lot of the time is that this exact same thing can often be said of the average humanities graduate working a vastly unfulfilling job he/she's overqualified for and looking to law school as a means of achieving something marginally more meaningful. You say "oh just work for three years" as though each day (or, more accurately, each hour ) in a menial, low-level, low-paying position doesn't creep by at a positively glacial pace. Certainly, there are opportunities worth delaying law school for. And there are opportunities worth skipping law school for entirely. The life choices of every single STEM major on this board astound me, for example. But there are people for whom the decision to delay law school would beg the question: "to do what, exactly?" Sometimes the answer to that question truly isn't worth a year of someone's life, if we're being honest. I think TLS could stand to be a little more nuanced in its advice to take time off before law school rather than painting all pre-LS jobs/opportunities with the same broad brush.

Just my $0.02 as someone whose brilliant best friend works part-time at a bookstore with a 3.8 and bachelor's in History (and who has expressed something similar to the quoted part many times).


This!!


Your friend needs to figure stuff out and find a way to be happy, even as a part-time cashier at a bookstore.


replace "lawyer" with "part-time cashier at a bookstore." would you still agree?




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