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Alive97

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Postby Alive97 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:20 pm

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:28 pm

GULC part-time grad now in BigLaw here.

Biglaw outcomes from these and many other schools have been discussed and aggregated ad nauseum here and elsewhere. NALP also provides this data. Use the search function here or Google it.

Big takeaway is that the evening programs do not alter employment outcomes relative to the corresponding full time program. GULC is a little over 50% shot at Biglaw and GW is decently below that such that you should not do either unless A. You have a crazy good scholarship and B. You are comfortable with the possibility of striking out at Biglaw.

Neither program is worth sticker. No program is worth 4 years when you could do it in 3. Unless you have a very compelling reason (read: you're a parent of very young kids), then go full time with a scholarship to a better school than GULC and take some small loans if you must rather than dragging it out over 4 years for a coin flip chance at Biglaw.

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:28 pm

Tl;dr version: don't go to either school and don't do part time

Alive97

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Re: DC part time

Postby Alive97 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:01 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC part time

Postby FutureLitigator » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:31 pm

Alive97 wrote:The question re biglaw outcomes was about a calculation incorporating those outcomes, not what the outcomes are. My situation is such that I want to stay in DC and I'm comfortable with some employment outcomes other than biglaw. So I guess my other option is GULC or GW full time, but I'm not sure I would get a better scholarship to GW full time than I'm getting for part time. With either school, it is cheaper for me to go part time than to go full time.


You have to ask yourself why that is so. This is all theoretical, but add a 1 year BigLaw salary to the equation (or salary of whatever else you are "comfortable" with) and that is the price you are paying. You have to think that in 4 years you can get a JD/MBA. You're better off taking a year off then doing full time then doing part time. Like the above poster said, you should only do part time if you have a very compelling reason as to why you have to do part time. Choosing part time simply because you get more scholarship money is a horrible idea. You're only getting more scholarship money because no one wants to do part time, and still then, they're not offering enough imo. Think part time as an active cop taking night classes.

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Re: DC part time

Postby Alive97 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:47 pm

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:04 pm

I went to GULC part time because I had a low-stress decent paying job from which I could work from home, and immediate plans for a mortgage and kids. I would not have went to GULC part time under any other circumstances; I cannot express that fervently enough.

"Wanting to stay in DC continuously" is an objectively dumb reason unless you are married or have family that depend on you in the area. If you can get in to UVA, go 3 hours west of DC for 3 years and get yourself an infinitely better resume for BigLaw hiring in DC. And if you can't get a scholly at UVA, retake the damn LSAT until you get a score that'll get you there.

Actually working seriously at a job and going to law school part time is hell and it's hard to get good grades fyi which are crucial to getting Biglaw at these schools

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Re: DC part time

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:44 pm

Alive97 wrote:The question re biglaw outcomes was about a calculation incorporating those outcomes, not what the outcomes are. My situation is such that I want to stay in DC and I'm comfortable with some employment outcomes other than biglaw. So I guess my other option is GULC or GW full time, but I'm not sure I would get a better scholarship to GW full time than I'm getting for part time. With either school, it is cheaper for me to go part time than to go full time.


I think you're leaving out a few opportunity costs in that calculation.

Also, the alternatives to biglaw that you listed (in-house counsel, big 4, etc.) are not alternatives that GW offers you good chances at. In-house counsel only happens after biglaw. Big 4 is even harder to get into than a biglaw job. You need to make sure that you're considering your likely job outcomes from school, not just whether it's cheaper.

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Re: DC part time

Postby trebekismyhero » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:45 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Alive97 wrote:The question re biglaw outcomes was about a calculation incorporating those outcomes, not what the outcomes are. My situation is such that I want to stay in DC and I'm comfortable with some employment outcomes other than biglaw. So I guess my other option is GULC or GW full time, but I'm not sure I would get a better scholarship to GW full time than I'm getting for part time. With either school, it is cheaper for me to go part time than to go full time.


I think you're leaving out a few opportunity costs in that calculation.

Also, the alternatives to biglaw that you listed (in-house counsel, big 4, etc.) are not alternatives that GW offers you good chances at. In-house counsel only happens after biglaw. Big 4 is even harder to get into than a biglaw job. You need to make sure that you're considering your likely job outcomes from school, not just whether it's cheaper.


Generally I agree with you and OP shouldn't do part time unless they have a god job right now that will automatically get promoted with a JD (e.g. FedGov). But I know plenty of ppl that went straight to in-house from law school at fortune 500 companies and same with Big4. They actually are much less selective than Big law, there are just fewer of them and they pay about half of what big law pays. Just being a little nit picky.

But OP, listen to Capitol Idea

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Re: DC part time

Postby FutureLitigator » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:01 pm

I'm not sure I follow when you say I'd be better off taking a year off then doing full time instead of doing part time. I don't think that's accurate. Technically for the 1 year differential b/w PT and FT, I shouldn't just add on the full biglaw/legal job salary, I should take the difference between that salary and my current salary which I'll be making during school.

The math is something I need to look more closely at, but it could be the case that it's cheaper to go PT, even taking into account the opportunity cost of the one extra year of school.

Assuming it is cheaper to go PT at GULC or GW than it would be to go FT, any other thoughts on choosing between the two, if GW is 100k cheaper?


As I have said, that was in theory. But I was going to mention this in my post, but I figured you would reply exactly as you did and I would get a chance to direct it when I reply. When I said you're better off taking a year off then going FT opposed to going PT, I meant that if you are still into your job (which you obviously are) you should focus on that and see what it can do for you in the future. You do understand that during 1L you do not need to be focused on having a job, hell even after 1L, except for the ones correlated with LS, of course. The only reason you should go PT is if you have a job that you cannot quit, (having a family, and being the head of household, etc).

Also, what proves beneficial when one is a JD/MBA and they are doing 4 opposed to 3 years is that their first year they'll be introduced to their incoming class. Then their second year they will be introduced to their incoming business class. The third year they will get to see both of those classes graduate, and you can access their resources to further your interests. In addition, you can collect information on both classes and see how they have placed into their respective jobs. Now, for your fourth year, you will have your own class to graduate with. So you have double the networking opportunities, and double the time to find a job by OCI/summers/etc, and all correlated into how your peers placed, etc. In addition, you will have more time for extracurricular activity. When you PT, it is the exact opposite, you don't get neither classes, you are just PT and are only doing it part time because you have no other choice or are not interested in another choice (You're relatively young, so you should definitely be interested in other choices). When you PT and remain in your job, it is typically that you have already established a pathway for you after you receive your JD. If you don't want to leave your job for law school, it must not only be an important job, but be somewhat correlated into why you are going to law school, or why you cannot go FT to law school. So the main question is, what do you really want?

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Re: DC part time

Postby Alive97 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:53 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:02 pm

(blatantly stealing this from another poster) Guys I just want a straight answer: is it better to eat cat shit or dog shit

I don't want any advice not to eat shit because my palate situation is unique such that shit really is the best option for me.

Lol you do you, bro

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:06 pm

If you really need an answer then dog shit is better. But I went for 4 years of big ole spoonfuls of said dogshit and for all its interesting textures I really can't recommend it.

Alive97

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Re: DC part time

Postby Alive97 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:25 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:30 pm

I started substantively responding but nah. I sincerely want you to do one of these options now OP. Have fun!

FutureLitigator

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Re: DC part time

Postby FutureLitigator » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:04 am

Capitol_Idea wrote:(blatantly stealing this from another poster) Guys I just want a straight answer: is it better to eat cat shit or dog shit

I don't want any advice not to eat shit because my palate situation is unique such that shit really is the best option for me.

Lol you do you, bro


OP, To understand the reason why no one is comfortable answering such a question, you have to think if you were to ask "Should I shoot myself with a S&W Glock 27 .40 Cal or a Springfield .40 Cal?" If they answer you, they will still be giving you an answer that contributes to you shooting yourself.

Alive97

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Re: DC part time

Postby Alive97 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:18 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC part time

Postby lymenheimer » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:37 pm

Capitol_Idea wrote:If you really need an answer then dog shit is better. But I went for 4 years of big ole spoonfuls of said dogshit and for all its interesting textures I really can't recommend it.

What if cat shit is 100k cheaper (I don't think OP understood your point here).

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nealric

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Re: DC part time

Postby nealric » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:45 pm

cavalier1138 wrote: Big 4 is even harder to get into than a biglaw job.


Quite the opposite.

In any event, I don't think these options are quite so terrible as others are making them out to be. However, I think the PT option really is best for those with good careers that can accommodate (and pay enough to significantly limit the debt), or those with family commitments that demand they stay in DC and provide financial support. If that doesn't describe you, and you can get into a FT T14 program, that may be the better way to go. Also, it's worth noting that when I attended, GULC PT and FT transfer was just a matter of filling out a form. However, my understanding is that the ability to transfer to FT has been restricted since then, so it may be difficult to change your mind if you find the work/school balance too much of a grind.

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:32 pm

Yeah starting in my year GULC only lets you transfer to FT for a family medical situation or something at that level of seriousness

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Glasseyes

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Re: DC part time

Postby Glasseyes » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:40 pm

I'm finishing up GULC FT now, can't speak to PT specifically, heading to DC biglaw next fall. Neither of your options sound great at the scholarship levels you describe. GULC at sticker is a terrible, terrible idea, and GW at anything less than free is probably a terrible idea.

Having survived EIW at GULC, which is pants-shittingly scary because of the very real chance of striking out and being destitute forever with nondischargeable debt out the ass,there's no way I'd want to go through it at GW where the odds of success are significantly lower. I know a few folks from GW who landed biglaw and plenty more who didn't; unless it's really cheap or you're gung-ho for IP (with background to match), I personally wouldn't go there.

Alive97

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Re: DC part time

Postby Alive97 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:19 pm

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Last edited by Alive97 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC part time

Postby TLSModBot » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:33 pm

Why does your current salary factor in to repayability? The question is are you seriously looking at a job that requires a JD, and if so, will THAT salary let you pay back your debt? If you're at all comfortable staying at your current job then don't go to law school.

It's a gamble. Working and doing law school, even part time, sucks. I did it and it blew. Couple that with coin flip chance of landing a job that will actually let you pay off the debt in a reasonably quick time, and I'd vote no. But ultimately the degree of risk to which you feel comfortable is a call for you.

Regarding specific schools from the below: GULC if you want Biglaw and are comfortable with the risk above, American if you just want a JD and don't mind not having a serious crack at the higher paying law jobs, probably ever, and never GW at those figures.

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Re: DC part time

Postby ookoshi » Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:42 pm

Alive97 wrote:So my expected debt at GULC is 130k, GW is 60k, and American is 2k (all part time). This is with a 10k scholarship for GULC. I think that comes out to a 1700 monthly payment (for GULC) on a 10 year loan, and 1050 on a 25 year loan (do people usually do 10 year or 25 year? 25 year sounds like a terrible idea). I can afford the 25 year monthly payment on my current salary, so that is my worst case scenario. What do y'all think?


Since you have $1050 above and beyond your cost of living each month, let me ask you, are these numbers assuming you are putting $1050 a month toward your tuition while you're in law school? If not, then you should redo your numbers with the assumption that you can take out less in loans by paying part of your cost of attendance as you go, which would mean ~$34k less in debt.

In either case, I'm going to disagree with some of the other opinions on this thread. According to LST, Georgetown has a Biglaw+Clerkship placement rate of 45%, while GW is at 35%. While 10% is not insignificant, I don't think the disparity is as big as "GW has to be free, but GULC doesn't."

Additionally, LST's numbers do not separate out full-time vs part-time outcomes. As I understand it, GULC has a dedicated part-time faculty, while GW rotates their full-time faculty through the part-time program. As a result, my understanding is that part-time GULC students do not place as well as their full-time GULC peers to a greater degree than schools where the part-time program is more integrated with the full-time program. As a result, I don't think your employment prospects are that different between GW part-time and GULC's part-time program.

I'm a part-time student. I was accepted @ GW, although they didn't take me off the wait list until August, so I had already committed elsewhere by then. I would've gone to GW if I didn't already buy a house near where I ended up going to school (which was a T2 school with a part-time program and I ended up in biglaw, but I'm patent bar eligible, so my math is different).

Between your options I'd go to GW, but that's just me.

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T14_Scholly

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Re: DC part time

Postby T14_Scholly » Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:31 pm

You should forfeit your scholarship at American and go there at sticker.



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