3T or shoot for 2T? URM and strong softs, low GPA Forum

[gbullock19]

I love reading this blog. So I was wondering what your take on my situation is. I have a disability and was granted LSAT accomodations. I’m also URM & non-traditional student. I was PTing average 158-159 but scored 154 which I wasn’t happy about. After 2 more months of study, I printed the test of LSAC website and scored 161! My GPA was 3.04 mostly due to complications with my disability.

Disappointed and hopeful, I’ve rescheduled test for February 2017 but have already been awarded $30k/year from Stetson which is about 73% of tuituion. Room & board is also super cheap there at $489/mo. I also love the beach and that I can live on campus which is rare for a 3T law school.

My dream school though is Georgia State, a 2T, where I went for undergrad in my city of Atlanta, but also because they are #3 in Health Law, which I want to practice. GSU encouraged me not to apply until March when Feb scores come out. Even with a 160 scholarship at most will be $5k a year due to my low GPA and the fact that they are super selective because of low tuition and it's a public school (tuition there is $17k/yr). Caveat, though, is I may be distracted my friends and boyfriend here and it’s in the middle of downtown traffic which is expensive and horrid.

WWYD?

[lymenheimer]

What do you want to do with a law degree?

[gbullock19]

What do you want to do with a law degree?

I would like to work in a small firm doing either disability law or combination of employment/disability. However, I'm also interested in medical malpractice. All small firms to low-midsize though.

[curry1]

I love reading this blog. So I was wondering what your take on my situation is. I have a disability and was granted LSAT accomodations. I’m also URM & non-traditional student. I was PTing average 158-159 but scored 154 which I wasn’t happy about. After 2 more months of study, I printed the test of LSAC website and scored 161! My GPA was 3.04 mostly due to complications with my disability.

Disappointed and hopeful, I’ve rescheduled test for February 2017 but have already been awarded $30k/year from Stetson which is about 73% of tuituion. Room & board is also super cheap there at $489/mo. I also love the beach and that I can live on campus which is rare for a 3T law school.

My dream school though is Georgia State, a 2T, where I went for undergrad in my city of Atlanta, but also because they are #3 in Health Law, which I want to practice. GSU encouraged me not to apply until March when Feb scores come out. Even with a 160 scholarship at most will be $5k a year due to my low GPA (tuition there is $17k a month). Caveat, though, is I may be distracted my friends and boyfriend here and it’s in the middle of downtown traffic which is expensive and horrid.

WWYD?

Specialty rankings are not real nor should they be relevant to your decision, retake to get to a point where you can attend a regional school at a reasonable cost for the relatively poor/variable outcomes they provide.

[gbullock19]

I love reading this blog. So I was wondering what your take on my situation is. I have a disability and was granted LSAT accomodations. I’m also URM & non-traditional student. I was PTing average 158-159 but scored 154 which I wasn’t happy about. After 2 more months of study, I printed the test of LSAC website and scored 161! My GPA was 3.04 mostly due to complications with my disability.

Disappointed and hopeful, I’ve rescheduled test for February 2017 but have already been awarded $30k/year from Stetson which is about 73% of tuituion. Room & board is also super cheap there at $489/mo. I also love the beach and that I can live on campus which is rare for a 3T law school.

My dream school though is Georgia State, a 2T, where I went for undergrad in my city of Atlanta, but also because they are #3 in Health Law, which I want to practice. GSU encouraged me not to apply until March when Feb scores come out. Even with a 160 scholarship at most will be $5k a year due to my low GPA (tuition there is $17k a month). Caveat, though, is I may be distracted my friends and boyfriend here and it’s in the middle of downtown traffic which is expensive and horrid.

WWYD?

Specialty rankings are not real nor should they be relevant to your decision, retake to get to a point where you can attend a regional school at a reasonable cost for the relatively poor/variable outcomes they provide.

Do you think outcomes will be poor if I'm in top 10% or make law review? After all, I'm not trying to go Biglaw

[lawlorbust]

Why do you think that you'll be in top 10% or make law review?

[curry1]

Why do you think that you'll be in top 10% or make law review?

*is incredibly below the LSAT/GPA medians for a TTT
*making decision to attend said TTT based on outcomes for top 10%/law reviewers (which aren't even generally very good)
0l special snowflake syndrome is too real

[Bebop]

Did you apply to University of Georgia? I don't know the actual numbers, but I would assume a URM with a 161 LSAT and a somewhat low gpa (and honestly >3.0 isn't terrible) would have at least a decent shot at getting accepted. I would say for that price you should be going to University of Georgia if you want to work in Georgia, or at the very least use the UGA acceptance to try to get more money from Georgia State. The only reason I would see for going to Georgia State over Georgia would be if it was significantly cheaper.

Or if you have the time, study a bit more and try to raise that LSAT, even two points would put you over the median and near or at the 75th for UGA I believe.

EDIT: oh i see, you got a 161 on a practice test? Then definitely try to study more and get a score around there on the actual test I would say.

[gbullock19]

Why do you think that you'll be in top 10% or make law review?

*is incredibly below the LSAT/GPA medians for a TTT
*making decision to attend said TTT based on outcomes for top 10%/law reviewers (which aren't even generally very good)
0l special snowflake syndrome is too real

I worked as a claims adjuster for 4 years and know a lot about the law, torts, different types of negligence, liability, etc. already. Negotiated with attorney's on a daily basis including responding and reading 900 page time limit demands. Studying and preparing for discovery.

I'm studying and reading cases, learning to write briefs and respond to hypos now. My cousin who went to USC is coaching me. Has sent me over 1000 pages of hornbooks in every area of 1st year courses. Also taking BARBI week prep before law school. So yeah that's why ....I feel like on this site you guys get caught up in the numbers ...so I'm giving you more background.

[gbullock19]

Did you apply to University of Georgia? I don't know the actual numbers, but I would assume a URM with a 161 LSAT and a somewhat low gpa (and honestly >3.0 isn't terrible) would have at least a decent shot at getting accepted. I would say for that price you should be going to University of Georgia if you want to work in Georgia, or at the very least use the UGA acceptance to try to get more money from Georgia State. The only reason I would see for going to Georgia State over Georgia would be if it was significantly cheaper.

Or if you have the time, study a bit more and try to raise that LSAT, even two points would put you over the median and near or at the 75th for UGA I believe.

EDIT: oh i see, you got a 161 on a practice test? Then definitely try to study more and get a score around there on the actual test I would say.

Yes! I applied to their early decision program and they encouraged me and said I had a chance (not like GSU which isn't nearly as high in ranking).

[pancakes3]

why don't you spend less time studying law and more time studying the LSAT?

[barkschool]

I'm sure if you get a 165, you could go to GSU or U of G for free. With your goals that might make sense.

Stop those "pre-law school" study programs, or studying. JFC

[Johann]

based on your work experience and if you dont shit the bed in law school, youll probably get at least an average outcome from the schools. just make sure you check the lst score reports for job/salary data to make sure youre aware of the possible outcomes.

as someone that went to a TTT school, the outcomes range the entire spectrum from biglaw to successful solos to unsuccessful solos to government attorneys to midlaw/boutique firms to small firms that pay $30k entry level to doc review.

[curry1]

based on your work experience and if you dont shit the bed in law school, youll probably get at least an average outcome from the schools. just make sure you check the lst score reports for job/salary data to make sure youre aware of the possible outcomes.

as someone that went to a TTT school, the outcomes range the entire spectrum from biglaw to successful solos to unsuccessful solos to government attorneys to midlaw/boutique firms to small firms that pay $30k entry level to doc review.

you forgot unemployment

[Johann]

based on your work experience and if you dont shit the bed in law school, youll probably get at least an average outcome from the schools. just make sure you check the lst score reports for job/salary data to make sure youre aware of the possible outcomes.

as someone that went to a TTT school, the outcomes range the entire spectrum from biglaw to successful solos to unsuccessful solos to government attorneys to midlaw/boutique firms to small firms that pay $30k entry level to doc review.

you forgot unemployment

dont now and didnt know then anyone unemployed. always doc review jobs available worst case scenario.

[Johann]

underemployed sure. unemployed not by choice, nah

[curry1]

underemployed sure. unemployed not by choice, nah

Hmm, so perhaps low-prestige workplaces are less skeptical of TTT graduates because they know they likely have no better options and are happy to have the jobs? Because my impression has been that a good number of T14 graduates are legitimately unemployed after graduation and can't get any work at all because their degree is too fancy. Or are these T14 grads just lazy/picky and don't want the stain of doc review or menial work on their résumé/think unemployment is preferable?

[gbullock19]

based on your work experience and if you dont shit the bed in law school, youll probably get at least an average outcome from the schools. just make sure you check the lst score reports for job/salary data to make sure youre aware of the possible outcomes.

as someone that went to a TTT school, the outcomes range the entire spectrum from biglaw to successful solos to unsuccessful solos to government attorneys to midlaw/boutique firms to small firms that pay $30k entry level to doc review.

you forgot unemployment

dont now and didnt know then anyone unemployed. always doc review jobs available worst case scenario.

I can make 90k to 120k doing what I was doing as an independent claims adjuster if it were really about the money. I just don't like being stuck in random cities isolated from my family. I'd go back to that before doing doc review. I want to practice law but I'm not above returning to my current career if it comes down to it. Also, since I worked at the #1 insurance company in the country, I could probably easily get into insurance defense, but I'd prefer not to.

[Johann]

oh jesus christ 90-120k. no dont do this. youre gonna take a massive paycut to start and probably be about 5-10 years until you are at 100k assuming you stay in law, which most dont cause law sucks.

[cavalier1138]

Why do you think that you'll be in top 10% or make law review?

*is incredibly below the LSAT/GPA medians for a TTT
*making decision to attend said TTT based on outcomes for top 10%/law reviewers (which aren't even generally very good)
0l special snowflake syndrome is too real

I worked as a claims adjuster for 4 years and know a lot about the law, torts, different types of negligence, liability, etc. already. Negotiated with attorney's on a daily basis including responding and reading 900 page time limit demands. Studying and preparing for discovery.

I'm studying and reading cases, learning to write briefs and respond to hypos now. My cousin who went to USC is coaching me. Has sent me over 1000 pages of hornbooks in every area of 1st year courses. Also taking BARBI week prep before law school. So yeah that's why ....I feel like on this site you guys get caught up in the numbers ...so I'm giving you more background.

Just FYI, that sort of studying will guarantee that you don't break the median at whatever school you go to. Memorizing the law as a set of rote facts is useless, and memorizing generic information is even more useless. Law school professors teach the law in their own way, and they will want to see certain topics addressed with a certain style. Going into law school thinking that you already understand the law is one of the only surefire ways to make sure you absolutely aren't in the top half of your class.

But even without all that, it is monumentally stupid to plan on being in the top 10% of your class.

[gbullock19]

oh jesus christ 90-120k. no dont do this. youre gonna take a massive paycut to start and probably be about 5-10 years until you are at 100k assuming you stay in law, which most dont cause law sucks.

It's not about the money for me though. I was miserable doing what I was doing before. I honestly am ok with working my way to 100k b/c though I could make the 90-120k it was sparse with no benefits/vacation also in places I didn't want to live. Same staff jobs doing same job not contracting are about 57k maxing at about 68k.

Did you go to law school to be a top earner? Is that why you say it sucks....I need more of your perspective to evaluate that statement.

If I'm honest that's not my top priority though I don't want to make lower than 65k.

[gbullock19]

Why do you think that you'll be in top 10% or make law review?

Just FYI, that sort of studying will guarantee that you don't break the median at whatever school you go to. Memorizing the law as a set of rote facts is useless, and memorizing generic information is even more useless. Law school professors teach the law in their own way, and they will want to see certain topics addressed with a certain style. Going into law school thinking that you already understand the law is one of the only surefire ways to make sure you absolutely aren't in the top half of your class.

But even without all that, it is monumentally stupid to plan on being in the top 10% of your class.

It's not a "plan" it's a goal, if I end up in top 25% I'll be happy. If you go back to my original statement, I posed a hypothetical question. I never said I understood the law, I listed my experience. I'm not memorizing, I'm reading to understand conceptual principles of the law & get used to the style. I know A LOT of lawyers and I'm not going into this eyes wide shut. The bitterness is this post is so blatant that it's shocking lol

[pancakes3]

why don't you spend less time studying law and more time studying the LSAT?

[gbullock19]

why don't you spend less time studying law and more time studying the LSAT?

I don't think one cancels out the other. Most of this is not concurrent. I can't study for LSAT more than 5 hours a day. Other reading I'm doing now is minimal until prep class starts on 12/31 & in-between self-study, most of the in-depth will be post-LSAT in feb, but I am browsing and gathering materials now.

[A. Nony Mouse]

The problem with believing you're going to be whatever-percent is that you're graded on a curve with people who tend to cluster in a very narrow band of GPA/LSAT, and while GPA/LSAT aren't perfect predictors of law school success, they're the best ones we have, so it's very difficult to predict the grades you'll get. Also keep in mind that success at law school exams doesn't say much about ability to be a lawyer (and vice versa).

The other thing is that if there were some way to prep that would guarantee top grades, someone would have invented it/patented it/made a lot of money off it by now, and they haven't. (Also if everyone availed themselves of it, because grades are on a curve, everyone's prep would cancel each other's out, and you'd be back where you started.) You're not unique in prepping ahead of time.

That's not to say that no one should ever go to a school outside the T14 or anything - regional schools can be fine, especially if cheap. But if you want to work in Atlanta there's no good reason to go to Stetson, which I think tends to perform a little better job-wise than its ranking would suggest, but is a regional school that's going to help you get a job in Florida, not Atlanta. (Take a look at school reports on lawschooltransparency.com to see what the employment numbers are and what kinds of jobs people are getting.)