Best T14 for south?

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lavarman84

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lavarman84 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:51 am

These are just my personal thought. I'm sure people will disagree, but that's life. I am definitely generalized, but that's what I was asked to do. If I were to rank them, I'd say:
Top Tier
Harvard - Everybody recognizes the Harvard name and brand.

Second Tier
Yale - Yale is an incredible school with a respected brand. But I think when you're dealing with Southerners who don't pay much attention to the rankings, they'll assume Harvard is better because of its name.
Duke - Duke is basically considered the Harvard of the South. It's a very highly respected school down here.
Stanford - Similar to Yale but probably a little less respected because it's not Ivy League.

Third Tier
Vanderbilt - Like Duke, it's a highly respected Southern institution.
UVA - See Vanderbilt.

Fourth Tier
Columbia
NYU
UChicago
Cal-Berkeley
Michigan
Texas
Emory
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Penn
Cornell
Georgetown


Fifth Tier
The Flagship Southern State Schools

My perception of it all is that schools like Michigan, Cal, Northwestern, UChicgo, NYU, etc. just aren't that well-known down here. There's certainly an argument for NYU and UChicago being in the Third Tier.

I also need to say that these tiers don't really matter that much with big national firms and bigger markets. For example, a national firm in Miami is going to know the top law schools. Same with a national firm in Atlanta.

But when you get to mid-law and even some regional firms, I think the tiers matter more. As do ties. Same thing with smaller markets. A market like Tampa or Birmingham is a lot more insular than a market like Miami or Atlanta imo.

Ties do matter for the bigger markets. But that's more because they tend to be highly desirable. Thus, you're competing against people from t14s with ties and the top students from the state flagships. Ties aren't absolutely necessary, but it will give you an edge. Plus, it makes it easier to answer the "Why (this city)?" question.

With mid-law, regional firms, and small firms, I think you're more likely to see them not as familiar with the t14 schools that don't have a big brand. I could even see the flagship Southern state school being favored over many of the schools in the Fourth Tier. This is especially true if the lawyers in the firm all went to schools in that state or Southern regional schools.

Now, the one thing that I want to make clear is that I'm not saying you should turn down NYU for Vandy if you want to work in the South. Vandy doesn't guarantee you anything. Truth is that it's a lot easier to lateral to the South after working in New York for a time than it is to get a market-paying SA and biglaw job here straight out of school. At least, that's my perception.

However, if you're aiming for small firms or government work, I'd strongly consider schools in the South for that. That's when schools like Duke, UVA, Vandy, etc. become strong options.

I also want to say that I agree with the poster who said that Texas is seen as the greatest in Texas but not really favored in other Southern states. That's my perception as well. Texans love Texas. People in other states think of it as just another state institution like UF or UGA or Alabama. Again, I'm generalizing, though.
Last edited by lavarman84 on Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

joeytribbiani

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby joeytribbiani » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:19 am

lawman84 wrote:These are just my personal thought. I'm sure people will disagree, but that's life. I am definitely generalized, but that's what I was asked to do. If I were to rank them, I'd say:
Top Tier
Harvard - Everybody recognizes the Harvard name and brand.

Second Tier
Yale - Yale is an incredible school with a respected brand. But I think when you're dealing with Southerners who don't pay much attention to the rankings, they'll assume Harvard is better because of its name.
Duke - Duke is basically considered the Harvard of the South. It's a very highly respected school down here.
Stanford - Similar to Yale but probably a little less respected because it's not Ivy League.
Columbia - Like Harvard and Yale, the brand and name mean a lot (Ivy League especially).

Third Tier
Vanderbilt - Like Duke, it's a highly respected Southern institution.
UVA - See Vanderbilt.
Penn - See Columbia.
Cornell - See Columbia
Georgetown - I feel like Georgetown is really respected down here.

Fourth Tier
NYU
UChicago
Cal-Berkeley
Michigan
Texas
Emory
Northwestern
Notre Dame

Fifth Tier
The Flagship Southern State Schools

My perception of it all is that schools like Michigan, Cal, Northwestern, UChicgo, NYU, etc. just aren't that well-known down here. There's certainly an argument for NYU and UChicago being in the Third Tier.

I also need to say that these tiers don't really matter that much with big national firms and bigger markets. For example, a national firm in Miami is going to know the top law schools. Same with a national firm in Atlanta.

But when you get to mid-law and even some regional firms, I think the tiers matter more. As do ties. Same thing with smaller markets. A market like Tampa or Birmingham is a lot more insular than a market like Miami or Atlanta imo.

Ties do matter for the bigger markets. But that's more because they tend to be highly desirable. Thus, you're competing against people from t14s with ties and the top students from the state flagships. Ties aren't absolutely necessary, but it will give you an edge. Plus, it makes it easier to answer the "Why (this city)?" question.

With mid-law, regional firms, and small firms, I think you're more likely to see them not as familiar with the t14 schools that don't have a big brand. I could even see the flagship Southern state school being favored over many of the schools in the Fourth Tier. This is especially true if the lawyers in the firm all went to schools in that state or Southern regional schools.

Now, the one thing that I want to make clear is that I'm not saying you should turn down NYU for Vandy if you want to work in the South. Vandy doesn't guarantee you anything. Truth is that it's a lot easier to lateral to the South after working in New York for a time than it is to get a market-paying SA and biglaw job here straight out of school. At least, that's my perception.

However, if you're aiming for small firms or government work, I'd strongly consider schools in the South for that. That's when schools like Duke, UVA, Vandy, etc. become strong options.

I also want to say that I agree with the poster who said that Texas is seen as the greatest in Texas but not really favored in other Southern states. That's my perception as well. Texans love Texas. People in other states think of it as just another state institution like UF or UGA or Alabama. Again, I'm generalizing, though.


This is everything I needed to hear, you win. Thank you!

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby First Offense » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:10 pm

joeytribbiani wrote:
lawman84 wrote:These are just my personal thought. I'm sure people will disagree, but that's life. I am definitely generalized, but that's what I was asked to do. If I were to rank them, I'd say:
Top Tier
Harvard - Everybody recognizes the Harvard name and brand.

Second Tier
Yale - Yale is an incredible school with a respected brand. But I think when you're dealing with Southerners who don't pay much attention to the rankings, they'll assume Harvard is better because of its name.
Duke - Duke is basically considered the Harvard of the South. It's a very highly respected school down here.
Stanford - Similar to Yale but probably a little less respected because it's not Ivy League.
Columbia - Like Harvard and Yale, the brand and name mean a lot (Ivy League especially).

Third Tier
Vanderbilt - Like Duke, it's a highly respected Southern institution.
UVA - See Vanderbilt.
Penn - See Columbia.
Cornell - See Columbia
Georgetown - I feel like Georgetown is really respected down here.

Fourth Tier
NYU
UChicago
Cal-Berkeley
Michigan
Texas
Emory
Northwestern
Notre Dame

Fifth Tier
The Flagship Southern State Schools

My perception of it all is that schools like Michigan, Cal, Northwestern, UChicgo, NYU, etc. just aren't that well-known down here. There's certainly an argument for NYU and UChicago being in the Third Tier.

I also need to say that these tiers don't really matter that much with big national firms and bigger markets. For example, a national firm in Miami is going to know the top law schools. Same with a national firm in Atlanta.

But when you get to mid-law and even some regional firms, I think the tiers matter more. As do ties. Same thing with smaller markets. A market like Tampa or Birmingham is a lot more insular than a market like Miami or Atlanta imo.

Ties do matter for the bigger markets. But that's more because they tend to be highly desirable. Thus, you're competing against people from t14s with ties and the top students from the state flagships. Ties aren't absolutely necessary, but it will give you an edge. Plus, it makes it easier to answer the "Why (this city)?" question.

With mid-law, regional firms, and small firms, I think you're more likely to see them not as familiar with the t14 schools that don't have a big brand. I could even see the flagship Southern state school being favored over many of the schools in the Fourth Tier. This is especially true if the lawyers in the firm all went to schools in that state or Southern regional schools.

Now, the one thing that I want to make clear is that I'm not saying you should turn down NYU for Vandy if you want to work in the South. Vandy doesn't guarantee you anything. Truth is that it's a lot easier to lateral to the South after working in New York for a time than it is to get a market-paying SA and biglaw job here straight out of school. At least, that's my perception.

However, if you're aiming for small firms or government work, I'd strongly consider schools in the South for that. That's when schools like Duke, UVA, Vandy, etc. become strong options.

I also want to say that I agree with the poster who said that Texas is seen as the greatest in Texas but not really favored in other Southern states. That's my perception as well. Texans love Texas. People in other states think of it as just another state institution like UF or UGA or Alabama. Again, I'm generalizing, though.


This is everything I needed to hear, you win. Thank you!

It's also at least 50% wrong. No one would give a shit about Columbia over UVA or Vandy down there. And they would have significantly more pull than schools like Cornell or Penn.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby joeytribbiani » Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:23 pm

First Offense wrote:
joeytribbiani wrote:
lawman84 wrote:These are just my personal thought. I'm sure people will disagree, but that's life. I am definitely generalized, but that's what I was asked to do. If I were to rank them, I'd say:
Top Tier
Harvard - Everybody recognizes the Harvard name and brand.

Second Tier
Yale - Yale is an incredible school with a respected brand. But I think when you're dealing with Southerners who don't pay much attention to the rankings, they'll assume Harvard is better because of its name.
Duke - Duke is basically considered the Harvard of the South. It's a very highly respected school down here.
Stanford - Similar to Yale but probably a little less respected because it's not Ivy League.
Columbia - Like Harvard and Yale, the brand and name mean a lot (Ivy League especially).

Third Tier
Vanderbilt - Like Duke, it's a highly respected Southern institution.
UVA - See Vanderbilt.
Penn - See Columbia.
Cornell - See Columbia
Georgetown - I feel like Georgetown is really respected down here.

Fourth Tier
NYU
UChicago
Cal-Berkeley
Michigan
Texas
Emory
Northwestern
Notre Dame

Fifth Tier
The Flagship Southern State Schools

My perception of it all is that schools like Michigan, Cal, Northwestern, UChicgo, NYU, etc. just aren't that well-known down here. There's certainly an argument for NYU and UChicago being in the Third Tier.

I also need to say that these tiers don't really matter that much with big national firms and bigger markets. For example, a national firm in Miami is going to know the top law schools. Same with a national firm in Atlanta.

But when you get to mid-law and even some regional firms, I think the tiers matter more. As do ties. Same thing with smaller markets. A market like Tampa or Birmingham is a lot more insular than a market like Miami or Atlanta imo.

Ties do matter for the bigger markets. But that's more because they tend to be highly desirable. Thus, you're competing against people from t14s with ties and the top students from the state flagships. Ties aren't absolutely necessary, but it will give you an edge. Plus, it makes it easier to answer the "Why (this city)?" question.

With mid-law, regional firms, and small firms, I think you're more likely to see them not as familiar with the t14 schools that don't have a big brand. I could even see the flagship Southern state school being favored over many of the schools in the Fourth Tier. This is especially true if the lawyers in the firm all went to schools in that state or Southern regional schools.

Now, the one thing that I want to make clear is that I'm not saying you should turn down NYU for Vandy if you want to work in the South. Vandy doesn't guarantee you anything. Truth is that it's a lot easier to lateral to the South after working in New York for a time than it is to get a market-paying SA and biglaw job here straight out of school. At least, that's my perception.

However, if you're aiming for small firms or government work, I'd strongly consider schools in the South for that. That's when schools like Duke, UVA, Vandy, etc. become strong options.

I also want to say that I agree with the poster who said that Texas is seen as the greatest in Texas but not really favored in other Southern states. That's my perception as well. Texans love Texas. People in other states think of it as just another state institution like UF or UGA or Alabama. Again, I'm generalizing, though.


This is everything I needed to hear, you win. Thank you!

It's also at least 50% wrong. No one would give a shit about Columbia over UVA or Vandy down there. And they would have significantly more pull than schools like Cornell or Penn.


I was referring more to the commentary than the rankings. Any attempt to rank is always going to be wrong so some degree, too many variables.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:09 pm

I've been on this site for like 5 years and I barely have a handle on what Penn actually is. There's no way anyone cares about it in south.

And Cornell? LOL

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proteinshake

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby proteinshake » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:34 am

I don't think anyone outside of people who have looked at school rankings and reputations know anything about Penn

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby curry1 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:49 am

BigZuck wrote:I've been on this site for like 5 years and I barely have a handle on what Penn actually is. There's no way anyone cares about it in south.

And Cornell? LOL


penn is a commuter school that sells seats to trumps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEGy_asxL2U#t=30s says everything that needs to be said about cornell.

lavarman84

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:03 am

BigZuck wrote:I've been on this site for like 5 years and I barely have a handle on what Penn actually is. There's no way anyone cares about it in south.

And Cornell? LOL


Heh. I was thinking the whole Ivy League prestige might factor in. But you make a good point. Penn and Cornell don't really pop into your head when you think about it.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby First Offense » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:49 am

lawman84 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I've been on this site for like 5 years and I barely have a handle on what Penn actually is. There's no way anyone cares about it in south.

And Cornell? LOL


Heh. I was thinking the whole Ivy League prestige might factor in. But you make a good point. Penn and Cornell don't really pop into your head when you think about it.

No one knows shit about the Ivy League outside of Princeton, Harvard, and Yale.

lavarman84

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:26 pm

First Offense wrote:
lawman84 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I've been on this site for like 5 years and I barely have a handle on what Penn actually is. There's no way anyone cares about it in south.

And Cornell? LOL


Heh. I was thinking the whole Ivy League prestige might factor in. But you make a good point. Penn and Cornell don't really pop into your head when you think about it.

No one knows shit about the Ivy League outside of Princeton, Harvard, and Yale.


Yea. That's what I thought about when I was writing the post you quoted. Those were the three schools that would come to mind. Edited my post to reflect that.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby PrezRand » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:08 pm

lawman84 wrote:These are just my personal thought. I'm sure people will disagree, but that's life. I am definitely generalized, but that's what I was asked to do. If I were to rank them, I'd say:
Top Tier
Harvard - Everybody recognizes the Harvard name and brand.

Second Tier
Yale - Yale is an incredible school with a respected brand. But I think when you're dealing with Southerners who don't pay much attention to the rankings, they'll assume Harvard is better because of its name.
Duke - Duke is basically considered the Harvard of the South. It's a very highly respected school down here.
Stanford - Similar to Yale but probably a little less respected because it's not Ivy League.

Third Tier
Vanderbilt - Like Duke, it's a highly respected Southern institution.
UVA - See Vanderbilt.

Fourth Tier
Columbia
NYU
UChicago
Cal-Berkeley
Michigan
Texas
Emory
Northwestern
Notre Dame
Penn
Cornell
Georgetown


Fifth Tier
The Flagship Southern State Schools

My perception of it all is that schools like Michigan, Cal, Northwestern, UChicgo, NYU, etc. just aren't that well-known down here. There's certainly an argument for NYU and UChicago being in the Third Tier.

I also need to say that these tiers don't really matter that much with big national firms and bigger markets. For example, a national firm in Miami is going to know the top law schools. Same with a national firm in Atlanta.

But when you get to mid-law and even some regional firms, I think the tiers matter more. As do ties. Same thing with smaller markets. A market like Tampa or Birmingham is a lot more insular than a market like Miami or Atlanta imo.

Ties do matter for the bigger markets. But that's more because they tend to be highly desirable. Thus, you're competing against people from t14s with ties and the top students from the state flagships. Ties aren't absolutely necessary, but it will give you an edge. Plus, it makes it easier to answer the "Why (this city)?" question.

With mid-law, regional firms, and small firms, I think you're more likely to see them not as familiar with the t14 schools that don't have a big brand. I could even see the flagship Southern state school being favored over many of the schools in the Fourth Tier. This is especially true if the lawyers in the firm all went to schools in that state or Southern regional schools.

Now, the one thing that I want to make clear is that I'm not saying you should turn down NYU for Vandy if you want to work in the South. Vandy doesn't guarantee you anything. Truth is that it's a lot easier to lateral to the South after working in New York for a time than it is to get a market-paying SA and biglaw job here straight out of school. At least, that's my perception.

However, if you're aiming for small firms or government work, I'd strongly consider schools in the South for that. That's when schools like Duke, UVA, Vandy, etc. become strong options.

I also want to say that I agree with the poster who said that Texas is seen as the greatest in Texas but not really favored in other Southern states. That's my perception as well. Texans love Texas. People in other states think of it as just another state institution like UF or UGA or Alabama. Again, I'm generalizing, though.

Yeah, this is totally inaccurate for both undergrad and law school lol.

lavarman84

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lavarman84 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:34 pm

PrezRand wrote:Yeah, this is totally inaccurate for both undergrad and law school lol.


I can only tell you what the perceptions are where I am (Florida).(at least what I've observed) It seems to me that people perceive Duke as above UVA and Vandy. And Texas isn't seen as anything special here.

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Toni V

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Toni V » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:27 pm

(Data from ATL)

Kentucky #2! Have to assume that Kentucky places very well in the south. The rest of the rankings look right...Penn #1 is no surprise. ditto the others.

Image

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lymenheimer » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:30 pm

Toni V wrote:(Data from ATL)

Kentucky #2! Have to assume that Kentucky places very well in the south. The rest of the rankings look right...Penn #1 is no surprise. ditto the others.



Can you link to the info/data on ATL?

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Toni V

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Toni V » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:32 pm

lymenheimer wrote:
Toni V wrote:(Data from ATL)

Kentucky #2! Have to assume that Kentucky places very well in the south. The rest of the rankings look right...Penn #1 is no surprise. ditto the others.



Can you link to the info/data on ATL?


http://abovethelaw.com/2016/12/which-la ... ob/2/?rf=1

(Note: Duke #2, along with Kentucky, and UVA doesn't place)

lavarman84

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lavarman84 » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:24 am

Toni V wrote:(Data from ATL)

Kentucky #2! Have to assume that Kentucky places very well in the south. The rest of the rankings look right...Penn #1 is no surprise. ditto the others.

Image


Well, Kentucky places well in Kentucky.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Deputy Downer » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:53 pm

There's quite a lot of stuff in here that I'd suggest ignoring, but I would like to say that, rather than giving you some arbitrary rankings, it depends on what you consider to be the South and where in the South you want to live and work - and whether or not you have any connections to where you want to be.

So, first, what do you mean by the South? If you just mean states that seceded, there's still a lot of difference between working in Birmingham or New Orleans and Miami or Atlanta for example - they're very different places that draw from very different schools. If you want to work anywhere in Alabama, your best bet will be the University of Alabama. For Louisiana, LSU and Tulane are both great options, and even Loyola is okay if you're wanting to be in New Orleans. If you're shooting for somewhere like Atlanta though, you'd probably be in good shape going to UGA, UF, UVA, Vandy, Emory, Alabama, or Duke.

But your connections to the region will also matter a bit. If you're a kid from Alabaster, shoot for the moon - you'll have your pick of top-Birmingham firms on your way back from Yale. I'd say that applies across the South. If you're a New Englander or Midwesterner or West Coaster, then you probably need to go to school wherever you're hoping to work.

It's also worth noting, some southern states aren't easy places to practice without some familiarity with the way their laws works and their history. For example, Louisiana still uses civil law (from its time as a French colony), in combination with common law, meaning that if you want to work in Louisiana, you should probably head to LSU (although, you'd probably be okay going to Tulane), or be prepared to cram a whole lot for the bar exam.

Just some thoughts as a southerner.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby lavarman84 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:35 am

Deputy Downer wrote:There's quite a lot of stuff in here that I'd suggest ignoring, but I would like to say that, rather than giving you some arbitrary rankings, it depends on what you consider to be the South and where in the South you want to live and work - and whether or not you have any connections to where you want to be.

So, first, what do you mean by the South? If you just mean states that seceded, there's still a lot of difference between working in Birmingham or New Orleans and Miami or Atlanta for example - they're very different places that draw from very different schools. If you want to work anywhere in Alabama, your best bet will be the University of Alabama. For Louisiana, LSU and Tulane are both great options, and even Loyola is okay if you're wanting to be in New Orleans. If you're shooting for somewhere like Atlanta though, you'd probably be in good shape going to UGA, UF, UVA, Vandy, Emory, Alabama, or Duke.

But your connections to the region will also matter a bit. If you're a kid from Alabaster, shoot for the moon - you'll have your pick of top-Birmingham firms on your way back from Yale. I'd say that applies across the South. If you're a New Englander or Midwesterner or West Coaster, then you probably need to go to school wherever you're hoping to work.

It's also worth noting, some southern states aren't easy places to practice without some familiarity with the way their laws works and their history. For example, Louisiana still uses civil law (from its time as a French colony), in combination with common law, meaning that if you want to work in Louisiana, you should probably head to LSU (although, you'd probably be okay going to Tulane), or be prepared to cram a whole lot for the bar exam.

Just some thoughts as a southerner.


I wouldn't place UF high on your list if you want Atlanta. People from UF go to Atlanta every year, but you'll be better situated to get Atlanta at a school like UGA or Georgia State than UF.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Deputy Downer » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:05 pm

lawman84 wrote:
Deputy Downer wrote:There's quite a lot of stuff in here that I'd suggest ignoring, but I would like to say that, rather than giving you some arbitrary rankings, it depends on what you consider to be the South and where in the South you want to live and work - and whether or not you have any connections to where you want to be.

So, first, what do you mean by the South? If you just mean states that seceded, there's still a lot of difference between working in Birmingham or New Orleans and Miami or Atlanta for example - they're very different places that draw from very different schools. If you want to work anywhere in Alabama, your best bet will be the University of Alabama. For Louisiana, LSU and Tulane are both great options, and even Loyola is okay if you're wanting to be in New Orleans. If you're shooting for somewhere like Atlanta though, you'd probably be in good shape going to UGA, UF, UVA, Vandy, Emory, Alabama, or Duke.

But your connections to the region will also matter a bit. If you're a kid from Alabaster, shoot for the moon - you'll have your pick of top-Birmingham firms on your way back from Yale. I'd say that applies across the South. If you're a New Englander or Midwesterner or West Coaster, then you probably need to go to school wherever you're hoping to work.

It's also worth noting, some southern states aren't easy places to practice without some familiarity with the way their laws works and their history. For example, Louisiana still uses civil law (from its time as a French colony), in combination with common law, meaning that if you want to work in Louisiana, you should probably head to LSU (although, you'd probably be okay going to Tulane), or be prepared to cram a whole lot for the bar exam.

Just some thoughts as a southerner.


I wouldn't place UF high on your list if you want Atlanta. People from UF go to Atlanta every year, but you'll be better situated to get Atlanta at a school like UGA or Georgia State than UF.


Yeah, that's fair. I'd definitely say GSU, UGA, Emory > UF for Atlanta.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:51 pm

I'm just going to throw my two cents in Re: Duke/UVA.

Everyone is right when they say that "the south" is a massive hodgepodge of different good old boy ties with different perceptions. That being said, from what I've seen in FL;

1) Biglaw hiring attorneys know what schools are T14 (though some may forget about Cornell) There's a large transplant community from almost any state down here, so it is just about finding the firm with attorneys who moved down from the state you want.

2) Duke is the king T14 of the state. More people in the State went to Duke, I think it's UG prestige helps with the name recognition (not knocking UVA UG but not many FL 18 year olds are moving up to go there), and I have heard the "Harvard of the south line" more times than I can fathom.

Given that VA is the south, I think that UVA has a big advantage in the richmond/NOVA markets, but I think the further south you go (at least until you get so far south that you start to leave the south) the name recognition of Duke carries it.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby PrezRand » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:28 pm

Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:I'm just going to throw my two cents in Re: Duke/UVA.

Everyone is right when they say that "the south" is a massive hodgepodge of different good old boy ties with different perceptions. That being said, from what I've seen in FL;

1) Biglaw hiring attorneys know what schools are T14 (though some may forget about Cornell) There's a large transplant community from almost any state down here, so it is just about finding the firm with attorneys who moved down from the state you want.

2) Duke is the king T14 of the state. More people in the State went to Duke, I think it's UG prestige helps with the name recognition (not knocking UVA UG but not many FL 18 year olds are moving up to go there), and I have heard the "Harvard of the south line" more times than I can fathom.

Given that VA is the south, I think that UVA has a big advantage in the richmond/NOVA markets, but I think the further south you go (at least until you get so far south that you start to leave the south) the name recognition of Duke carries it.

I think UVA sends more kids back to TX than Duke does

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby BigZuck » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:31 pm

PrezRand wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:I'm just going to throw my two cents in Re: Duke/UVA.

Everyone is right when they say that "the south" is a massive hodgepodge of different good old boy ties with different perceptions. That being said, from what I've seen in FL;

1) Biglaw hiring attorneys know what schools are T14 (though some may forget about Cornell) There's a large transplant community from almost any state down here, so it is just about finding the firm with attorneys who moved down from the state you want.

2) Duke is the king T14 of the state. More people in the State went to Duke, I think it's UG prestige helps with the name recognition (not knocking UVA UG but not many FL 18 year olds are moving up to go there), and I have heard the "Harvard of the south line" more times than I can fathom.

Given that VA is the south, I think that UVA has a big advantage in the richmond/NOVA markets, but I think the further south you go (at least until you get so far south that you start to leave the south) the name recognition of Duke carries it.

I think UVA sends more kids back to TX than Duke does

Doesn't UVA have a larger class size?

I can't imagine, say, Baker Botts liking a UVA bro more than a Dukie

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby PrezRand » Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:43 pm

BigZuck wrote:
PrezRand wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:I'm just going to throw my two cents in Re: Duke/UVA.

Everyone is right when they say that "the south" is a massive hodgepodge of different good old boy ties with different perceptions. That being said, from what I've seen in FL;

1) Biglaw hiring attorneys know what schools are T14 (though some may forget about Cornell) There's a large transplant community from almost any state down here, so it is just about finding the firm with attorneys who moved down from the state you want.

2) Duke is the king T14 of the state. More people in the State went to Duke, I think it's UG prestige helps with the name recognition (not knocking UVA UG but not many FL 18 year olds are moving up to go there), and I have heard the "Harvard of the south line" more times than I can fathom.

Given that VA is the south, I think that UVA has a big advantage in the richmond/NOVA markets, but I think the further south you go (at least until you get so far south that you start to leave the south) the name recognition of Duke carries it.

I think UVA sends more kids back to TX than Duke does

Doesn't UVA have a larger class size?

I can't imagine, say, Baker Botts liking a UVA bro more than a Dukie

UVA does have a larger class size. However, that wouldn't explain why a slightly larger percentage of students come to Texas from UVA and go back to Texas. Another thing to consider is the firms that come to Duke and UVA. More top Texas firms (ranked by Vault) come to UVA. UVA even has branches from Austin, which normally only recruit from Texas or HYS (Really Harvard). I think ATL also shows the top schools by headcount for biglaw firms. Almost every top 10 firm in Texas had UVA in it's top 5 or 10. That wasn't the case for Duke. This led me to think UVA places more students back to Texas.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:13 pm

It really depends on the state/city you want. For instance, if you want Atlanta you would be better off going to Vanderbilt than Northwestern/Cornell. Someone who is top 10% with law review from UGA will often beat out T14 students at median who are not from HYS, Duke, or UVA. There are lots of idiosyncrasies of hiring which are a function of prestige mixed with loyalty to state institutions, and the fact that firms like to hire from law schools where their prominent partners attended.

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Re: Best T14 for south?

Postby Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash » Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:32 am

PrezRand wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
PrezRand wrote:
Dr.Degrees_Cr.Cash wrote:I'm just going to throw my two cents in Re: Duke/UVA.

Everyone is right when they say that "the south" is a massive hodgepodge of different good old boy ties with different perceptions. That being said, from what I've seen in FL;

1) Biglaw hiring attorneys know what schools are T14 (though some may forget about Cornell) There's a large transplant community from almost any state down here, so it is just about finding the firm with attorneys who moved down from the state you want.

2) Duke is the king T14 of the state. More people in the State went to Duke, I think it's UG prestige helps with the name recognition (not knocking UVA UG but not many FL 18 year olds are moving up to go there), and I have heard the "Harvard of the south line" more times than I can fathom.

Given that VA is the south, I think that UVA has a big advantage in the richmond/NOVA markets, but I think the further south you go (at least until you get so far south that you start to leave the south) the name recognition of Duke carries it.

I think UVA sends more kids back to TX than Duke does

Doesn't UVA have a larger class size?

I can't imagine, say, Baker Botts liking a UVA bro more than a Dukie

UVA does have a larger class size. However, that wouldn't explain why a slightly larger percentage of students come to Texas from UVA and go back to Texas. Another thing to consider is the firms that come to Duke and UVA. More top Texas firms (ranked by Vault) come to UVA. UVA even has branches from Austin, which normally only recruit from Texas or HYS (Really Harvard). I think ATL also shows the top schools by headcount for biglaw firms. Almost every top 10 firm in Texas had UVA in it's top 5 or 10. That wasn't the case for Duke. This led me to think UVA places more students back to Texas.


I don't doubt it. Like I said there are definitely a ton of idiosyncrasies in the south. My analysis is largely on the east-coast south and my strongest analysis is in FL. I still think save for the Texas outlier, in general Duke is the T14 for the south



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