Best T14 for south? Forum

[joeytribbiani]

Most of the T14s are northern or on the west coast with the exception of Duke. I don't know exactly where I want to end up living and working specifically, but would prefer somewhere a bit more southern/lower midwest. Aiming for T14 because of prestige/quality but also because I'm young and unsure where I want to end up and don't want to be tied down to the region I go to school in. I'm in at Duke (and a few non-T14s) and waiting on a batch of others. Do any of the T14s have particularly better prospects in these markets based on anything other than their general prestige/ranking? I.e. specific clinics or programs or ties for whatever reason that cause them to send a lot of students to those markets? Would a school such as Vanderbilt have better reach across the south by nature of geography and its reach beyond TN? Money is not a big factor so pretend for argument's sake that everywhere is equal in terms of cost, looking specifically to ease of entry into southern markets. Any input is invited.

[grades??]

If you want the South, Duke is by and far the best choice. UVA is second, but the name might not carry as far south. Barring these two, Vandy is next.

1. Duke
======
2. UVA
3. Vandy
========
everyone else.

[jkpolk]

If you want the South, Duke is by and far the best choice. UVA is second, but the name might not carry as far south. Barring these two, Vandy is next.

1. Duke
======
2. UVA
3. Vandy
========
everyone else.

That's not right. UVA is better for the south. It is bigger and has a higher percentage of alumni who have chosen southern markets in the past. Neither name will be enough to break into an insular southern market by itself (but if you went to Tulane undergrad you probably have a shot at New Orleans, etc.)

[trmckenz]

I don't think UVA > Duke in the South... UVA may be ranked slightly higher, but Duke is private and has a better-known brand (probably thanks to Coach K's basketball program). Bottom line is that they are total peer schools for law firm hiring.

Also, don't forget UT.

Should be:

UVA/Duke
=========
Vandy/UT
=========
Everyone else (depends on market - Emory/Flagship state school/WFU/W&M/W&L/SMU/etc.)

[BigZuck]

Getting hired in a Southern market is going to be way, way, way more of a function of your ties than whatever you decide regarding Duke vs UVA. Or hell, Duke vs Cornell for that matter. I'd still focus on things like cost more than this.

IMO

[BigZuck]

Also I went to UT and I can't imagine it giving much of a leg up in, say, Birmingham over a school like, say, Alabama. UT being a higher-ish ranked school that is lower in latitude doesn't mean it's going to give you a big advantage in the monolithic "The South."

Anyway you're going to have to acquire some more geographic focus here, OP

Again, IMO

[trmckenz]

Agree with BigZuck on the insularity of some southern markets... e.g., someone with ties to an insular market who went to Harvard will likely fare better than someone with no ties to that market but went to a "southern"/target law school.

[20170322]

Duke is primarily out of state students, placing primarily into NYC. Why would it place better in the south than UVA?

[poptart123]

It seems the South lacks in T-14s (comparatively). However, there are plenty of flagships that place well in their markets: UT/Vandy/Emory/Alabama are the biggest after Duke/UVA, which are obviously the strongest.

Then you have other schools that are half decent like UNC/SMU/UH/UGA/W&M. Not sure about W&L, UF, FSU, Tulane, but along with the former, I think they may be okay if you are targeting a specific state with realistic expectations.

[Toni V]

Playing it safe....Top half of the T14 (for those firms focused on prestige), then Duke and UVA, followed by Emory (if the southern big banana Atlanta is in your crosshairs).

[joeytribbiani]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm K-JD and I have a general sense of region I'd like to end up in, but being on the younger side of law school admissions I'm not positive of exactly where I want to be and just wanted to explore the options of where is best to go for a general region without going somewhere that locks me in to a specific city/locality. The advice will all be taken into consideration!

[BigZuck]

They all place well into NYC big law. Some schools located in large legal markets might give you a leg up there (It's probably somewhat easier to get a job in Chicago if you go to Northwestern instead of Berkeley and likewise it's probably somewhat easier to get a job in San Francisco if you go to Berkeley instead of Northwestern). But I don't think it's necessarily the same in "The South" and its hodgepodge of smaller legal markets when you consider Duke and UVA.

All things being equal if I had a southern market in mind and was going to a T14 I'd probably rather go to a Duke/UVA over a Berkeley/Cornell. But are all things ever equal? Also, in a vacuum I'd almost certainly pick Harvard over Duke/UVA for any kind of big law, regardless of latitude.

Focus on cost and try to acquire more geographic focus as soon as possible.

[joeytribbiani]

They all place well into NYC big law. Some schools located in large legal markets might give you a leg up there (It's probably somewhat easier to get a job in Chicago if you go to Northwestern instead of Berkeley and likewise it's probably somewhat easier to get a job in San Francisco if you go to Berkeley instead of Northwestern). But I don't think it's necessarily the same in "The South" and its hodgepodge of smaller legal markets when you consider Duke and UVA.

All things being equal if I had a southern market in mind and was going to a T14 I'd probably rather go to a Duke/UVA over a Berkeley/Cornell. But are all things ever equal? Also, in a vacuum I'd almost certainly pick Harvard over Duke/UVA for any kind of big law, regardless of latitude.

Focus on cost and try to acquire more geographic focus as soon as possible.

I mean, I would also choose Harvard (or Stanford or Yale..), but that is unfortunately out of the question with my numbers haha. Cost really is equal (money left specifically for my school from dead family, both fortunate and very unfortunate) so I really am trying to decide just where geographically makes the most sense. Obviously a hard thing to do when I don't know what the specific end goal is. But I feel like I got some great input from everyone here, so thanks guys!

[zeglo]

.

[Dcc617]

Take a couple years off to be a grownup and work. Retake the LSAT until you're sure you did the best you can. Then, when you have a little more perspective about what you want to do with your life and where you want to live, go to law school if it still appeals to you.

Your question strongly points to you not missing some key experience and knowledge.

[Minnietron]

I'm going to go ahead and say HYS > UVA & Duke.

UVA & Duke probably have larger alumni bases in most southern cities, but HYS could help you overcome most "ties" issues.

[AT9]

HYS (with ties at least, dunno how they'd factor in without ties)
UVA/Duke
.
Vandy/UT
.
.
The southern T50 schools for specific state/city markets

But presxisting ties are pretty crucial regardless of where you go.

[KissMyAxe]

Post Deleted

[AT9]

HYS (with ties at least, dunno how they'd factor in without ties)
UVA/Duke
.
Vandy/UT
.
.
The southern T50 schools for specific state/city markets

But presxisting ties are pretty crucial regardless of where you go.

Very poorly. Maybe Atlanta would be an exception (but Atlanta sucks just so everyone knows), but outside of that, the South would view a HYS grad without ties as a goddamn carpetbagger. Hell, HYS grads with ties are viewed with skepticism by most of the South.

As for the rankings, this is close, but not quite. For one, UVA's sphere of influence is primarily around the Chesapeake Bay Area, where it does extremely well. Most people in the legal field in the South wouldn't raise an eyebrow at an UVA grad. They think it's a good school, but not anything special. In the South, Harvard is unanimously king. Yale is a distant second. Stanford would largely depend on the hiring party. Some people in the know would have it after Yale. However, many are not aware that Stanford is great academically, only knowing about their so-so football program. So, it could vary tremendously. Texas is considered like the greatest school ever in Texas, but people in the southeast do not care about that school (maybe someone else can weigh in with Louisiana's or Arkansas' perspective since they're so close). They'd all put their own state school ahead of it.

So my rankings would be:

Harvard (with ties)
-
Yale (with ties)
-
Duke
-
Vandy
-
UVA/Emory
-
William and Mary
-
Whatever state school rules the state in question (Basically: UT, LSU, Bama, UF/FSU, UGA, USC, UNC, Tenn, etc.)

And yes, ties are mandatory

Are you an attorney or T14 student in the south? Genuine question, as this hasn't been my experience as a 3L in a southern "whatever state school." IME, UVA and Duke grads are viewed similarly in markets like Atlanta and Charlotte. I certainly wouldn't place Emory on par with UVA, and I wouldn't put W&M above most of the other local flagships and state schools. You could maybe include sub-rankings within the non-UVA/Duke/Vandy/UT southern schools, but at that point it's purely cost/state you're targeting (i.e., UF is better for Florida than W&M or Emory, even if USNews says differently). But that's not really the point of this thread.

Regardless, the last point regarding ties should be the take-away.

[SeewhathappensLarry]

UVA 3L here. I'm not convinced ties are absolutely necessary. I'm from the NE, but for a time I was considering moving to the south, so for OGI I cast a wide net and with zero ties got callbacks in Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, Raleigh, and freaking Greenville SC. I ended up going back to the NE but FWIW lots and lots of Southern firms come to UVA, including ones that are purely regional biggish law firms. Very mediocre grades too.

ETA: I think Duke and UVA are very similar across the south. Agreed Harvard is best, though I would second the poster above that said HYS grads are sometimes viewed with skepticism

[BigZuck]

I enjoy rankings threads. They are very good threads and I like them very much.

[lymenheimer]

I enjoy rankings threads. They are very good threads and I like them very much.

Also very effective+accurate

[PrezRand]

Are UVA/Duke significantly better than UT if you want to work in Texas?

[BigZuck]

Are UVA/Duke significantly better than UT if you want to work in Texas?

Generally speaking probably yes, but likely depends on a bunch of factors (the specific firm, your preexisting ties, etc.)

[PrezRand]

Are UVA/Duke significantly better than UT if you want to work in Texas?

Generally speaking probably yes, but likely depends on a bunch of factors (the specific firm, your preexisting ties, etc.)

I have strong ties to TX (lived here for 20 years) and have no plans to leave unless I can crack the DC market or make strong enough grades to give me a shot at a smaller market such as Denver. Most of the top Texas firms only have students from TX schools besides the top 6 firms: Baker Botts, VE, Jones Day, and etc. I have strongly considered applying early to UT just because it is incredibly cheap for in-state students and my COL would be paid by my parents and the school if I was accepted. However, I know Duke/UVA do well in the south.