Ideal Law school for environmental law?

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Pierre I am

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Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:03 pm

I really want to keep focusing my career in environmental policy / law. What are my best options assuming a 3.51 GPA and an LSAT between 170-175?

Is there a possibility of going to any of the T14 schools and finding a decent paying Env law job? I know the starting pay should be around 100-120k.

Knowing this information would help tremendously in figuring out the risk/debt association with certain schools.

Thanks everyone!

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lymenheimer

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby lymenheimer » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:12 pm

What do you mean "focus career in environmental law"? What is your goal job.

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ronanOgara

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby ronanOgara » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:22 pm

Yale, followed by Harvard and Stanford.

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MKC

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby MKC » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:41 pm

ronanOgara wrote:Yale, followed by Harvard and Stanford.


Stop giving terrible advice man.

Vermont is clearly the best for this:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... w-rankings






















Not really OP. RO is right, except Stanford is better for Unicorn jobs than Harvard.
Last edited by MKC on Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pierre I am

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:44 pm

lymenheimer wrote:What do you mean "focus career in environmental law"? What is your goal job.



Honestly anything in the environmental field. I have a background in Climate Science and I currently do CEQA work as a consultant.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:46 pm

I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:51 pm

UVa because of it's DC placement can probably get you some sort of marginal boost.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby MKC » Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:52 pm

Pierre I am wrote:I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".


In all seriousness, when considering law school you shouldn't be considering any particular focus or specialty they advertise. Employers don't care about that stuff, and neither should you. You should be shooting for the T14, and should be trying to pay as little as possible for it. If your LSAT doesn't make this a realistic possibility, then you should retake. Below the T14, it can be a struggle getting a job as a lawyer period, much less as a lawyer in a particular specialty.
Last edited by MKC on Sat Jan 27, 2018 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pierre I am

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:02 pm

pancakes3 wrote:UVa because of it's DC placement can probably get you some sort of marginal boost.



I'll look into it, thanks.


MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".


In all seriousness, when considering law school you shouldn't be considering any particular focus or specialty they advertise. Employers don't care about that stuff, and neither should you. You should be shooting for the T14, and should be trying to pay as little as possible for it. If your LSAT doesn't make this a realistic possibility, then you should retake. Below the T14, it can be a struggle getting a job as a lawyer period, much less as a lawyer in a particular specialty.


Either way I am planning on T14 or not attending at all. I was curious inside the T14 what are my options.

Ideally i'll go with the best school that is offering me the most money.

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lymenheimer

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby lymenheimer » Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:39 pm

Pierre I am wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:What do you mean "focus career in environmental law"? What is your goal job.

Honestly anything in the environmental field. I have a background in Climate Science and I currently do CEQA work as a consultant.

So working with a big firm defending big clients re: allegedly breaking enviro laws? Pick any T14 with good BL+FC placement.

if you want to do policy work, probably don't go to law school.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby zot1 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:07 pm

OP, what side of the table do you want to be in? Government? Plaintiff? Biglaw defense?

I can tell you Vermont and Lewis & Clark have great environmental programs, but you will only be competitively if you're in the top of your class. So this would be a big gamble.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby 20170322 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:23 pm

Pierre I am wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:UVa because of it's DC placement can probably get you some sort of marginal boost.



I'll look into it, thanks.


MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".


In all seriousness, when considering law school you shouldn't be considering any particular focus or specialty they advertise. Employers don't care about that stuff, and neither should you. You should be shooting for the T14, and should be trying to pay as little as possible for it. If your LSAT doesn't make this a realistic possibility, then you should retake. Below the T14, it can be a struggle getting a job as a lawyer period, much less as a lawyer in a particular specialty.


Either way I am planning on T14 or not attending at all. I was curious inside the T14 what are my options.

Ideally i'll go with the best school that is offering me the most money.



You got it.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Rigo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:46 pm

Check out Berkeley.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:37 pm

Rigo wrote:Check out Berkeley.


Since I grew up in the Bay Area i would love to go to Berkeley but they are highly selective from a GPA standpoint. There's no way I could get in, even with a 178+ I would be dubious. Stanford + Berkeley would be dream schools but they are just that... dream schools.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Rigo » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:39 pm

Well just go wherever you get the best value then, regardless of whatever dumb specialty rankings may be out there.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby 21157015576609 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:03 am

SweetTort wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:UVa because of it's DC placement can probably get you some sort of marginal boost.



I'll look into it, thanks.


MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".


In all seriousness, when considering law school you shouldn't be considering any particular focus or specialty they advertise. Employers don't care about that stuff, and neither should you. You should be shooting for the T14, and should be trying to pay as little as possible for it. If your LSAT doesn't make this a realistic possibility, then you should retake. Below the T14, it can be a struggle getting a job as a lawyer period, much less as a lawyer in a particular specialty.


Either way I am planning on T14 or not attending at all. I was curious inside the T14 what are my options.

Ideally i'll go with the best school that is offering me the most money.



You got it.


This. But also, Northwestern might be a good fit. I know it has an environmental law clinic, and last I remember it's splitter friendly.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:04 am

would UCLA or USC be able to place me in the mid-level firms in California?

Seeing how CEQA is only for California surely they would cherry-pick lawyers from California? I realize it's not T14 but it's still in the T20.

I am unsure if anyone has gone through this market. I imagine it would be easier to network locally then let's say go to duke then try to find a job out in California, but I could be completely mistaken (hence why I am asking).

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby Pierre I am » Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:29 am

21157015576609 wrote:
SweetTort wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:UVa because of it's DC placement can probably get you some sort of marginal boost.



I'll look into it, thanks.


MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".


In all seriousness, when considering law school you shouldn't be considering any particular focus or specialty they advertise. Employers don't care about that stuff, and neither should you. You should be shooting for the T14, and should be trying to pay as little as possible for it. If your LSAT doesn't make this a realistic possibility, then you should retake. Below the T14, it can be a struggle getting a job as a lawyer period, much less as a lawyer in a particular specialty.


Either way I am planning on T14 or not attending at all. I was curious inside the T14 what are my options.

Ideally i'll go with the best school that is offering me the most money.



You got it.


This. But also, Northwestern might be a good fit. I know it has an environmental law clinic, and last I remember it's splitter friendly.



Will check it out, thank you!

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby gbullock19 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:35 pm

MarkinKansasCity wrote:
Pierre I am wrote:I have realistic expectations and I don't envision getting into HYS with my GPA/ LSAT score. I would love to go into the Harvard program but that's a dream.

Are there lower T14 schools that might offer something similar, albeit not as "prestigious".


In all seriousness, when considering law school you shouldn't be considering any particular focus or specialty they advertise. Employers don't care about that stuff, and neither should you. You should be shooting for the T14, and should be trying to pay as little as possible for it. If your LSAT doesn't make this a realistic possibility, then you should retake. Below the T14, it can be a struggle getting a job as a lawyer period, much less as a lawyer in a particular specialty.


I've been reading these posts just shaking my head. I feel like these threads are just full of disgruntled ivy leagers who are bitter about burning out or being pushed out of corporate law. How can you say don't consider a specialty? OP is already saying they have significant experience an area where their passion lies. Not everyone wants to go Biglaw or make 120-150k out the gate. Starting at 85k and working your way to 120k isn't a death sentence, especially when you like what you do. SMH

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby zot1 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:04 pm

gbullock19 wrote:I've been reading these posts just shaking my head. I feel like these threads are just full of disgruntled ivy leagers who are bitter about burning out or being pushed out of corporate law. How can you say don't consider a specialty? OP is already saying they have significant experience an area where their passion lies. Not everyone wants to go Biglaw or make 120-150k out the gate. Starting at 85k and working your way to 120k isn't a death sentence, especially when you like what you do. SMH


Because they're rather pointless, especially if you already have relevant experience.

Also, there are employers who will prefer a T14 (or more) grad with some enviro classes than someone who went to Lewis & Clark or Vermont.

More importantly, OP might realize in school this isn't in fact what he wants to do. In which case putting all eggs in one basket will suck big time.

Side note: I do enviro law with no previous experience or classes because that's law for you...

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby gbullock19 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:09 pm

zot1 wrote:
gbullock19 wrote:I've been reading these posts just shaking my head. I feel like these threads are just full of disgruntled ivy leagers who are bitter about burning out or being pushed out of corporate law. How can you say don't consider a specialty? OP is already saying they have significant experience an area where their passion lies. Not everyone wants to go Biglaw or make 120-150k out the gate. Starting at 85k and working your way to 120k isn't a death sentence, especially when you like what you do. SMH


Because they're rather pointless, especially if you already have relevant experience.

Also, there are employers who will prefer a T14 (or more) grad with some enviro classes than someone who went to Lewis & Clark or Vermont.

More importantly, OP might realize in school this isn't in fact what he wants to do. In which case putting all eggs in one basket will suck big time.

Side note: I do enviro law with no previous experience or classes because that's law for you...


Touche! I see what you are saying, I just feel experience might give edge without the T14. But I'm also somebody who doesn't feel 1T/2T is career suicide. Experience and networking and the right opportunity TRUMPS A LOT.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby zot1 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:17 pm

gbullock19 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
gbullock19 wrote:I've been reading these posts just shaking my head. I feel like these threads are just full of disgruntled ivy leagers who are bitter about burning out or being pushed out of corporate law. How can you say don't consider a specialty? OP is already saying they have significant experience an area where their passion lies. Not everyone wants to go Biglaw or make 120-150k out the gate. Starting at 85k and working your way to 120k isn't a death sentence, especially when you like what you do. SMH


Because they're rather pointless, especially if you already have relevant experience.

Also, there are employers who will prefer a T14 (or more) grad with some enviro classes than someone who went to Lewis & Clark or Vermont.

More importantly, OP might realize in school this isn't in fact what he wants to do. In which case putting all eggs in one basket will suck big time.

Side note: I do enviro law with no previous experience or classes because that's law for you...


Touche! I see what you are saying, I just feel experience might give edge without the T14. But I'm also somebody who doesn't feel 1T/2T is career suicide. Experience and networking and the right opportunity TRUMPS A LOT.


Sure, but it depends on what OP wants to do. Another reason, and actually important enough I feel silly I missed it the first time, is that experience can't often overcome grades. Decent grades from even top50 can and often do beat top10% at T2 and TTT.

If OP takes the risk of lower school, depending on his gpa, his resume might not ever be looked at because his gpa from X school doesn't meet the cutoff. So it is important to consider all this stuff.

Most people here might come off as bitter. I think we all just know what the other side of the coin is (graduating with 200k+ debt and no prospects of a job) and we want to warn people who think they are special so this outcome won't be them.

Is it possible to go to a T2 and graduate with a job? Sure. But your chances are incrementally better if you go to better schools.

FWIW, I was one of those stupid dreamers who didn't listen to reason when taking on debt because I wanted to go to law school. But I wanted to become an attorney and law school was the only way there so I didn't have much of a choice. My outcome was extremely lucky though. I feel for the people who are still looking... Some even from the class of 2013 (see The Vale). If you don't make it, the alternative can be a quite scary outcome, mate.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby gbullock19 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:25 pm

Yes I do see what you are saying, but my impression from numbers OP presented that they wouldn't be even close to 200k at a 1T. Maybe not Vanderbilt or UCLA but maybe I'm naive. I'm considering a 3T b/c I got a 90k and will have only 30k debt after scholarship...so maybe I'm a dreamer but I also am ok with a starting salary of 70k first year at small firm. I want a small/boutique feel. I don't think I'd enjoy a big firm even over 50 lawyers. I don't want to have to bill 2100 hours. No thanks!

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby zot1 » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:30 pm

I think I would do more research before thinking you'll come out of a T2 into a 70K salary. Not to burst your bubble or anything.

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Re: Ideal Law school for environmental law?

Postby personofinterest » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:43 am

gbullock19 wrote:Yes I do see what you are saying, but my impression from numbers OP presented that they wouldn't be even close to 200k at a 1T. Maybe not Vanderbilt or UCLA but maybe I'm naive. I'm considering a 3T b/c I got a 90k and will have only 30k debt after scholarship...so maybe I'm a dreamer but I also am ok with a starting salary of 70k first year at small firm. I want a small/boutique feel. I don't think I'd enjoy a big firm even over 50 lawyers. I don't want to have to bill 2100 hours. No thanks!


I think you have a great outcome. 70K starting salary and only 30K debt is good. No one is attacking you, saying that you aren't doing well. The issue with attending a lower ranked school is that many graduates never even get a job as a lawyer.

For example, only 12% of graduates from Lewis and Clark even work at a firm of any size. Sure, many graduates don't want to work at a firm, but only 51% of graduates have a job that requires bar passage. At Duke, however, 90% of graduates have a job that requires bar passage.

Source: https://www.lstreports.com/schools/lewisandclark/
https://www.lstreports.com/schools/duke/jobs/



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