CCN at three different price points?

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T3TON

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CCN at three different price points?

Postby T3TON » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:11 am

This is a situation my friend was in last cycle. She already knows where Im coming from but she is having last minute doubts choice and she agreed to get outside opinions.

She has normal nyc biglaw goals, no family support and no significant prior savings

Options:
1) Columbia at sticker
2) Chicago @ ~60k scholly
3) NYU @~80k scholly

None were willing to budge on money. What would you choose here?

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Barack O'Drama

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Barack O'Drama » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:19 am

Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...
Last edited by Barack O'Drama on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Redfactor

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Redfactor » Tue Aug 09, 2016 3:09 am

Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)

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theconsigliere

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby theconsigliere » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:22 am

Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree that I personally would choose Chi over NYU, mostly because I don't think I'd like NYU. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

**edited for clarity**
Last edited by theconsigliere on Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

zeglo

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby zeglo » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:25 am

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Last edited by zeglo on Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Nebby » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:48 am

theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.

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theconsigliere

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby theconsigliere » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:03 am

Nebby wrote:
theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.


just meant I agree that I personally would go to Chicago, mostly because I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like NYU. fwiw I agree that there's no reason to think Chi > NYU for elite NYC firms

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Nebby » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:04 am

theconsigliere wrote:
Nebby wrote:
theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.


just meant I agree that I personally would go to Chicago, mostly because I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like NYU. fwiw I agree that there's no reason to think Chi > NYU for elite NYC firms

My b. I retract my comment as directed by towards you

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Dcc617

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Dcc617 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:12 am

Cost of living is way lower in Chicago, which balances out the difference in scholarship. I'd say it a matter of personal preference between Chicago and NYU.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Redfactor » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:22 pm

Nebby wrote:
theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.


This is why this site has gone downhill.

The site overwhelmingly parrots only basic, bumper-sticker analysis, but when someone even proposes an alternative view, posters like this attempt to dominate the discourse rather than make legitimate contributions. There is room for reasonable minds to disagree on the matter; no need to be a d-bag.

OP:
There is simply not enough evidence to conclusively state which school has the advantage, but what's available does suggest that UChi has the upper hand, unless something has changed in the last couple years.

This is not a knock on Columbia or NYU, and it's not arguing that Chicago is a superior law school or anything. I am simply saying that there is a valid, reasoned argument that UChi students have an edge over Columbia or NYU students for elite NY firms, and that I personally subscribe to this view.

Firms want diverse classes with representation from UChi. They want a presence on UChi's campus with hired 3Ls the same as they want to have a presence at Columbia and NYU. The difference is that UChi has a small class size and the majority of UChi students do not want to work in NYC. Only around ~20% of UChi grads work in NY (presumably even fewer in NY biglaw). That's only 30-40 total students available for all of the NY firms.

Columbia and NYU each pump out 300+ students into NY, likely 200+ into NY biglaw.

And with most firms' hiring practices, students are competing against peers for jobs, not students from other law schools. So when it comes to hiring, Columbia grads are not competing against NYU grads or UChi grads. They're competing against other Columbia students for a "Columbia" slot in the class. Same is true at NYU and UChi.

So, a NY V5 firm wants to take 12 Columbia students, 12 NYU students and 6 UChi students. Columbia and NYU each have 200 students jockeying for one of these 12 spots. Meanwhile at UChi, there are 40 (and that's generous) competing for 6 slots. It's a better position to be in.

Also, take into account that there are simply not enough UChi grads to go around for NY. So a UChi student who would be the only UChi student Firm X could get that year might be more desirable than adding a 7th Columbia/NYU student to the class, despite inferior credentials. It's for this reason that V5 firms have tended to dip lower into UChi classes (bottom 1/3) than at Columbia or NYU (generally top 1/3 to 1/2).

--------

This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.

--------

Now, while I think there is an advantage to going to UChi over Columbia or NYU if one wants NY biglaw, I don't think it's worth the hassle if you don't like the school or you'd prefer to live in one city over the other. For that reason, I stand by my original position that she should 1) not go to CLS (because of the debt), and 2) choose between UChi and NYU based on where she would like to spend the next three years of her life and which school she likes more.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Nebby » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:46 pm

Redfactor wrote:
Nebby wrote:
theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.


This is why this site has gone downhill.

The site overwhelmingly parrots only basic, bumper-sticker analysis, but when someone even proposes an alternative view, posters like this attempt to dominate the discourse rather than make legitimate contributions. There is room for reasonable minds to disagree on the matter; no need to be a d-bag.

OP:
There is simply not enough evidence to conclusively state which school has the advantage, but what's available does suggest that UChi has the upper hand, unless something has changed in the last couple years.

This is not a knock on Columbia or NYU, and it's not arguing that Chicago is a superior law school or anything. I am simply saying that there is a valid, reasoned argument that UChi students have an edge over Columbia or NYU students for elite NY firms, and that I personally subscribe to this view.

Firms want diverse classes with representation from UChi. They want a presence on UChi's campus with hired 3Ls the same as they want to have a presence at Columbia and NYU. The difference is that UChi has a small class size and the majority of UChi students do not want to work in NYC. Only around ~20% of UChi grads work in NY (presumably even fewer in NY biglaw). That's only 30-40 total students available for all of the NY firms.

Columbia and NYU each pump out 300+ students into NY, likely 200+ into NY biglaw.

And with most firms' hiring practices, students are competing against peers for jobs, not students from other law schools. So when it comes to hiring, Columbia grads are not competing against NYU grads or UChi grads. They're competing against other Columbia students for a "Columbia" slot in the class. Same is true at NYU and UChi.

So, a NY V5 firm wants to take 12 Columbia students, 12 NYU students and 6 UChi students. Columbia and NYU each have 200 students jockeying for one of these 12 spots. Meanwhile at UChi, there are 40 (and that's generous) competing for 6 slots. It's a better position to be in.

Also, take into account that there are simply not enough UChi grads to go around for NY. So a UChi student who would be the only UChi student Firm X could get that year might be more desirable than adding a 7th Columbia/NYU student to the class, despite inferior credentials. It's for this reason that V5 firms have tended to dip lower into UChi classes (bottom 1/3) than at Columbia or NYU (generally top 1/3 to 1/2).

--------

This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.

--------

Now, while I think there is an advantage to going to UChi over Columbia or NYU if one wants NY biglaw, I don't think it's worth the hassle if you don't like the school or you'd prefer to live in one city over the other. For that reason, I stand by my original position that she should 1) not go to CLS (because of the debt), and 2) choose between UChi and NYU based on where she would like to spend the next three years of her life and which school she likes more.

Yes. Please take advice from this 0L

Redfactor

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Redfactor » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:54 pm

Nebby wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Nebby wrote:
theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.


This is why this site has gone downhill.

The site overwhelmingly parrots only basic, bumper-sticker analysis, but when someone even proposes an alternative view, posters like this attempt to dominate the discourse rather than make legitimate contributions. There is room for reasonable minds to disagree on the matter; no need to be a d-bag.

OP:
There is simply not enough evidence to conclusively state which school has the advantage, but what's available does suggest that UChi has the upper hand, unless something has changed in the last couple years.

This is not a knock on Columbia or NYU, and it's not arguing that Chicago is a superior law school or anything. I am simply saying that there is a valid, reasoned argument that UChi students have an edge over Columbia or NYU students for elite NY firms, and that I personally subscribe to this view.

Firms want diverse classes with representation from UChi. They want a presence on UChi's campus with hired 3Ls the same as they want to have a presence at Columbia and NYU. The difference is that UChi has a small class size and the majority of UChi students do not want to work in NYC. Only around ~20% of UChi grads work in NY (presumably even fewer in NY biglaw). That's only 30-40 total students available for all of the NY firms.

Columbia and NYU each pump out 300+ students into NY, likely 200+ into NY biglaw.

And with most firms' hiring practices, students are competing against peers for jobs, not students from other law schools. So when it comes to hiring, Columbia grads are not competing against NYU grads or UChi grads. They're competing against other Columbia students for a "Columbia" slot in the class. Same is true at NYU and UChi.

So, a NY V5 firm wants to take 12 Columbia students, 12 NYU students and 6 UChi students. Columbia and NYU each have 200 students jockeying for one of these 12 spots. Meanwhile at UChi, there are 40 (and that's generous) competing for 6 slots. It's a better position to be in.

Also, take into account that there are simply not enough UChi grads to go around for NY. So a UChi student who would be the only UChi student Firm X could get that year might be more desirable than adding a 7th Columbia/NYU student to the class, despite inferior credentials. It's for this reason that V5 firms have tended to dip lower into UChi classes (bottom 1/3) than at Columbia or NYU (generally top 1/3 to 1/2).

--------

This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.

--------

Now, while I think there is an advantage to going to UChi over Columbia or NYU if one wants NY biglaw, I don't think it's worth the hassle if you don't like the school or you'd prefer to live in one city over the other. For that reason, I stand by my original position that she should 1) not go to CLS (because of the debt), and 2) choose between UChi and NYU based on where she would like to spend the next three years of her life and which school she likes more.

Yes. Please take advice from this 0L


I'm done with law school.

But by all means, continue with your solid contributions, troll.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Nebby » Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:57 pm

Ah I see we are getting somewhere. Are you involved in hiring at your firm?

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby dabigchina » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:15 pm

Redfactor wrote:
There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU.

lol

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby HYPSM » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:51 pm

Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


This is completely unfounded and non-sensical bullshit pulled out of his ass. Please ignore this in its entirety.

All of your "arguments" are anecdotal/speculative, and therefore, invalid. If you are so certain, provide legitimate sources and data to support your claims.

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anyriotgirl

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby anyriotgirl » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:36 pm

Redfactor wrote:This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.


while you don't need to go to the same school as the hiring partner, it certainly seems to help, and I know more than one person with meh grades who managed to network their way into big law jobs they probably wouldn't have gotten from an OCI screener alone
Last edited by anyriotgirl on Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BizBro

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby BizBro » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:53 pm

Lol the Chicago > NY Schools for big law explanation was amusing and entertaining, but untrue, at least until I see some solid evidence.

OP, Cost of living will probably cancel out the $ differential between Chicago and NYC over the 3 years. Pick the school you like better (Chicago v. NYU, obviously Columbia is out). NYC is going to be more fun, IMO. Also, Chicago winters suck.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Redfactor » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:22 am

anyriotgirl wrote:
Redfactor wrote:This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.


while you don't need to go to the same school as the hiring partner, it certainly seems to help, and I know more than one person with meh grades who managed to network their way into big law jobs they probably wouldn't have gotten from an OCI screener alone


That's awesome to hear, though I think that's more an exception than the rule when it comes to OCI hiring at any of CCN :)
I will say, though, that being at Columbia/NYU is likely much better to hustle/network if you happen to be an unlucky one that strikes out at at OCI.

----------

While I recognize that going to UChi over Columbia/NYU for NY Biglaw is counterintuitive, it's hardly a new idea:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177847&hilit=elite+NY+biglaw+chicago

I encourage people to learn about how firms approach OCI recruiting to fill their classes and how that interplays with particular schools.

----------

This thread is officially derailed. This will be my last post within it.

Feel free to PM if you want to continue insults / whatnot :)

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:44 am

Redfactor wrote:
anyriotgirl wrote:
Redfactor wrote:This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.


while you don't need to go to the same school as the hiring partner, it certainly seems to help, and I know more than one person with meh grades who managed to network their way into big law jobs they probably wouldn't have gotten from an OCI screener alone


That's awesome to hear, though I think that's more an exception than the rule when it comes to OCI hiring at any of CCN :)
I will say, though, that being at Columbia/NYU is likely much better to hustle/network if you happen to be an unlucky one that strikes out at at OCI.

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While I recognize that going to UChi over Columbia/NYU for NY Biglaw is counterintuitive, it's hardly a new idea:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177847&hilit=elite+NY+biglaw+chicago

I encourage people to learn about how firms approach OCI recruiting to fill their classes and how that interplays with particular schools.

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This thread is officially derailed. This will be my last post within it.

Feel free to PM if you want to continue insults / whatnot :)


Have you ever been through an OCI at a top school? Do you know any of this information first hand? It doesn't read like it.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby lawlorbust » Wed Aug 10, 2016 12:54 am

Redfactor wrote:
Nebby wrote:
theconsigliere wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
Barack O'Drama wrote:Assuming she won't retake....

NYU seems to be make the most sense given the NYC big law goals.

I don't think many would argue that Columbia is worth 80K more than NYU with NYC big law goals.
And if she is gunning for NYC then I don't see any point in taking Chi over NYU...


There's a strong argument to be made that it's easier to get elite NY firms from UChi than from Columbia or NYU. If she's having second thoughts about going to UChi instead of a NY school, she shouldn't.

I think Columbia is worst of the three options due to the additional cost.

Between UChi and NYU, I think it comes down to personal preference for where she'd like to live the next three years and which school is a better "fit".

(I personally would go UChi out of the three options.)


I agree. UChi also is best for clerking which is a good experience no matter what you want to do.

I can't say for sure because I haven't visited both schools but I think you'd find that they are very different in terms of atmosphere. I would do some research on what the campus and culture is like at each school - i.e. NYU has a pretty strong PI bent and UChi is stereotypically kinda nerdy - and see which is the best fit. I'm not sure saving $20k over 3 years is worth going to a school you won't like over a school you will. But it can certainly be a thumb on the scale for NYU

Lol

Uchi has no advantage over NYU in terms of "elite" NY firms. Can you people who literally know nothing stop giving bad advice to people seeking actual information? Jfc

OP, NYU for NYC biglaw is the way to go.


This is why this site has gone downhill.

The site overwhelmingly parrots only basic, bumper-sticker analysis, but when someone even proposes an alternative view, posters like this attempt to dominate the discourse rather than make legitimate contributions. There is room for reasonable minds to disagree on the matter; no need to be a d-bag.

OP:
There is simply not enough evidence to conclusively state which school has the advantage, but what's available does suggest that UChi has the upper hand, unless something has changed in the last couple years.

This is not a knock on Columbia or NYU, and it's not arguing that Chicago is a superior law school or anything. I am simply saying that there is a valid, reasoned argument that UChi students have an edge over Columbia or NYU students for elite NY firms, and that I personally subscribe to this view.

Firms want diverse classes with representation from UChi. They want a presence on UChi's campus with hired 3Ls the same as they want to have a presence at Columbia and NYU. The difference is that UChi has a small class size and the majority of UChi students do not want to work in NYC. Only around ~20% of UChi grads work in NY (presumably even fewer in NY biglaw). That's only 30-40 total students available for all of the NY firms.

Columbia and NYU each pump out 300+ students into NY, likely 200+ into NY biglaw.

And with most firms' hiring practices, students are competing against peers for jobs, not students from other law schools. So when it comes to hiring, Columbia grads are not competing against NYU grads or UChi grads. They're competing against other Columbia students for a "Columbia" slot in the class. Same is true at NYU and UChi.

So, a NY V5 firm wants to take 12 Columbia students, 12 NYU students and 6 UChi students. Columbia and NYU each have 200 students jockeying for one of these 12 spots. Meanwhile at UChi, there are 40 (and that's generous) competing for 6 slots. It's a better position to be in.

Also, take into account that there are simply not enough UChi grads to go around for NY. So a UChi student who would be the only UChi student Firm X could get that year might be more desirable than adding a 7th Columbia/NYU student to the class, despite inferior credentials. It's for this reason that V5 firms have tended to dip lower into UChi classes (bottom 1/3) than at Columbia or NYU (generally top 1/3 to 1/2).

--------

This isn't the show Suits. You don't need to go to the same law school as the hiring partner. And these are also not the type of jobs that you can simply network your way into during a cocktail event, so there's no need to go to the local school. And finally, the strength of the alumni/ae network or Columbia or NYU isn't going get you a shot over a UChi student because when these firms go to OCI at UChi, they go with the intent to hire UChi students.

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Now, while I think there is an advantage to going to UChi over Columbia or NYU if one wants NY biglaw, I don't think it's worth the hassle if you don't like the school or you'd prefer to live in one city over the other. For that reason, I stand by my original position that she should 1) not go to CLS (because of the debt), and 2) choose between UChi and NYU based on where she would like to spend the next three years of her life and which school she likes more.


Cosigned. Nebby does get props for raising oppositeland trolling to an art form, though.

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Tiago Splitter

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:56 am

FWIW I agree with redfactor. Seems like median to V5 NYC isn't the same challenge from Chicago that it is from CLS/NYU.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby iliketurtles123 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:28 am

Holy crap really? Do people really think there is a difference between Chi and NYU?

Just pick where you want to live for 3 years.

Note: if you want NYC biglaw, I would start off in NYC. Moving to NYC is a hassle that I don't think I'd want to do more than once. But that's just me.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby ObiWahooKenobi » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:48 am

I was in a very similar situation last year: Columbia $0, U Chicago $60k, NYU $75k. If those had been my only choices, I would have chosen U Chicago for professional and personal reasons which differ from the OP's:
• U Chicago places much better for clerkships (http://excessofdemocracy.com/blog/2016/ ... -2013-2015)
• U Chicago produces more academics, both raw and indexed by class size (http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009 ... hing.shtml)
• U Chicago is consistently more highly ranked by US News and Above the Law (in the case of Above the Law, the difference is dramatic – #3 vs. #15). Anecdotally, lawyers and non-lawyers I have spoken with, including non-law academics, seem more impressed with U Chicago.
• NYU rubbed me the wrong way when I visited, but that is entirely personal and needn't factor into others' decisions.

Unless OP does poorly in school, she/he will be able to get a job at a good NYC law firm either way, and cost is essentially the same. If she/he is location and school culture agnostic, U Chicago seems to be the better choice. As other commentators have noted, though, it's probably close enough that personal taste could decide the matter.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby Nebby » Wed Aug 10, 2016 9:50 am

Uchicago also produces more potential serial killers, too.

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Re: CCN at three different price points?

Postby BizBro » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:50 am

Nebby wrote:Uchicago also produces more potential serial killers, too.



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