Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:52 am

So I have a scholarship to both. Widener's 42,000 reduced to 22,000, and Umass-Dartmouth's 32,000 reduced to 15,000. W=81% bar pass. UD=67% bar pass. W=89.7% employment. and UD=79% employment. I am deterred. I want to practice law in Connecticut. For the money, which one is the better choice?

WinSome

New
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby WinSome » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:35 am

Where are you getting these numbers at? I'm getting 49% full time legal employment for Widener and 34% for UMass Dartmouth.

Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:47 am

WinSome wrote:Where are you getting these numbers at? I'm getting 49% full time legal employment for Widener and 34% for UMass Dartmouth.


http://law-schools.startclass.com/l/174 ... Harrisburg
http://law-schools.startclass.com/l/213 ... -Dartmouth

Where do you get your data?

User avatar
BasilHallward

Silver
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:19 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby BasilHallward » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:04 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:
WinSome wrote:Where are you getting these numbers at? I'm getting 49% full time legal employment for Widener and 34% for UMass Dartmouth.


http://law-schools.startclass.com/l/174 ... Harrisburg
http://law-schools.startclass.com/l/213 ... -Dartmouth

Where do you get your data?


From the schools' respective websites. The ABA reported job data for full-time legal employment. Your numbers take into account graduates who work as Baristas at Starbucks. Presumably, folks go to law school to obtain full-time legal employment (JD required).

http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/schooloflaw/admissions/abarequireddisclosures/employment_summary_fifteen.pdf

http://delawarelaw.widener.edu/current-students/career-development-office/employment-statistics-and-trends/2015-2016/

do the math yourself: # of graduates with full-time JD required jobs/ total # of graduates

Let us know what you come back with.

Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:27 am

From the schools' respective websites. The ABA reported job data for full-time legal employment. Your numbers take into account graduates who work as Baristas at Starbucks. Presumably, folks go to law school to obtain full-time legal employment (JD required).

http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/schooloflaw/admissions/abarequireddisclosures/employment_summary_fifteen.pdf

http://delawarelaw.widener.edu/current-students/career-development-office/employment-statistics-and-trends/2015-2016/

do the math yourself: # of graduates with full-time JD required jobs/ total # of graduates

Let us know what you come back with.[/quote]


Okay, so given the price of tuition, based on my offers, which school do you suppose is the best for the money. W tuition is 22,000 and UD is 15,000.

WinSome

New
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby WinSome » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:33 am

BasilHallward wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:
WinSome wrote:Where are you getting these numbers at? I'm getting 49% full time legal employment for Widener and 34% for UMass Dartmouth.


http://law-schools.startclass.com/l/174 ... Harrisburg
http://law-schools.startclass.com/l/213 ... -Dartmouth

Where do you get your data?


From the schools' respective websites. The ABA reported job data for full-time legal employment. Your numbers take into account graduates who work as Baristas at Starbucks. Presumably, folks go to law school to obtain full-time legal employment (JD required).

http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/schooloflaw/admissions/abarequireddisclosures/employment_summary_fifteen.pdf

http://delawarelaw.widener.edu/current-students/career-development-office/employment-statistics-and-trends/2015-2016/

do the math yourself: # of graduates with full-time JD required jobs/ total # of graduates

Let us know what you come back with.


This is exactly what I did to get my numbers. Usually I go to law school transparency but the site was down so I used their own numbers. The question is, OP, are you looking to go to law school to be employed in any position whatsoever, or are you going to law school to be a lawyer? If it's the latter, then I'd recomend retaking the LSAT. If you have to choose between the two, I'd pick Widener because it has better employment, although those numbers are still pretty bad. Also to take into consideration, if you want to work in PA/DE pick Widener, if you want to work in MA pick UMass, if you want to work anywhere else reapply. I'd still strongly recommend sitting out a year and retaking.

User avatar
BasilHallward

Silver
Posts: 547
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:19 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby BasilHallward » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:39 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:From the schools' respective websites. The ABA reported job data for full-time legal employment. Your numbers take into account graduates who work as Baristas at Starbucks. Presumably, folks go to law school to obtain full-time legal employment (JD required).

http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/schooloflaw/admissions/abarequireddisclosures/employment_summary_fifteen.pdf

http://delawarelaw.widener.edu/current-students/career-development-office/employment-statistics-and-trends/2015-2016/

do the math yourself: # of graduates with full-time JD required jobs/ total # of graduates

Let us know what you come back with.



Okay, so given the price of tuition, based on my offers, which school do you suppose is the best for the money. W tuition is 22,000 and UD is 15,000.[/quote]

You didn't draw the inference I was hoping for from my last post. Let me sum it up for you: If your goal is to have a reasonable chance at legal employment that pays over $40k, then avoid these schools like the plague. I cannot advocate for these schools under nearly any circumstance.

Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:50 am

http://commonwealthlaw.widener.edu/file ... monwea.pdf

Okay, so I was talking about widener commonwealth. It has 53% JD required employment. I feel this is a good choice. I wanted to work in CT. But PA is fine as well. And I can gain experience and move. I may not have too much trouble with debt--being the 20,000 scholarship. It's a set scholarship to keep the whole three years. I worry about being a school with a non-intellectually stimulating environment--but that's the price you pay for not having 155 plus lsat.

WinSome

New
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 5:50 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby WinSome » Sat Jul 09, 2016 3:13 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:http://commonwealthlaw.widener.edu/files/resources/2015_2016_employmentstatsandtrendswidenercommonwea.pdf

Okay, so I was talking about widener commonwealth. It has 53% JD required employment. I feel this is a good choice. I wanted to work in CT. But PA is fine as well. And I can gain experience and move. I may not have too much trouble with debt--being the 20,000 scholarship. It's a set scholarship to keep the whole three years. I worry about being a school with a non-intellectually stimulating environment--but that's the price you pay for not having 155 plus lsat.


That's the point. Take a year off get your LSAT up to 165+ and go to BU/BC if you want to be in the northeast. These schools are not a good investment.

cavalier1138

Gold
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:09 am

What kind of law do you want to practice?

And just FYI, neither of these schools placed more than a single student in CT last year (and that's assuming there was a single one), so if you want to practice there, neither is a good option. Hell, they're both terrible if you want to practice at all, but they're even worse for your specific goals.

User avatar
Clemenceau

Silver
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:33 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Clemenceau » Sat Jul 09, 2016 8:28 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:I wanted to work in CT. But PA is fine as well.


Ehhh PAs legal market is hardly booming, and it's very insular. I would not expect someone from out of state to come here, go to a law school like widener, and get a lawyer job in PA.

AntsInMyEyesJohnson

New
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby AntsInMyEyesJohnson » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:07 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:http://commonwealthlaw.widener.edu/files/resources/2015_2016_employmentstatsandtrendswidenercommonwea.pdf

Okay, so I was talking about widener commonwealth. It has 53% JD required employment. I feel this is a good choice. I wanted to work in CT. But PA is fine as well. And I can gain experience and move. I may not have too much trouble with debt--being the 20,000 scholarship. It's a set scholarship to keep the whole three years. I worry about being a school with a non-intellectually stimulating environment--but that's the price you pay for not having 155 plus lsat.


If you're okay with a 50/50 shot a being a lawyer, it doesn't sound like law school is what you should be looking at doing for the next three years. Also, take a closer look at how much law school will cost you with $20,000 a year scholarship. I just glanced at their reported cost of attendance quickly, but it looks like total cost per year is around $65,000. So, bring that down to $45,000 a year and multiply that by three, plus interest if you're taking out loans. You're looking at over 150k in debt with a 50/50 shot of landing a job that probably pays less than $50,000 a year. Neither the CT nor the PA market, to my knowledge, is lacking lawyers, plus you'll be competing against other grads with degrees from schools that employers prefer by a pretty large margin.

I don't mean to put down your goals, but I think it would be unwise to attend either of these schools even with the scholarships.

User avatar
bmathers

Silver
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:27 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby bmathers » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:10 am

Originally being from PA, and going to undergrad at PSU, I am familiar with Widener. Widener has enough "name" in the immediate area of Harrisburg (read, 1-1.5 hr radius) to help you get a low-payimg entry-level job ($40-50k/yr). I know RECENT Widener grads who did exactly this - they got an entry-level position as an associate at a small, local firm.

Furthermore, my father is a sr partner and hiring partner in that area at a small firm. He has said in the past that he wouldn't bat an eye at a Widener grad and would have them in for an interview, as long as the rest of the resume checks out. Keep in mind, this is for a $40-50k entry position in a SMALL firm. With COL in the area, you can live frugally on that, as long as you are very careful in your debt.

User avatar
Clemenceau

Silver
Posts: 942
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:33 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Clemenceau » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:13 am

AntsInMyEyesJohnson wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:http://commonwealthlaw.widener.edu/files/resources/2015_2016_employmentstatsandtrendswidenercommonwea.pdf

Okay, so I was talking about widener commonwealth. It has 53% JD required employment. I feel this is a good choice. I wanted to work in CT. But PA is fine as well. And I can gain experience and move. I may not have too much trouble with debt--being the 20,000 scholarship. It's a set scholarship to keep the whole three years. I worry about being a school with a non-intellectually stimulating environment--but that's the price you pay for not having 155 plus lsat.


If you're okay with a 50/50 shot a being a lawyer, it doesn't sound like law school is what you should be looking at doing for the next three years. Also, take a closer look at how much law school will cost you with $20,000 a year scholarship. I just glanced at their reported cost of attendance quickly, but it looks like total cost per year is around $65,000. So, bring that down to $45,000 a year and multiply that by three, plus interest if you're taking out loans. You're looking at over 150k in debt with a 50/50 shot of landing a job that probably pays less than $50,000 a year. Neither the CT nor the PA market, to my knowledge, is lacking lawyers, plus you'll be competing against other grads with degrees from schools that employers prefer by a pretty large margin.

I don't mean to put down your goals, but I think it would be unwise to attend either of these schools even with the scholarships.


Jesus widener is that expensive?

cavalier1138

Gold
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:58 am

Ok, so after a closer read, I missed these gems:

Pilloriedbrain wrote:It has 53% JD required employment. I feel this is a good choice.


You do? What part of a coin's flip chance of being a lawyer (and not one who makes enough to pay off your debt) sounds like a good choice?

Pilloriedbrain wrote:I worry about being a school with a non-intellectually stimulating environment--but that's the price you pay for not having 155 plus lsat.


That shouldn't be your biggest worry here. Your biggest worry should be not having a job. And the price you'll pay will be over $150k.

Hell, at this point, I'm starting to think that you didn't notice your scholarship comes with a stipulation, because that's a standard practice at Widener.

AntsInMyEyesJohnson

New
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 11:26 am

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby AntsInMyEyesJohnson » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:48 am

Clemenceau wrote:
AntsInMyEyesJohnson wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:http://commonwealthlaw.widener.edu/files/resources/2015_2016_employmentstatsandtrendswidenercommonwea.pdf

Okay, so I was talking about widener commonwealth. It has 53% JD required employment. I feel this is a good choice. I wanted to work in CT. But PA is fine as well. And I can gain experience and move. I may not have too much trouble with debt--being the 20,000 scholarship. It's a set scholarship to keep the whole three years. I worry about being a school with a non-intellectually stimulating environment--but that's the price you pay for not having 155 plus lsat.


If you're okay with a 50/50 shot a being a lawyer, it doesn't sound like law school is what you should be looking at doing for the next three years. Also, take a closer look at how much law school will cost you with $20,000 a year scholarship. I just glanced at their reported cost of attendance quickly, but it looks like total cost per year is around $65,000. So, bring that down to $45,000 a year and multiply that by three, plus interest if you're taking out loans. You're looking at over 150k in debt with a 50/50 shot of landing a job that probably pays less than $50,000 a year. Neither the CT nor the PA market, to my knowledge, is lacking lawyers, plus you'll be competing against other grads with degrees from schools that employers prefer by a pretty large margin.

I don't mean to put down your goals, but I think it would be unwise to attend either of these schools even with the scholarships.


Jesus widener is that expensive?


Wait until they put in a lazy river.

Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:50 am

[quote="cavalier1138"]What kind of law do you want to practice?

I wanted to work in public service. Or administrative.

cavalier1138

Gold
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:09 pm

Pilloriedbrain wrote:I wanted to work in public service. Or administrative.


What kind of public service?

Mikey

Platinum
Posts: 8047
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Mikey » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:55 pm

OP, neither of these schools are good choices.

Widener's 2015 graduating class only had a 48.2% employment rate. Even if your proposed 53% JD required stats were to be considered more accurate, that's still not that good.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/widener-de/2015/

Umass's 2015 graduating class has a 27.6% employment rate. I'll just leave it at that.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/umassd/

Best thing to do is sit out and retake the LSAT.

User avatar
Nachoo2019

Silver
Posts: 798
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:04 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Nachoo2019 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:24 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:Hell, at this point, I'm starting to think that you didn't notice your scholarship comes with a stipulation, because that's a standard practice at Widener.


I just checked out the 509 and they don't do conditional $$ (which is surprising), but that's besides the point.


OP, a 20k scholarship leaves you with 150k in debt at graduation. Unless the school you're choosing is in the Top 10 and you have big law aspirations then 150k in debt could ruin your life.

cavalier1138

Gold
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby cavalier1138 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:36 pm

Nachoo2019 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Hell, at this point, I'm starting to think that you didn't notice your scholarship comes with a stipulation, because that's a standard practice at Widener.


I just checked out the 509 and they don't do conditional $$ (which is surprising), but that's besides the point.


OP, a 20k scholarship leaves you with 150k in debt at graduation. Unless the school you're choosing is in the Top 10 and you have big law aspirations then 150k in debt could ruin your life.


Huh, weird. Maybe it was the other Widener? I could swear there was a thread a month or so back about conditional scholarships at Widener...

Mikey

Platinum
Posts: 8047
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:24 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Mikey » Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:52 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Nachoo2019 wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:Hell, at this point, I'm starting to think that you didn't notice your scholarship comes with a stipulation, because that's a standard practice at Widener.


I just checked out the 509 and they don't do conditional $$ (which is surprising), but that's besides the point.


OP, a 20k scholarship leaves you with 150k in debt at graduation. Unless the school you're choosing is in the Top 10 and you have big law aspirations then 150k in debt could ruin your life.


Huh, weird. Maybe it was the other Widener? I could swear there was a thread a month or so back about conditional scholarships at Widener...

You know, if I would've never searched LST for Widener for TT, I would've never known there was more than 1 Widener. Ha.

Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:06 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:I wanted to work in public service. Or administrative.


What kind of public service?


Mental health, workers compensation, discrimination, human rights, domestic violence, and I was also holding a lofty dream of working for an international organization, like UNICEF if they needed lawyers.

cavalier1138

Gold
Posts: 4955
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:01 am

Pilloriedbrain wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:
Pilloriedbrain wrote:I wanted to work in public service. Or administrative.


What kind of public service?


Mental health, workers compensation, discrimination, human rights, domestic violence, and I was also holding a lofty dream of working for an international organization, like UNICEF if they needed lawyers.


Well, a few local organizations in some of those areas might be within reach from a school like Widener, assuming you aren't in the 1/3 of the class that they fail out to protect their accreditation.

But human rights, anti-discrimination work, international work, etc.? Not happening from either of these schools.

You've already been given the right answer here: retake and reapply next year to get better options.

Pilloriedbrain

New
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:15 pm

Re: Widener v. Umass-Dartmouth

Postby Pilloriedbrain » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:29 am

I had no idea public interest was so difficult to get into. After all, they get paid below average, and their work is mainly for the non-profit.



Return to “Choosing a Law School�

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests