Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
JCDante
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:24 pm

Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby JCDante » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:06 pm

I've always been under the impression that employment prospects from UCLA and USC were pretty much the same - then I compared their Law School Transparency statistics and found this.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

UCLA has a 6 and a half point employment advantage over USC. Additionally, UCLA sits at nearly a 45 percent fed clerk + large firm score, whereas USC is only at 37 percent. UCLA trumps them with public service numbers too, and even has a lower public service number than USC.

And to my knowledge, USC gets a bad rep with ATL. They didn't even rank them, while UCLA is at #19.

Just kind of had my mind blown - I've always been told these schools were equal (in that top 1/3 of the class at both schools = Big Law and fed). Now it looks like that's the case for USC, but in the case of UCLA, top 45 percent = Big Law and fed?

Redfactor
Posts: 412
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby Redfactor » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:38 pm

For what it's worth, I consider them peer schools.

Go to the one that's cheaper.

BigZuck
Posts: 11716
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:24 pm

Percentage big law does not equal that's what percent in the class you need to end up in to get it.

If you're an otherwise schmo-y candidate I'm guessing your chances at big law are about the same. Doable from top 1/3 but nowhere near a lock. Really really iffy at median but it happens to some. Good luck with bad grades.

I can't imagine that employers don't consider the schools equivalent, by and large.

Go to whichever is cheaper.

User avatar
still
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 12:43 am

contrary to what many TLSers would urge you to believe, the gap between ucla and usc is bigger than say the gap between ucla and georgetown (cough: east coast bias: cough)

unless you count things like GT's rich history, notable alumni, government connection as more important than more tangible things like employment prospects, school funded rate, etc

Redfactor
Posts: 412
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:08 am

still wrote:contrary to what many TLSers would urge you to believe, the gap between ucla and usc is bigger than say the gap between ucla and georgetown (cough: east coast bias: cough)

unless you count things like GT's rich history, notable alumni, government connection as more important than more tangible things like employment prospects, school funded rate, etc


No.

BigZuck
Posts: 11716
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:12 am

still wrote:contrary to what many TLSers would urge you to believe, the gap between ucla and usc is bigger than say the gap between ucla and georgetown (cough: east coast bias: cough)

unless you count things like GT's rich history, notable alumni, government connection as more important than more tangible things like employment prospects, school funded rate, etc

still wrote:ucla'er here. Also rising 2L

This is Silly Billyness. It's NAGL when us "T15"ers try and inflate our schools like this. There's a solid gap in terms of employment prospects between GULC and everything below it.

Now as for UCLA and USC, how do you quantify this gap? Employers actually have a lower cut off for UCLA students than USC students?

User avatar
goden
Posts: 2740
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:52 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby goden » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:48 am

still wrote:contrary to what many TLSers would urge you to believe, the gap between ucla and usc is bigger than say the gap between ucla and georgetown (cough: east coast bias: cough)

unless you count things like GT's rich history, notable alumni, government connection as more important than more tangible things like employment prospects, school funded rate, etc

LOL

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 10179
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 3:24 am

Redfactor wrote:
still wrote:contrary to what many TLSers would urge you to believe, the gap between ucla and usc is bigger than say the gap between ucla and georgetown (cough: east coast bias: cough)

unless you count things like GT's rich history, notable alumni, government connection as more important than more tangible things like employment prospects, school funded rate, etc


No.

User avatar
still
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:14 am

lol as i predicted: *triggered*

i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school

still:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

ucla ~45% fed+BL
GT ~44% fed+BL
USC ~38% fed+BL

ucla also has less school funded rate than GT, higher ATL ranking and higher employment score (bad metrics i know - kind of like ops in baseball)

from the metrics what i said isnt as egregious as some of you make it

of course GT has a higher ceiling for those unicorn jobs than UCLA, more national rep, t14, etc. all that kind of stuff probably matters more when it comes to evaluating a school

still i'd much rather be below median at ucla than GT

Redfactor
Posts: 412
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:59 am

still wrote:lol as i predicted: *triggered*

i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school

still:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

ucla ~45% fed+BL
GT ~44% fed+BL
USC ~38% fed+BL

ucla also has less school funded rate than GT, higher ATL ranking and higher employment score (bad metrics i know - kind of like ops in baseball)

from the metrics what i said isnt as egregious as some of you make it

of course GT has a higher ceiling for those unicorn jobs than UCLA, more national rep, t14, etc. all that kind of stuff probably matters more when it comes to evaluating a school

still i'd much rather be below median at ucla than GT


I don't know if you've just had waaaaaaay too much Kool Aid or you're a troll, but don't spout inane garbage on here backed up by some mouth-breather analysis as if you're right.

UCLA and Georgetown, yes even the deeply flawed GULC, are in different eff'ing leagues.

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 10179
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:10 pm

Redfactor wrote:
still wrote:lol as i predicted: *triggered*

i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school

still:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

ucla ~45% fed+BL
GT ~44% fed+BL
USC ~38% fed+BL

ucla also has less school funded rate than GT, higher ATL ranking and higher employment score (bad metrics i know - kind of like ops in baseball)

from the metrics what i said isnt as egregious as some of you make it

of course GT has a higher ceiling for those unicorn jobs than UCLA, more national rep, t14, etc. all that kind of stuff probably matters more when it comes to evaluating a school

still i'd much rather be below median at ucla than GT


I don't know if you've just had waaaaaaay too much Kool Aid or you're a troll, but don't spout inane garbage on here backed up by some mouth-breather analysis as if you're right.

UCLA and Georgetown, yes even the deeply flawed GULC, are in different eff'ing leagues.


Georgetown is a national school whereas UCLA is a regional one, so in that sense they play in different 'leagues', but one school isn't that much better than the other (and anyone who wants to work in California should definitely go to UCLA). The LOLable party of still's statement was more the notion that UCLA was more distinguishable from USC because of LST numerics than UCLA and Georgetown.

User avatar
still
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:22 pm

Redfactor wrote:
still wrote:lol as i predicted: *triggered*

i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school

still:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

ucla ~45% fed+BL
GT ~44% fed+BL
USC ~38% fed+BL

ucla also has less school funded rate than GT, higher ATL ranking and higher employment score (bad metrics i know - kind of like ops in baseball)

from the metrics what i said isnt as egregious as some of you make it

of course GT has a higher ceiling for those unicorn jobs than UCLA, more national rep, t14, etc. all that kind of stuff probably matters more when it comes to evaluating a school

still i'd much rather be below median at ucla than GT


I don't know if you've just had waaaaaaay too much Kool Aid or you're a troll, but don't spout inane garbage on here backed up by some mouth-breather analysis as if you're right.

UCLA and Georgetown, yes even the deeply flawed GULC, are in different eff'ing leagues.


read the very first lines of my post:

"i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school"


or that UCLA is close to GT


or that UCLA is close to GT


or that UCLA is close to GT


i swear some people just

Redfactor
Posts: 412
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:32 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
still wrote:lol as i predicted: *triggered*

i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school

still:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

ucla ~45% fed+BL
GT ~44% fed+BL
USC ~38% fed+BL

ucla also has less school funded rate than GT, higher ATL ranking and higher employment score (bad metrics i know - kind of like ops in baseball)

from the metrics what i said isnt as egregious as some of you make it

of course GT has a higher ceiling for those unicorn jobs than UCLA, more national rep, t14, etc. all that kind of stuff probably matters more when it comes to evaluating a school

still i'd much rather be below median at ucla than GT


I don't know if you've just had waaaaaaay too much Kool Aid or you're a troll, but don't spout inane garbage on here backed up by some mouth-breather analysis as if you're right.

UCLA and Georgetown, yes even the deeply flawed GULC, are in different eff'ing leagues.


Georgetown is a national school whereas UCLA is a regional one, so in that sense they play in different 'leagues', but one school isn't that much better than the other (and anyone who wants to work in California should definitely go to UCLA). The LOLable party of still's statement was more the notion that UCLA was more distinguishable from USC because of LST numerics than UCLA and Georgetown.


I should walk back my statement a bit, because, at least in the last year, UCLA made a noticeable jump on USC. Whether it's a trend or an anomaly is yet to be seen, and I think for all intents and purposes they're still peer schools, but STILL's argument between USC and UCLA is not as meritless as I initially believed. So, apologies to STILL on that front.

That said, his trolling of GULC is still ridiculous. Even accounting for UCLA's uptick, GULC is still head and shoulders above both USC and UCLA, and it's not an east coast bias.

Comparing the class of 2014 NALP reports, which is the most current direct comparison available because GULC is apparently slow....

GULC had:

- 250 of its 322 students who found firm jobs work for firms with 250+ attorneys.(77.6%)
- 25 out of the 322 went to work for firms that had fewer than 50 attorneys.(6.8%)

UCLA had:

- 98 of its 199 students who found firm jobs work for firms with 250+ attorneys. (49.2%)
- 71 of the 199 went to work for firms that had fewer than 50 attorneys. (35.6%)

It appears that UCLA does a superior job getting students into small-law, which is better than nolaw. But they're not even close in for biglaw after you isolate the segment of the students we actually know are seeking private firm jobs. (Note: UCLA did better in 2015 than 2014 and USC appears to have fared worse, but there remains a large gap between '15 UCLA and '14 GULC.)

For 2014, USC did as good a job or better than UCLA in getting its grads in 250+ firms, and both USC and GULC median, mean, and 25% salaries were superior to UCLA's. USC reported of its 108 students hired as "associates" in firms, they had a 145/160/160, 25/50/75 with a mean of 142.8k. While UCLA didn't publish a similar figure that I could find, the numbers they did publish indicate it's unlikely they matched.

But like I just said, small-law is better than no law and UCLA does have more of its grads employed. And again, UCLA took a step forward while USC took a step back (though still no NALP report for '15 confirming), so make of that what you will. I still feel that they're peer schools and this is just the usual deviation, but at least STILL's argument is colorable.

But make no mistake, GULC is still a tier above UCLA or USC for Biglaw, gov't and public interest.

--------------

And as you mentioned, GULC also has the ability to place people nationally, and at market rate. GULC places in every major legal market, including almost 10% of its class in Cali, where its reported median still obtained market and held a mean of 130k, and this stat includes non-firm jobs. (Though this is a low report rate.)

UCLA sent 10 to DC and 10 to NY. Not percent, total students.

--------------

THAT SAID,

I think UCLA or USC are both excellent options for SoCal, and I would take either at equal money against GULC if I wanted to practice in Cali.

This thread is officially derailed and I apologize for my contribution to that :)

BigZuck
Posts: 11716
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:34 pm

You did say UCLA was close to GULC though

Look, you like your school, that's cool. Just stop being so silly you goose. This is straight up Billyness.

Now for the purposes of this thread, explain how there is a sizable gap between UCLA and USC. You haven't done that yet, and that's what the thread is about.

Redfactor
Posts: 412
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:37 pm

still wrote:
Redfactor wrote:
still wrote:lol as i predicted: *triggered*

i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school

still:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ucla/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/gulc/2015/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/usc/

ucla ~45% fed+BL
GT ~44% fed+BL
USC ~38% fed+BL

ucla also has less school funded rate than GT, higher ATL ranking and higher employment score (bad metrics i know - kind of like ops in baseball)

from the metrics what i said isnt as egregious as some of you make it

of course GT has a higher ceiling for those unicorn jobs than UCLA, more national rep, t14, etc. all that kind of stuff probably matters more when it comes to evaluating a school

still i'd much rather be below median at ucla than GT


I don't know if you've just had waaaaaaay too much Kool Aid or you're a troll, but don't spout inane garbage on here backed up by some mouth-breather analysis as if you're right.

UCLA and Georgetown, yes even the deeply flawed GULC, are in different eff'ing leagues.


read the very first lines of my post:

"i never said UCLA > GT or even UCLA = GT or that UCLA is close to GT
obviously GT is a better school"


or that UCLA is close to GT


or that UCLA is close to GT


or that UCLA is close to GT


i swear some people just



Dude, you don't get it both ways.

You can't say "I never said ___" as a defense and then go on cite a statistic that suggests that UCLA was as strong or stronger than GUCL... then cite ATL rankings which suggest the same thing... and then go on to talk about school funded rates being lower at UCLA than GULC.

You were trolling hard and you know it.

User avatar
still
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:31 pm

meh it was never my intent to troll

i guess its fair to say that the glamour stats (lst reports) show ucla in a more comparable light with GT whereas the advanced metrics (NALP reports) indicate a big gap between the two. i'm not afraid or ashamed to admit that i'm wrong and maybe my post came off as inciting.

ad hominem attacks like digging through my post history and finding out where i go to school and accusing me of homerism, however is off base

im no uptight intellectual snob and i really dgaf about how others perceive my school, despite how some people may interpret my posts.

User avatar
still
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:23 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:40 pm

Redfactor wrote:
Dude, you don't get it both ways.

You can't say "I never said ___" as a defense and then go on cite a statistic that suggests that UCLA was as strong or stronger than GUCL... then cite ATL rankings which suggest the same thing... and then go on to talk about school funded rates being lower at UCLA than GULC.

You were trolling hard and you know it.


my "ucla is closer to GT than usc is to UCLA" post may have been wrong, but i stand by my defense that i never said UCLA was close to GT

i only cited a certain metric to illustrate that perhaps "ucla is closer to GT than usc is to UCLA" (which was wrong). never did i imply that metric was to suggest that UCLA was close to GT

for instance i can cite lebron james' player efficency rating and ft% and then compare it with say boban marjonovic's PER and ft%. according to those metrics in isolation, boban is a comparable or superior player to lebron james. that doesnt mean i automatically think boban is close to lebron james as a player

User avatar
PrezRand
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:31 pm

Re: Is UCLA objectively better than USC?

Postby PrezRand » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:45 am

A lot of you guys misread his comments and definitely made a leap after that regardless of the validity of his comments




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chiclawruby, Yahoo [Bot] and 7 guests