Is GW with no debt a good choice?

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deadpanic
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby deadpanic » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:10 am

jbagelboy wrote:Low to no debt from GW with average firm/local gov't atty goals is a fine route


I agree with this, but OP wants big law, and has basically said if they don't get it, they want to be a DA. It doesn't work like that. The DA's office will hire the true believer that interned for 2 years from American/Catholic/whatever over a median GW kid that struck out from big law. You are not getting a good federal gov't gig after striking out, either.

If it is truly debt-free, I think it is a fine choice. But, a couple things. One, if you are having to pay COL, you are going to easily take on 60k+ worth of debt in DC, easily. Two, if you are not top 25% or patent eligible, I think it is going to be a struggle as someone else pointed out. Once you miss the big law boat at GW, I do not really know what you do other than go be an intern on The Hill for 30k/year. Someone probably has better insight on GW, though.

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poptart123
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby poptart123 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:52 am

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Last edited by poptart123 on Wed May 03, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Pomeranian
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:43 am

poptart123 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Low to no debt from GW with average firm/local gov't atty goals is a fine route


I agree with this, but OP wants big law, and has basically said if they don't get it, they want to be a DA. It doesn't work like that. The DA's office will hire the true believer that interned for 2 years from American/Catholic/whatever over a median GW kid that struck out from big law. You are not getting a good federal gov't gig after striking out, either.

If it is truly debt-free, I think it is a fine choice. But, a couple things. One, if you are having to pay COL, you are going to easily take on 60k+ worth of debt in DC, easily. Two, if you are not top 25% or patent eligible, I think it is going to be a struggle as someone else pointed out. Once you miss the big law boat at GW, I do not really know what you do other than go be an intern on The Hill for 30k/year. Someone probably has better insight on GW, though.


I haven't been to law school yet, but have worked on the Hill. Most attorneys I knew on the Hill hated it unless they were with a prestigious committee or high ranking member. However, many of these positions are much more "who you know" than good grades from law school. Many of these attorneys are from the representative's state and went to school in that state. The average attorney on the Hill in a senator/reps office were generally their because of the perceived prestige and loan forgiveness. Sure they handled, say, military issues for Congressman XYZ, but they still had to pick up constituent calls when the lines got busy. And yeah, starting legislative assistants make about 40-45K a year depending on the office. That's not fun in DC with loans and sky high rent.


You will also compete with Georgetown Law CenTTTer grads for these Congressional positions as well. I actually know a recent GT grad working as a legislative assistant (although he is based at the district office in a high COL city).

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poptart123
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby poptart123 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:52 am

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Last edited by poptart123 on Wed May 03, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tyga
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Tyga » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:11 pm

still wrote:imo 32% biglaw+fc rate is inflated by gw's insanely high proportion of IP prosecution eligible students

assuming youre not a STEM you will be competing for a smaller cachet of biglaw jobs than the numbers suggest

its probably safe to say gw's biglaw+fc rate is actually somewhat lower than peer schools for non STEM students


I have heard about how IP skews their biglaw rate, however, is it really so significant that if you do not have a STEM background (which I do not) you are at a clear disadvantage? Would a student in the top quarter or third who has STEM/is targeting IP law fair much better than someone else with say, a business background, all else equal?

Tyga
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Tyga » Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:13 pm

deadpanic wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Low to no debt from GW with average firm/local gov't atty goals is a fine route


I agree with this, but OP wants big law, and has basically said if they don't get it, they want to be a DA. It doesn't work like that. The DA's office will hire the true believer that interned for 2 years from American/Catholic/whatever over a median GW kid that struck out from big law. You are not getting a good federal gov't gig after striking out, either.

If it is truly debt-free, I think it is a fine choice. But, a couple things. One, if you are having to pay COL, you are going to easily take on 60k+ worth of debt in DC, easily. Two, if you are not top 25% or patent eligible, I think it is going to be a struggle as someone else pointed out. Once you miss the big law boat at GW, I do not really know what you do other than go be an intern on The Hill for 30k/year. Someone probably has better insight on GW, though.


So you need to go into law school targeting either Biglaw or DA? And for the sake of the median argument: if you are near median at GW, how do you think you'd fair if you went in targeting DA?

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deadpanic
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby deadpanic » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:08 pm

Tyga wrote:
deadpanic wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Low to no debt from GW with average firm/local gov't atty goals is a fine route


I agree with this, but OP wants big law, and has basically said if they don't get it, they want to be a DA. It doesn't work like that. The DA's office will hire the true believer that interned for 2 years from American/Catholic/whatever over a median GW kid that struck out from big law. You are not getting a good federal gov't gig after striking out, either.

If it is truly debt-free, I think it is a fine choice. But, a couple things. One, if you are having to pay COL, you are going to easily take on 60k+ worth of debt in DC, easily. Two, if you are not top 25% or patent eligible, I think it is going to be a struggle as someone else pointed out. Once you miss the big law boat at GW, I do not really know what you do other than go be an intern on The Hill for 30k/year. Someone probably has better insight on GW, though.


So you need to go into law school targeting either Biglaw or DA? And for the sake of the median argument: if you are near median at GW, how do you think you'd fair if you went in targeting DA?


I guess maybe I was a bit hyperbolic; you can see how grades turn out and go from there. If your grades are high enough and you land a SA, then you can do that and hope you get an offer. If you are median, you need to immediately target the DA's office both summers if that's what you want to do.

The problem is even then it is not a guarantee. DA office hiring is also very random. They just hire basically when they have an opening to fill because they're budget is pretty low due to $, and it is quite competitive. Good luck.

Redfactor
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Redfactor » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:32 pm

Tyga wrote:
deadpanic wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Low to no debt from GW with average firm/local gov't atty goals is a fine route


I agree with this, but OP wants big law, and has basically said if they don't get it, they want to be a DA. It doesn't work like that. The DA's office will hire the true believer that interned for 2 years from American/Catholic/whatever over a median GW kid that struck out from big law. You are not getting a good federal gov't gig after striking out, either.

If it is truly debt-free, I think it is a fine choice. But, a couple things. One, if you are having to pay COL, you are going to easily take on 60k+ worth of debt in DC, easily. Two, if you are not top 25% or patent eligible, I think it is going to be a struggle as someone else pointed out. Once you miss the big law boat at GW, I do not really know what you do other than go be an intern on The Hill for 30k/year. Someone probably has better insight on GW, though.


So you need to go into law school targeting either Biglaw or DA? And for the sake of the median argument: if you are near median at GW, how do you think you'd fair if you went in targeting DA?


I don't think it's that strict.

If you want the option to do either, then this is the route I suggest:

Do your 1L summer at the DA office you're interested in working at post-graduation and subsequently work the system as the poster said, i.e. volunteer if at all possible during the school year. Establish this route first as it can be very difficult to obtain offers over students from "lesser" schools who have established ties with the office, as noted above.

However, I don't think Biglaw works the same way. My impression was that Biglaw was happy to offer students at OCI who did DA/PD work their 1L summer. A 1L summer position at a USAO was very warmly received.**

So, if you land a Biglaw offer for a 2L SA position at OCI and the firm has a strong offer rate at the end of the summer (which most all do), only at that point abandon the DA path and set sail for Biglaw.

** I suggest you look into hiring practices for the particular USAO if you're considering prosecution because many do not hire students straight out of law school. I have a couple friends who worked at a USAO and it made local DA positions more difficult because they hadn't established ties with the office(s).


Hope this helps and best of luck!

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JCougar
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby JCougar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:43 pm

Tyga wrote:Any insight as to what the expected median outcome is at a school like GW?


Unless you have great softs, prepare to be unemployed.

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postard
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby postard » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:08 pm

Tyga wrote:Is making top 25% of your respective class really as difficult and random as many people on here make it seem?


Yes.

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pancakes3
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby pancakes3 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:16 pm

postard wrote:
Tyga wrote:Is making top 25% of your respective class really as difficult and random as many people on here make it seem?


Yes.


Think back to high school health class where the test was pretty much a formality and everyone pretty much scores between a 90-100. Now curve that. What's the meaningful distinction between a 94 and a 98?

foregetaboutdre
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby foregetaboutdre » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:30 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
postard wrote:
Tyga wrote:Is making top 25% of your respective class really as difficult and random as many people on here make it seem?


Yes.


Think back to high school health class where the test was pretty much a formality and everyone pretty much scores between a 90-100. Now curve that. What's the meaningful distinction between a 94 and a 98?


Too bad there isn't a rep system here. This is one of the best posts I've ever encountered.

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still
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:51 pm

Tyga wrote:
still wrote:imo 32% biglaw+fc rate is inflated by gw's insanely high proportion of IP prosecution eligible students

assuming youre not a STEM you will be competing for a smaller cachet of biglaw jobs than the numbers suggest

its probably safe to say gw's biglaw+fc rate is actually somewhat lower than peer schools for non STEM students


I have heard about how IP skews their biglaw rate, however, is it really so significant that if you do not have a STEM background (which I do not) you are at a clear disadvantage? Would a student in the top quarter or third who has STEM/is targeting IP law fair much better than someone else with say, a business background, all else equal?


i would interpret it to mean that while it seems that being in the top third of the class (to correspond with the 32% BL+FC rate) puts you in a good spot, you actually probable have to be even higher ranked, luckier, or mass mail harder.

this is bc in many cases firms dont really care about the law school grades of alot of students hired for IP work. also, since theres (probably) no correlation between being STEM and getting law school grades, a bunch of the STEM kids that get big law jobs likely have median or below median grades, skewing the percentages. if you read between the lines you can get the picture.

however, GW is a good school - and getting a full ride there definitely makes it a good choice in my opinion

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Pomeranian
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Pomeranian » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:44 pm

still wrote:
Tyga wrote:
still wrote:imo 32% biglaw+fc rate is inflated by gw's insanely high proportion of IP prosecution eligible students

assuming youre not a STEM you will be competing for a smaller cachet of biglaw jobs than the numbers suggest

its probably safe to say gw's biglaw+fc rate is actually somewhat lower than peer schools for non STEM students


I have heard about how IP skews their biglaw rate, however, is it really so significant that if you do not have a STEM background (which I do not) you are at a clear disadvantage? Would a student in the top quarter or third who has STEM/is targeting IP law fair much better than someone else with say, a business background, all else equal?


i would interpret it to mean that while it seems that being in the top third of the class (to correspond with the 32% BL+FC rate) puts you in a good spot, you actually probable have to be even higher ranked, luckier, or mass mail harder.

this is bc in many cases firms dont really care about the law school grades of alot of students hired for IP work. also, since theres (probably) no correlation between being STEM and getting law school grades, a bunch of the STEM kids that get big law jobs likely have median or below median grades, skewing the percentages. if you read between the lines you can get the picture.

however, GW is a good school - and getting a full ride there definitely makes it a good choice in my opinion


Is there a particular reason GW seems to attract a higher percentage of IP background students compared to its peer schools? It's not like they get a boost for IP jobs from having attended GW Law?

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still
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby still » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:55 pm

Pomeranian wrote:
Is there a particular reason GW seems to attract a higher percentage of IP background students compared to its peer schools? It's not like they get a boost for IP jobs from having attended GW Law?


i dont know but if i had to speculate:

1) gw is splitter friendly. many STEMS have deflated gpas with respect to non stems
2) maybe gw strategically targets stems and has lower admittance standards for them?
3) maybe gw offers heftier scholarships to stems?
4) programmatic offerings
5) DC is a good IP market

Tyga
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Tyga » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:17 pm

I appreciate all the insight! I recently spoke with a family friend who is a 2L at GW law and he was preaching the hell out of the school to me, including their employment (all his friends from there have great jobs, internships, etc). He also said a GW law degree is highly respected in D.C. and NYC (said it is looked at almost the same as GULC, which I find very hard to believe). Obviously, I took everything he said with a major grain of salt. Can anybody add some input here?

BigZuck
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:42 pm

Tyga wrote:I appreciate all the insight! I recently spoke with a family friend who is a 2L at GW law and he was preaching the hell out of the school to me, including their employment (all his friends from there have great jobs, internships, etc). He also said a GW law degree is highly respected in D.C. and NYC (said it is looked at almost the same as GULC, which I find very hard to believe). Obviously, I took everything he said with a major grain of salt. Can anybody add some input here?

Maybe because he's a 2L at GW law?

Tyga
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Tyga » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:15 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Tyga wrote:I appreciate all the insight! I recently spoke with a family friend who is a 2L at GW law and he was preaching the hell out of the school to me, including their employment (all his friends from there have great jobs, internships, etc). He also said a GW law degree is highly respected in D.C. and NYC (said it is looked at almost the same as GULC, which I find very hard to believe). Obviously, I took everything he said with a major grain of salt. Can anybody add some input here?

Maybe because he's a 2L at GW law?


Just because he is a student there doesn't mean he is definitely spewing bullshit, but he is obviously exaggerating a bit. Maybe his own experience truly is that fantastic, but I'm seeking info more from the perspective of the average student. I'm mostly wondering about how respected GW is in both D.C. and NYC, because those are the two markets I will be targeting; however, so will the majority of students at H/Y/S and the rest of the T14, which is worrisome.

BigZuck
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby BigZuck » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:31 pm

Tyga wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Tyga wrote:I appreciate all the insight! I recently spoke with a family friend who is a 2L at GW law and he was preaching the hell out of the school to me, including their employment (all his friends from there have great jobs, internships, etc). He also said a GW law degree is highly respected in D.C. and NYC (said it is looked at almost the same as GULC, which I find very hard to believe). Obviously, I took everything he said with a major grain of salt. Can anybody add some input here?

Maybe because he's a 2L at GW law?


Just because he is a student there doesn't mean he is definitely spewing bullshit, but he is obviously exaggerating a bit. Maybe his own experience truly is that fantastic, but I'm seeking info more from the perspective of the average student. I'm mostly wondering about how respected GW is in both D.C. and NYC, because those are the two markets I will be targeting; however, so will the majority of students at H/Y/S and the rest of the T14, which is worrisome.

I trust the GW student(s) who have posted in this thread more than I trust this dude

Tyga
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Re: Is GW with no debt a good choice?

Postby Tyga » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:11 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Tyga wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Tyga wrote:I appreciate all the insight! I recently spoke with a family friend who is a 2L at GW law and he was preaching the hell out of the school to me, including their employment (all his friends from there have great jobs, internships, etc). He also said a GW law degree is highly respected in D.C. and NYC (said it is looked at almost the same as GULC, which I find very hard to believe). Obviously, I took everything he said with a major grain of salt. Can anybody add some input here?

Maybe because he's a 2L at GW law?


Just because he is a student there doesn't mean he is definitely spewing bullshit, but he is obviously exaggerating a bit. Maybe his own experience truly is that fantastic, but I'm seeking info more from the perspective of the average student. I'm mostly wondering about how respected GW is in both D.C. and NYC, because those are the two markets I will be targeting; however, so will the majority of students at H/Y/S and the rest of the T14, which is worrisome.

I trust the GW student(s) who have posted in this thread more than I trust this dude


I am in complete agreement with you. That is the only reason I even brought my conversation with him up in the thread.




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