The Trouble with the T14

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speed_the_loot

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The Trouble with the T14

Postby speed_the_loot » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:43 pm

So looking through a few schools' ABA 509 reports, I've concluded that a substantial number of people are paying sticker to attend a T14. In fact, there is a stark contrast in grant percentages between the T14 and the T20. E.g., 56.5% of G'Town students are paying sticker, whereas only 14.6% of UT students are.

So the T20 are shelling out a lot of financial aid to keep up their LSAT/GPA ranges. And students are putting a premium on attending the T14, which I definitely understand.

But my point is this: unless you're independently wealthy or parents are going to shell out a lot of money for you, do not go to a T14 at sticker, unless its name begins with the letters H, Y, or S. And even then, you need to think long and hard about the decision you're making.

I know you've probably seen a lot of threads and responses on this already, but it bears repeating.
Last edited by speed_the_loot on Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lymenheimer

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby lymenheimer » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:44 pm

Cool thread

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EnderWiggin

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby EnderWiggin » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:49 pm

speed_the_loot wrote: bears repeating.


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4LTsPointingNorth

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:54 pm

GULC statistics aren't necessarily representative of the other T14 schools due to GULC's disproportionately high % of transfers who pay sticker.

That said: thoughts on T14 at sticker being a 10-year risk for a lifelong reward? That is, it might suck repaying debt if you discover BigLaw is intolerable for you, but on the other hand, T14 sticker may prove in the long run to be the best and ballsiest decision you've made that will allow you to achieve your lifelong goals.
Last edited by 4LTsPointingNorth on Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

flawedargument

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby flawedargument » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:55 pm

I vote to rename this thread:

The Trouble With Prospective Students Who Are Not Independently Wealthy And Don't Do Their Research Before Making Important Life Choices.


Not the trouble with the top 14.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby rpupkin » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:59 pm

speed_the_loot wrote:So looking through a few schools' ABA 509 reports, I've concluded that a substantial number of people are paying sticker to attend a T14. In fact, there is a stark contrast in grant percentages between the T14 and the T20. E.g., 56.5% of G'Town students are paying sticker, whereas only 14.6% of UT students are.

I propose renaming this thread: "The trouble with cherry picking unrepresentative examples"
Last edited by rpupkin on Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

speed_the_loot

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby speed_the_loot » Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:59 pm

Won't fit, sorry.

Also, e.g.,

Penn -- 52.1% paying sticker
Columbia -- 52.4%
Virginia -- 56.6%

Not gonna look up every one. But G'Town isn't out of the norm on this.

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lymenheimer

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby lymenheimer » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:05 pm

flawedargument wrote:I vote to rename this thread:

The Trouble With Prospective Students Who Are Not Independently Wealthy And Don't Do Their Research Before Making Important Life Choices.

TLS as a Flat Circle and the Cyclical T14@Sticker Thread

Not the trouble with the top 14.

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4LTsPointingNorth

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:07 pm

speed_the_loot wrote:Won't fit, sorry.

Also, e.g.,

Penn -- 52.1% paying sticker
Columbia -- 52.4%
Virginia -- 56.6%

Not gonna look up every one. But G'Town isn't out of the norm on this.


T14 isn't created equal, and Penn, Columbia and Virginia all have higher likelihoods of ending up in BigLaw than GULC. I'm genuinely interested to see if people have thoughts on the 10-year risk/inconvenience vs. lifetime reward question. Time-framing is very important to the analysis. (See, e.g., Kelman). Big caveat that you can't be wishy-washy between PI and BigLaw for the T14 sticker decision to make sense, as you'll need to determine during law school whether to go down the PAYE or the BigLaw path.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby speed_the_loot » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:16 pm

Try harder, lymenheimer.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby speed_the_loot » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:21 pm

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
speed_the_loot wrote:Won't fit, sorry.

Also, e.g.,

Penn -- 52.1% paying sticker
Columbia -- 52.4%
Virginia -- 56.6%

Not gonna look up every one. But G'Town isn't out of the norm on this.


T14 isn't created equal, and Penn, Columbia and Virginia all have higher likelihoods of ending up in BigLaw than GULC. I'm genuinely interested to see if people have thoughts on the 10-year risk/inconvenience vs. lifetime reward question. Time-framing is very important to the analysis. (See, e.g., Kelman). Big caveat that you can't be wishy-washy between PI and BigLaw for the T14 sticker decision to make sense, as you'll need to determine during law school whether to go down the PAYE or the BigLaw path.


Your point's valid, but the only attempt to actually measure what you're talking about is Simkovic's "Economic Value of a Law Degree," which most people on TLS and scambloggers can't stand for various reasons, good and bad.

I'm opting for something much simpler. I just think most people after graduation, regardless of outcome, would rather not have taken out $250k in loans to go to LS. That's all I'm getting at.

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lymenheimer

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby lymenheimer » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:21 pm

speed_the_loot wrote:Try harder, lymenheimer.


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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:27 pm

speed_the_loot wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
speed_the_loot wrote:Won't fit, sorry.

Also, e.g.,

Penn -- 52.1% paying sticker
Columbia -- 52.4%
Virginia -- 56.6%

Not gonna look up every one. But G'Town isn't out of the norm on this.


T14 isn't created equal, and Penn, Columbia and Virginia all have higher likelihoods of ending up in BigLaw than GULC. I'm genuinely interested to see if people have thoughts on the 10-year risk/inconvenience vs. lifetime reward question. Time-framing is very important to the analysis. (See, e.g., Kelman). Big caveat that you can't be wishy-washy between PI and BigLaw for the T14 sticker decision to make sense, as you'll need to determine during law school whether to go down the PAYE or the BigLaw path.


Your point's valid, but the only attempt to actually measure what you're talking about is Simkovic's "Economic Value of a Law Degree," which most people on TLS and scambloggers can't stand for various reasons, good and bad.

I'm opting for something much simpler. I just think most people after graduation, regardless of outcome, would rather not have taken out $250k in loans to go to LS. That's all I'm getting at.


Yeah but that's ignoring the obvious argument that some $250k investments are worth it for some percentage of people. I haven't read any of the scholarship, including the the article you cite, but I just looked at it briefly. If you're smart enough to be choosing between T14 schools, even at sticker, then you're smart enough to know that citing an article that takes into account outcomes from all JD degree holders is not appropriate or even useful in determining outcomes for T14 degree holders. So that's a good starting point for this thread. Now say more.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby speed_the_loot » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:47 pm

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:Yeah but that's ignoring the obvious argument that some $250k investments are worth it for some percentage of people. I haven't read any of the scholarship, including the the article you cite, but I just looked at it briefly. If you're smart enough to be choosing between T14 schools, even at sticker, then you're smart enough to know that citing an article that takes into account outcomes from all JD degree holders is not appropriate or even useful in determining outcomes for T14 degree holders. So that's a good starting point for this thread. Now say more.


I honestly don't have the time to have this academic discussion with you. If you wanna map out ROI for the T14 only, then go ask Simkovic for the BLS data he used (he's a prof at Seton Hall), filter out all non-T14 students, and run the calculations again.

I'm not ignoring the argument, but "worth it" is a fuzzy term. If you really wanna take out $250k in loans to see if LS was "worth it," go right ahead.

Edit: Also Schlunk, "Mamas Don't Let Your Babies Grow Up to Be Lawyers."
Last edited by speed_the_loot on Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:51 pm

speed_the_loot wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:Yeah but that's ignoring the obvious argument that some $250k investments are worth it for some percentage of people. I haven't read any of the scholarship, including the the article you cite, but I just looked at it briefly. If you're smart enough to be choosing between T14 schools, even at sticker, then you're smart enough to know that citing an article that takes into account outcomes from all JD degree holders is not appropriate or even useful in determining outcomes for T14 degree holders. So that's a good starting point for this thread. Now say more.


I honestly don't have the time to have this academic discussion with you. If you wanna map out ROI for the T14 only, then go ask Simkovic for the BLS data he used (he's a prof at Seton Hall), filter out all non-T14 students, and run the calculations again.

I'm not ignoring the argument, but "worth it" is a fuzzy term. If you really wanna take out $250k in loans to see if LS was "worth it," go right ahead.


If you don't have to time to determine whether it's worth it, then you haven't determined that it's not worth it. So you were just posting for no reason. Perhaps to seek validation for a decision to take some T20 money over a sticker T14 offer. That's fine. I just wanted to make sure I understood what the purpose of this thread was. Now I know. Wish you the best.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby speed_the_loot » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:55 pm

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
speed_the_loot wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:Yeah but that's ignoring the obvious argument that some $250k investments are worth it for some percentage of people. I haven't read any of the scholarship, including the the article you cite, but I just looked at it briefly. If you're smart enough to be choosing between T14 schools, even at sticker, then you're smart enough to know that citing an article that takes into account outcomes from all JD degree holders is not appropriate or even useful in determining outcomes for T14 degree holders. So that's a good starting point for this thread. Now say more.


I honestly don't have the time to have this academic discussion with you. If you wanna map out ROI for the T14 only, then go ask Simkovic for the BLS data he used (he's a prof at Seton Hall), filter out all non-T14 students, and run the calculations again.

I'm not ignoring the argument, but "worth it" is a fuzzy term. If you really wanna take out $250k in loans to see if LS was "worth it," go right ahead.


If you don't have to time to determine whether it's worth it, then you haven't determined that it's not worth it. So you were just posting for no reason. Perhaps to seek validation for a decision to take some T20 money over a sticker T14 offer. That's fine. I just wanted to make sure I understood what the purpose of this thread was. Now I know. Wish you the best.


I'm not deciding b/w law schools, and lol at me "seek[ing] validation for a decision to take some T20 money over a sticker T14 offer." I never told anyone to take T20 money over T14 sticker, just not to do T14 at sticker. Your inferences are your own.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby Hand » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:27 pm

anyone ITT have any provocative propositions they want to share?

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby Hand » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:30 pm

Hand wrote:anyone ITT have any provocative propositions they want to share?


I don't, but I do have a story for y'all

Object Trouve wrote:As a student of history, I have often wondered when George Washington decided to revolt. At exactly what moment did he decide he had enough with the British government, and revolution was his only recourse? While I cannot speak for Washington, I know that my moment of epiphany came in mid-October 2013. It was around this time that [X University] Dining Services abruptly and arbitrarily decided to stop serving Italian heroes for lunch. Overnight, delicious salami, capicola, and roast beef were replaced with the more “health friendly” feta cheese, cucumbers, and lettuce. At first I thought it was just a mistake; surely the salami and ham have simply been misplaced, and my favorite sandwiches would return any day, I reassured myself. However, as the days stretched into weeks, I slowly began to realize that unfortunately, this problem was not going to resolve itself. The feta cheese wraps were here to stay, and the Italian heroes were resigned to the ash heap of history. In order to ameliorate this situation, I needed to act; my only recourse was to lead a revolution.

My campaign began innocently enough. Each day during lunch, I would scribble a note to leave in the dining hall’s suggestion box. While I realized it was unlikely anybody actually checked the dusty old suggestion box, and that I was almost certainly the only student on campus leaving suggestions, I was undeterred. I was determined to do my due diligence, even if that required futilely composing dozens of terse missives imploring for the return of salami and provolone. Whenever the opportunity presented itself, I augmented my written campaign by lobbying the dining hall managers directly. “So when are you guys going to bring back the salami?” I would ask; “You know it wouldn’t be the worst idea if you brought back Italian heroes for lunch,” I would suggest. Most of the time, they would dodge my questions, or pretend they did not understand what I was asking. When I did get a straight answer, it was not encouraging. “We’ve decided to shift our focus towards providing healthier options,” one of the managers told me. At that moment, I realized that alone, I was powerless, a single voice crying out in the wilderness, muted by a cacophony of feta cheese and cucumbers; I needed to raise awareness for my cause. So I took to Twitter, in a vain attempt to harness the powers of social media in order to rally support. I tried getting an article about the crisis published in the school newspaper, but they were not accepting editorials at the moment (or so I was told). Despite these setbacks, I was determined to leave no stone unturned; I was determined to succeed.

However, after months of protesting, pleading, and writing strongly worded suggestions on post-it notes, I had achieved nothing. “Sometimes people just aren’t buying what you’re selling,” my friend told me one day at lunch. Looking around the dining hall that day, it certainly seemed as if I was fighting a losing battle, as hordes of students sat happily eating their feta cheese wraps and roasted vegetable pita sandwiches, oblivious to the fact they were being deprived of delicious Italian cold cuts. Indeed, it seems unlikely that I will ever achieve my goal. I graduated from [X University] in May, and my sources on campus inform me that to this day, the dining hall refuses to serve Italian heroes. Admittedly, the odds are stacked against me, but I will never quit. University Dining Services’ obstinacy has only strengthened my resolve. If it takes me forty years, I will bring Italian heroes back to [X University]. If I become a Supreme Court justice, I will spend the summer recess in [insert name of college town], lobbying for the return of Italian heroes. If I become President of the United States, I will meet with the university’s Board of Trustees in the White House Rose Garden and insist that [X University] serve Italian heroes to its students. Even then, I am not certain I will succeed; I am certain only that I will never give up, and that during my administration, the While House kitchen will be fully stocked with delicious salami, provolone, and spicy mustard.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:34 pm

Hand wrote:
Hand wrote:anyone ITT have any provocative propositions they want to share?


I don't, but I do have a story for y'all

Object Trouve wrote:As a student of history, I have often wondered when George Washington decided to revolt. At exactly what moment did he decide he had enough with the British government, and revolution was his only recourse? While I cannot speak for Washington, I know that my moment of epiphany came in mid-October 2013. It was around this time that [X University] Dining Services abruptly and arbitrarily decided to stop serving Italian heroes for lunch. Overnight, delicious salami, capicola, and roast beef were replaced with the more “health friendly” feta cheese, cucumbers, and lettuce. At first I thought it was just a mistake; surely the salami and ham have simply been misplaced, and my favorite sandwiches would return any day, I reassured myself. However, as the days stretched into weeks, I slowly began to realize that unfortunately, this problem was not going to resolve itself. The feta cheese wraps were here to stay, and the Italian heroes were resigned to the ash heap of history. In order to ameliorate this situation, I needed to act; my only recourse was to lead a revolution.

My campaign began innocently enough. Each day during lunch, I would scribble a note to leave in the dining hall’s suggestion box. While I realized it was unlikely anybody actually checked the dusty old suggestion box, and that I was almost certainly the only student on campus leaving suggestions, I was undeterred. I was determined to do my due diligence, even if that required futilely composing dozens of terse missives imploring for the return of salami and provolone. Whenever the opportunity presented itself, I augmented my written campaign by lobbying the dining hall managers directly. “So when are you guys going to bring back the salami?” I would ask; “You know it wouldn’t be the worst idea if you brought back Italian heroes for lunch,” I would suggest. Most of the time, they would dodge my questions, or pretend they did not understand what I was asking. When I did get a straight answer, it was not encouraging. “We’ve decided to shift our focus towards providing healthier options,” one of the managers told me. At that moment, I realized that alone, I was powerless, a single voice crying out in the wilderness, muted by a cacophony of feta cheese and cucumbers; I needed to raise awareness for my cause. So I took to Twitter, in a vain attempt to harness the powers of social media in order to rally support. I tried getting an article about the crisis published in the school newspaper, but they were not accepting editorials at the moment (or so I was told). Despite these setbacks, I was determined to leave no stone unturned; I was determined to succeed.

However, after months of protesting, pleading, and writing strongly worded suggestions on post-it notes, I had achieved nothing. “Sometimes people just aren’t buying what you’re selling,” my friend told me one day at lunch. Looking around the dining hall that day, it certainly seemed as if I was fighting a losing battle, as hordes of students sat happily eating their feta cheese wraps and roasted vegetable pita sandwiches, oblivious to the fact they were being deprived of delicious Italian cold cuts. Indeed, it seems unlikely that I will ever achieve my goal. I graduated from [X University] in May, and my sources on campus inform me that to this day, the dining hall refuses to serve Italian heroes. Admittedly, the odds are stacked against me, but I will never quit. University Dining Services’ obstinacy has only strengthened my resolve. If it takes me forty years, I will bring Italian heroes back to [X University]. If I become a Supreme Court justice, I will spend the summer recess in [insert name of college town], lobbying for the return of Italian heroes. If I become President of the United States, I will meet with the university’s Board of Trustees in the White House Rose Garden and insist that [X University] serve Italian heroes to its students. Even then, I am not certain I will succeed; I am certain only that I will never give up, and that during my administration, the While House kitchen will be fully stocked with delicious salami, provolone, and spicy mustard.


May not be the hero this thread was looking for but certainly the one it needed.

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4LTsPointingNorth

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:36 pm

Hand wrote:anyone ITT have any provocative propositions they want to share?


My original question: could it be the case that the regret-filled T14 junior/midlevel associates that have influenced this board over the years simply weren't far along enough in their careers to realize the full ROI of T14 at sticker? I.e., it was worth it all along, and we were just witnessing growing pains? I think this is both feasible and likely for a greater than median number of outcomes.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby rpupkin » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:36 pm

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:May not be the hero this thread was looking for but certainly the one it needed.

I read the first sentence but stopped, as George Washington is neither a T14 nor a T20 school, and thus not germane to OP's topic.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby pancakes3 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:38 pm

speed_the_loot wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
speed_the_loot wrote:
4LTsPointingNorth wrote:Yeah but that's ignoring the obvious argument that some $250k investments are worth it for some percentage of people. I haven't read any of the scholarship, including the the article you cite, but I just looked at it briefly. If you're smart enough to be choosing between T14 schools, even at sticker, then you're smart enough to know that citing an article that takes into account outcomes from all JD degree holders is not appropriate or even useful in determining outcomes for T14 degree holders. So that's a good starting point for this thread. Now say more.


I honestly don't have the time to have this academic discussion with you. If you wanna map out ROI for the T14 only, then go ask Simkovic for the BLS data he used (he's a prof at Seton Hall), filter out all non-T14 students, and run the calculations again.

I'm not ignoring the argument, but "worth it" is a fuzzy term. If you really wanna take out $250k in loans to see if LS was "worth it," go right ahead.


If you don't have to time to determine whether it's worth it, then you haven't determined that it's not worth it. So you were just posting for no reason. Perhaps to seek validation for a decision to take some T20 money over a sticker T14 offer. That's fine. I just wanted to make sure I understood what the purpose of this thread was. Now I know. Wish you the best.


I'm not deciding b/w law schools, and lol at me "seek[ing] validation for a decision to take some T20 money over a sticker T14 offer." I never told anyone to take T20 money over T14 sticker, just not to do T14 at sticker. Your inferences are your own.


well hopefully you're a 0L because it'd just be sad if you were poring through 509 reports and not a 0L.

also, you're not positing anything groundbreaking or controversial. people are antagonizing you because they're bored and they think that if you think your revelation is topic-worthy then by extension you're an idiot/easy target.

eta: i check your mom's dusty old suggestion box on the regs

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby Barack O'Drama » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:38 pm

Hand wrote:
Hand wrote:anyone ITT have any provocative propositions they want to share?


I don't, but I do have a story for y'all

Object Trouve wrote:As a student of history, I have often wondered when George Washington decided to revolt. At exactly what moment did he decide he had enough with the British government, and revolution was his only recourse? While I cannot speak for Washington, I know that my moment of epiphany came in mid-October 2013. It was around this time that [X University] Dining Services abruptly and arbitrarily decided to stop serving Italian heroes for lunch. Overnight, delicious salami, capicola, and roast beef were replaced with the more “health friendly” feta cheese, cucumbers, and lettuce. At first I thought it was just a mistake; surely the salami and ham have simply been misplaced, and my favorite sandwiches would return any day, I reassured myself. However, as the days stretched into weeks, I slowly began to realize that unfortunately, this problem was not going to resolve itself. The feta cheese wraps were here to stay, and the Italian heroes were resigned to the ash heap of history. In order to ameliorate this situation, I needed to act; my only recourse was to lead a revolution.

My campaign began innocently enough. Each day during lunch, I would scribble a note to leave in the dining hall’s suggestion box. While I realized it was unlikely anybody actually checked the dusty old suggestion box, and that I was almost certainly the only student on campus leaving suggestions, I was undeterred. I was determined to do my due diligence, even if that required futilely composing dozens of terse missives imploring for the return of salami and provolone. Whenever the opportunity presented itself, I augmented my written campaign by lobbying the dining hall managers directly. “So when are you guys going to bring back the salami?” I would ask; “You know it wouldn’t be the worst idea if you brought back Italian heroes for lunch,” I would suggest. Most of the time, they would dodge my questions, or pretend they did not understand what I was asking. When I did get a straight answer, it was not encouraging. “We’ve decided to shift our focus towards providing healthier options,” one of the managers told me. At that moment, I realized that alone, I was powerless, a single voice crying out in the wilderness, muted by a cacophony of feta cheese and cucumbers; I needed to raise awareness for my cause. So I took to Twitter, in a vain attempt to harness the powers of social media in order to rally support. I tried getting an article about the crisis published in the school newspaper, but they were not accepting editorials at the moment (or so I was told). Despite these setbacks, I was determined to leave no stone unturned; I was determined to succeed.

Bravo! :)
However, after months of protesting, pleading, and writing strongly worded suggestions on post-it notes, I had achieved nothing. “Sometimes people just aren’t buying what you’re selling,” my friend told me one day at lunch. Looking around the dining hall that day, it certainly seemed as if I was fighting a losing battle, as hordes of students sat happily eating their feta cheese wraps and roasted vegetable pita sandwiches, oblivious to the fact they were being deprived of delicious Italian cold cuts. Indeed, it seems unlikely that I will ever achieve my goal. I graduated from [X University] in May, and my sources on campus inform me that to this day, the dining hall refuses to serve Italian heroes. Admittedly, the odds are stacked against me, but I will never quit. University Dining Services’ obstinacy has only strengthened my resolve. If it takes me forty years, I will bring Italian heroes back to [X University]. If I become a Supreme Court justice, I will spend the summer recess in [insert name of college town], lobbying for the return of Italian heroes. If I become President of the United States, I will meet with the university’s Board of Trustees in the White House Rose Garden and insist that [X University] serve Italian heroes to its students. Even then, I am not certain I will succeed; I am certain only that I will never give up, and that during my administration, the While House kitchen will be fully stocked with delicious salami, provolone, and spicy mustard.
Last edited by Barack O'Drama on Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby rpupkin » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:38 pm

4LTsPointingNorth wrote:
Hand wrote:anyone ITT have any provocative propositions they want to share?


My original question: could it be the case that the regret-filled T14 junior/midlevel associates that have influenced this board over the years simply weren't far along enough in their careers to realize the full ROI of T14 at sticker? I.e., it was worth it all along, and we were just witnessing growing pains? I think this is both feasible and likely for a greater than median number of outcomes.

I'm sorry....on what do you base this "greater than median number of outcomes" estimate?

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Re: The Trouble with the T14

Postby 4LTsPointingNorth » Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:44 pm

Really just threw that in there to provoke disagreement. My whole premise is flawed because law school debt outcomes have grown so quickly that there probably simply isn't responsive data in existence for lawyers more than 10-15 years out of law school. So my whole argument is really more a call for speculation as to future outcome trends rather than for a description of past trends, which likely don't exist in meaningful numbers. That is to say, I'm just trying to add a new dish to the age-old T14 at sticker debate rather than reheat the leftovers.



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