ATL 2016 Rankings are Out: Discuss Forum

[brinicolec]

So, out of curiosity, between USNWR and this, which rankings do you all think are better?

[dhbiv]

.

[RedPurpleBlue]

Honestly, I think this list, while not perfect, is pretty decent (and much better than USNWR/the TLS hivemind internal rankings).

Law school rankings should have 1) ABA Bar Passage Rate 2) Quality Placement (decent paying jobs, bar passage/jd advantage LTFT) and 3) cost as the three most important factors, because those are the three most important factors when choosing a law school for the vast majority of people. Worrying about what school lands you big law or some Art III clerkship is a problem for the privileged and those with ultra high test scores and GPA s (aka not the vast majority of people). However, to not make the rankings useless for those high-achievers, the ranking should definitely have a decent percentage of weight that reflects big firm placement, because it can help you pay off your debt, and Art III placement, because it does matter even if for only a select few, along with prestige. That's why I think the ATL formula is very useful. 85% of the ATL formula is based on quality employment/cost factors (includes BL placement), while 15% is based on perceptual factors (aka prestige) and clerkships. Meanwhile, the USNWR gives 40% to prestige factors (peer/lawyer assessment), 25% through incoming statistics (who cares, we should be measuring by bar passage and employment), 15% resources (which I am ambivalent about at best), and ONLY 20% on actual placement. I rather take my rankings, as an average Joe, from a ranking list that worries about my employment and ability to pay off debt than one that worries about telling me which schools are the shiniest golden stars to validate my life achievements.

I'm not saying the ATL rankings are perfect or that I even agree with a lot of the placements, but USNWR is utter shit for the vast majority of people.

[Hikikomorist]

Including cost is incredibly dumb, because everyone has personalized information going in.

[cavalier1138]

Honestly, I think this list, while not perfect, is pretty decent (and much better than USNWR/the TLS hivemind internal rankings).

Law school rankings should have 1) ABA Bar Passage Rate 2) Quality Placement (decent paying jobs, bar passage/jd advantage LTFT) and 3) cost as the three most important factors, because those are the three most important factors when choosing a law school for the vast majority of people. Worrying about what school lands you big law or some Art III clerkship is a problem for the privileged and those with ultra high test scores and GPA s (aka not the vast majority of people). However, to not make the rankings useless for those high-achievers, the ranking should definitely have a decent percentage of weight that reflects big firm placement, because it can help you pay off your debt, and Art III placement, because it does matter even if for only a select few, along with prestige. That's why I think the ATL formula is very useful. 85% of the ATL formula is based on quality employment/cost factors (includes BL placement), while 15% is based on perceptual factors (aka prestige) and clerkships. Meanwhile, the USNWR gives 40% to prestige factors (peer/lawyer assessment), 25% through incoming statistics (who cares, we should be measuring by bar passage and employment), 15% resources (which I am ambivalent about at best), and ONLY 20% on actual placement. I rather take my rankings, as an average Joe, from a ranking list that worries about my employment and ability to pay off debt than one that worries about telling me which schools are the shiniest golden stars to validate my life achievements.

I'm not saying the ATL rankings are perfect or that I even agree with a lot of the placements, but USNWR is utter shit for the vast majority of people.

How is USNWR shit for the "vast majority"? Once you control for region outside of the T14, the rankings are pretty damn accurate.

And just to echo an above poster, "cost" is a variable factor that cannot be factored into rank in any substantive, meaningful way.

[jbagelboy]

Honestly, I think this list, while not perfect, is pretty decent (and much better than USNWR/the TLS hivemind internal rankings).

Law school rankings should have 1) ABA Bar Passage Rate 2) Quality Placement (decent paying jobs, bar passage/jd advantage LTFT) and 3) cost as the three most important factors, because those are the three most important factors when choosing a law school for the vast majority of people. Worrying about what school lands you big law or some Art III clerkship is a problem for the privileged and those with ultra high test scores and GPA s (aka not the vast majority of people). However, to not make the rankings useless for those high-achievers, the ranking should definitely have a decent percentage of weight that reflects big firm placement, because it can help you pay off your debt, and Art III placement, because it does matter even if for only a select few, along with prestige. That's why I think the ATL formula is very useful. 85% of the ATL formula is based on quality employment/cost factors (includes BL placement), while 15% is based on perceptual factors (aka prestige) and clerkships. Meanwhile, the USNWR gives 40% to prestige factors (peer/lawyer assessment), 25% through incoming statistics (who cares, we should be measuring by bar passage and employment), 15% resources (which I am ambivalent about at best), and ONLY 20% on actual placement. I rather take my rankings, as an average Joe, from a ranking list that worries about my employment and ability to pay off debt than one that worries about telling me which schools are the shiniest golden stars to validate my life achievements.

I'm not saying the ATL rankings are perfect or that I even agree with a lot of the placements, but USNWR is utter shit for the vast majority of people.

How is USNWR shit for the "vast majority"? Once you control for region outside of the T14, the rankings are pretty damn accurate.

And just to echo an above poster, "cost" is a variable factor that cannot be factored into rank in any substantive, meaningful way.

Eh, USNWR is utter shit. ATL is clearly worse, but US news is fucking awful. On what basis are you saying it's 'accurate'? That seems at best self-reinforcing. Likely you are justifying it by saying it conforms to your general understanding of how law schools stack up against each other, an understanding acquired by years of reviewing US news.

A line by line comparison of US News to employment outcomes is not favorable. And US News is silliest in many ways among the T14; as though 1-2 spots makes any difference, but it becomes this every-changing golden rule.

[cavalier1138]

Eh, USNWR is utter shit. ATL is clearly worse, but US news is fucking awful. On what basis are you saying it's 'accurate'? That seems at best self-reinforcing. Likely you are justifying it by saying it conforms to your general understanding of how law schools stack up against each other, an understanding acquired by years of reviewing US news.

A line by line comparison of US News to employment outcomes is not favorable. And US News is silliest in many ways among the T14; as though 1-2 spots makes any difference, but it becomes this every-changing golden rule.

A line-by-line comparison doesn't do much, no. But when you control for region, the rankings are generally fairly accurate. So if you ignore the actual number rank of all the schools in Texas (for instance) and just look at how they rank relative to one another, USNWR gives a decent snapshot of that. And yes, sometimes the weird leapfrogging games in the T14 don't make sense, but the actual T14 distinction comes from the rankings in the first place.

But yes, it is somewhat self-reinforcing because that's just the nature of popular school ranking charts. I didn't say they were perfect, but after all the bitching about how they care too much about test scores, etc., people still rely on them because there isn't a better system.

[brinicolec]

Eh, USNWR is utter shit. ATL is clearly worse, but US news is fucking awful. On what basis are you saying it's 'accurate'? That seems at best self-reinforcing. Likely you are justifying it by saying it conforms to your general understanding of how law schools stack up against each other, an understanding acquired by years of reviewing US news.

A line by line comparison of US News to employment outcomes is not favorable. And US News is silliest in many ways among the T14; as though 1-2 spots makes any difference, but it becomes this every-changing golden rule.

A line-by-line comparison doesn't do much, no. But when you control for region, the rankings are generally fairly accurate. So if you ignore the actual number rank of all the schools in Texas (for instance) and just look at how they rank relative to one another, USNWR gives a decent snapshot of that. And yes, sometimes the weird leapfrogging games in the T14 don't make sense, but the actual T14 distinction comes from the rankings in the first place.

But yes, it is somewhat self-reinforcing because that's just the nature of popular school ranking charts. I didn't say they were perfect, but after all the bitching about how they care too much about test scores, etc., people still rely on them because there isn't a better system.

Plus, can't really argue with the employment ratings for T14s. Although some schools, like Georgetown, kind of confuse me in that regard. lol.