Sticker Price at Berkeley

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri May 13, 2016 3:31 pm

Yeah more than anything I was amazed at the IRS dude's comment that you won't miss the money if you end up in biglaw.

abl
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby abl » Fri May 13, 2016 5:24 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:But moreover the whole discourse on "regret" when it comes to taking on student loans is misleading and sort of disingenuous due to choice supportive bias and cognitive dissonance (which is deeply neurally connected to the negative emotional response of regret). So no shit actual law students aren't often regretting their choice to attend a top school.


Absolutely: there's good reason to distrust what both HYS students say about sticker and what students with scholarships not at HYS say about sticker. My point was really just that the often-repeated refrain on this site that the "[o]nly people who say [sticker's] not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before" is flat-out wrong: my educated guess is that somewhere between 'many' and 'a majority of' recently graduated HYS students would say that sticker at HYS is worth it. Certainly, the number is greater than zero.

i've worked exclusively with top of the class hys kids the past two years (and connected socially with many more), and i disagree with your point that there are a substantially higher number of "lucrative unicorn law jobs" available to those students (absent possibly academia for some yalies, etc).

most of them either work at firms, government, or PI like other grads. they worry about their loan balances like other grads, they just generally have much higher loan balances than their similarly credentialed peers who went to law school on scholarships. in fact, as with other grads, the ones who get to avoid biglaw and do fun gov/pi gigs are often the ones who come from serious family money. the middle class hys kids i know more often than not slog it out in biglaw to rack up some cash just like everyone else.

that said, i'm sure the hys lrap programs can soften the blow somewhat, but if a yalie kid ends up in biglaw like every other t14 grad, 300k debt is still terrible. biglaw is still terrible.


Erm, I don't see how you working with HYS grads gives you much insight into how available unicorn positions are to those grads. Unless, of course, your job is a unicorn position, in which case the fact that you seem to be working "exclusively" with HYS grads seems to back up my assertion that such jobs are more available to HYS grads. If your job is not, well, it sounds like you're working with the more unlucky (or less creative) of the HYS grads. I never claimed that all HYS grads work in unicorn positions or that no non-HYS grads get those jobs. Nor have I ever claimed that all or even most HYS grads shoot for these positions (although I think I've been consistent in asserting that I think more should.) My point is just that there are--I think pretty undeniably--a much higher percentage of the HYS class (especially Y and probably S) that ends up in the rare super-desirable law jobs than, say, the Michigan class. I'd bet that if you look at what the Yale class of, say, 2012 is doing now, you'd find far more grads in interesting and semi-lucrative non-biglaw positions than you would at a school like Cornell. And this could explain why I think so many HYS grads are happy with their decision to attend HYS at sticker.*

*And you're wrong about what middle class HYS grads do. At least at my HYS, it felt like the kids coming from the most money were actually the most likely to end up in biglaw, and those with the least were the most likely to end up in PI. This might not be standard across HYS, and may not be consistent from even year-to-year at each of HYS. And my observations (which are undoubtedly far more supported than yours, if you didn't go to HYS) may not even be perfectly representative of my entire class. But regardless, you definitely can't dismiss the HYS-->unicorn job route as being only available to folks with pre-law $$. It's not.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby bruinfan10 » Fri May 13, 2016 6:03 pm

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Last edited by bruinfan10 on Mon May 16, 2016 12:31 pm, edited 9 times in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 13, 2016 6:05 pm

Thread is starting to hit its stride

krads153
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby krads153 » Fri May 13, 2016 6:29 pm

lol 80% of PI attorneys I know are trust fund/rich families...that's why they do PI...parents subsidize their rent, etc.

abl
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby abl » Mon May 16, 2016 11:38 am

bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:But moreover the whole discourse on "regret" when it comes to taking on student loans is misleading and sort of disingenuous due to choice supportive bias and cognitive dissonance (which is deeply neurally connected to the negative emotional response of regret). So no shit actual law students aren't often regretting their choice to attend a top school.


Absolutely: there's good reason to distrust what both HYS students say about sticker and what students with scholarships not at HYS say about sticker. My point was really just that the often-repeated refrain on this site that the "[o]nly people who say [sticker's] not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before" is flat-out wrong: my educated guess is that somewhere between 'many' and 'a majority of' recently graduated HYS students would say that sticker at HYS is worth it. Certainly, the number is greater than zero.

i've worked exclusively with top of the class hys kids the past two years (and connected socially with many more), and i disagree with your point that there are a substantially higher number of "lucrative unicorn law jobs" available to those students (absent possibly academia for some yalies, etc).

most of them either work at firms, government, or PI like other grads. they worry about their loan balances like other grads, they just generally have much higher loan balances than their similarly credentialed peers who went to law school on scholarships. in fact, as with other grads, the ones who get to avoid biglaw and do fun gov/pi gigs are often the ones who come from serious family money. the middle class hys kids i know more often than not slog it out in biglaw to rack up some cash just like everyone else.

that said, i'm sure the hys lrap programs can soften the blow somewhat, but if a yalie kid ends up in biglaw like every other t14 grad, 300k debt is still terrible. biglaw is still terrible.


Erm, I don't see how you working with HYS grads gives you much insight into how available unicorn positions are to those grads. Unless, of course, your job is a unicorn position, in which case the fact that you seem to be working "exclusively" with HYS grads seems to back up my assertion that such jobs are more available to HYS grads. If your job is not, well, it sounds like you're working with the more unlucky (or less creative) of the HYS grads. I never claimed that all HYS grads work in unicorn positions or that no non-HYS grads get those jobs. Nor have I ever claimed that all or even most HYS grads shoot for these positions (although I think I've been consistent in asserting that I think more should.) My point is just that there are--I think pretty undeniably--a much higher percentage of the HYS class (especially Y and probably S) that ends up in the rare super-desirable law jobs than, say, the Michigan class. I'd bet that if you look at what the Yale class of, say, 2012 is doing now, you'd find far more grads in interesting and semi-lucrative non-biglaw positions than you would at a school like Cornell. And this could explain why I think so many HYS grads are happy with their decision to attend HYS at sticker.*

*And you're wrong about what middle class HYS grads do. At least at my HYS, it felt like the kids coming from the most money were actually the most likely to end up in biglaw, and those with the least were the most likely to end up in PI. This might not be standard across HYS, and may not be consistent from even year-to-year at each of HYS. And my observations (which are undoubtedly far more supported than yours, if you didn't go to HYS) may not even be perfectly representative of my entire class. But regardless, you definitely can't dismiss the HYS-->unicorn job route as being only available to folks with pre-law $$. It's not.

i'm finishing my second clerkship. all my co-clerks over both years had done incredibly well at one of hys, and we all updated each other on our job searches. i also socialized across chambers with a bunch more hys grads who also shared their job search details, and i've become acquainted with over a dozen other chambers alums from each clerkship who are now in practice post-hys. that informs my comment above.

that said, maybe you were lights out at your hys-school (i'm sure you had a great lsat score and you're very very smart), maybe you had the job options that my co-clerks had, and maybe you know about positions that those hys overachievers looking for jobs out of strong clerkships don't know about. but odds are you don't and you're making stuff up.


Circle back with your co-clerks in 2-3 years and ask them what the most interesting jobs their classmates are doing. I think you'll be pretty surprised.

abl
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby abl » Mon May 16, 2016 12:21 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:But moreover the whole discourse on "regret" when it comes to taking on student loans is misleading and sort of disingenuous due to choice supportive bias and cognitive dissonance (which is deeply neurally connected to the negative emotional response of regret). So no shit actual law students aren't often regretting their choice to attend a top school.


Absolutely: there's good reason to distrust what both HYS students say about sticker and what students with scholarships not at HYS say about sticker. My point was really just that the often-repeated refrain on this site that the "[o]nly people who say [sticker's] not that bad are 0Ls and maybe law students who have never worked and paid off loans before" is flat-out wrong: my educated guess is that somewhere between 'many' and 'a majority of' recently graduated HYS students would say that sticker at HYS is worth it. Certainly, the number is greater than zero.

i've worked exclusively with top of the class hys kids the past two years (and connected socially with many more), and i disagree with your point that there are a substantially higher number of "lucrative unicorn law jobs" available to those students (absent possibly academia for some yalies, etc).

most of them either work at firms, government, or PI like other grads. they worry about their loan balances like other grads, they just generally have much higher loan balances than their similarly credentialed peers who went to law school on scholarships. in fact, as with other grads, the ones who get to avoid biglaw and do fun gov/pi gigs are often the ones who come from serious family money. the middle class hys kids i know more often than not slog it out in biglaw to rack up some cash just like everyone else.

that said, i'm sure the hys lrap programs can soften the blow somewhat, but if a yalie kid ends up in biglaw like every other t14 grad, 300k debt is still terrible. biglaw is still terrible.


Erm, I don't see how you working with HYS grads gives you much insight into how available unicorn positions are to those grads. Unless, of course, your job is a unicorn position, in which case the fact that you seem to be working "exclusively" with HYS grads seems to back up my assertion that such jobs are more available to HYS grads. If your job is not, well, it sounds like you're working with the more unlucky (or less creative) of the HYS grads. I never claimed that all HYS grads work in unicorn positions or that no non-HYS grads get those jobs. Nor have I ever claimed that all or even most HYS grads shoot for these positions (although I think I've been consistent in asserting that I think more should.) My point is just that there are--I think pretty undeniably--a much higher percentage of the HYS class (especially Y and probably S) that ends up in the rare super-desirable law jobs than, say, the Michigan class. I'd bet that if you look at what the Yale class of, say, 2012 is doing now, you'd find far more grads in interesting and semi-lucrative non-biglaw positions than you would at a school like Cornell. And this could explain why I think so many HYS grads are happy with their decision to attend HYS at sticker.*

*And you're wrong about what middle class HYS grads do. At least at my HYS, it felt like the kids coming from the most money were actually the most likely to end up in biglaw, and those with the least were the most likely to end up in PI. This might not be standard across HYS, and may not be consistent from even year-to-year at each of HYS. And my observations (which are undoubtedly far more supported than yours, if you didn't go to HYS) may not even be perfectly representative of my entire class. But regardless, you definitely can't dismiss the HYS-->unicorn job route as being only available to folks with pre-law $$. It's not.

i'm finishing my second clerkship. all my co-clerks over both years had done incredibly well at one of hys, and we all updated each other on our job searches. i also socialized across chambers with a bunch more hys grads who also shared their job search details, and i've become acquainted with over a dozen other chambers alums from each clerkship who are now in practice post-hys. that informs my comment above.

that said, maybe you were lights out at your hys-school (i'm sure you had a great lsat score and you're very very smart), maybe you had the job options that my co-clerks had, and maybe you know about positions that those hys overachievers looking for jobs out of strong clerkships don't know about. but odds are you don't and you're making stuff up.


Also, that's a pretty self-selected group. Certain judges will feed mostly into biglaw, mostly into AUSA positions, mostly into academia, etc. The six or so HYS alums you know well from clerking are almost certainly not representative of HYS (both because they had to do better than average to get to the clerkship, but also because they chose not just your particular judge but to clerk at all). Similarly, the idea that the dozen or so clerks in your district/circuit who you've gotten to know on some level give you any sort of real sense of what the job search looks like across the HYS spectrum is obviously silly. (As is the idea that you having gotten to know a dozen or so HYS alums gives you a perspective on the broad spectrum of HYS job searching that is superior to that gained by, you know, attending HYS.) I think there are probably a dozen or so clerks in the districts/circuits in which I clerked who would say they "got to know me," and I probably shared some aspects of my job search with most of them--if anything, I was on the substantially forthcoming side of things with job search. I'd say that only 1-2 of these acquaintance/friends, at the very most, had a half-decent sense of what sort of jobs I was evaluating or what my options really were, though. People tend to keep these things pretty close to the vest, even when they're seemingly sharing pretty freely. The only people who I shared pretty openly with were people who I suspected were following a similar job search path to me. And for everyone else, the sorts of jobs I was least likely to talk about were the unicorn-type positions we're discussing here. (I did a lot of joining in the general angst about how to find a rewarding practice group at a "better than the rest" biglaw place while more quietly targeting some hyper-competitive or just weirder one-off positions that I was much more optimistic about.)

Regardless, I bet that when everything shakes out, 1-2 of the "dozen or so" HYS alums across other chambers who you've met will end up with unicorn-ish jobs. It's a small enough sample, though, that who knows. Just about all of my HYS friends, who I don't think were academically exceptional (they're exceptional in other ways!), have ended up in positions giving them interesting substantive work and a six-figure paycheck--although, again, I think that's a small sample size and not perfectly representative.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon May 16, 2016 12:26 pm

abl wrote:Also, that's a pretty self-selected group. Certain judges will feed mostly into biglaw, mostly into AUSA positions, mostly into academia, etc. The six or so HYS alums you know well from clerking are almost certainly not representative of HYS (both because they had to do better than average to get to the clerkship, but also because they chose not just your particular judge but to clerk at all). Similarly, the idea that the dozen or so clerks in your district/circuit who you've gotten to know on some level give you any sort of real sense of what the job search looks like across the HYS spectrum is obviously silly. (As is the idea that you having gotten to know a dozen or so HYS alums gives you a perspective on the broad spectrum of HYS job searching that is superior to that gained by, you know, attending HYS.) I think there are probably a dozen or so clerks in the districts/circuits in which I clerked who would say they "got to know me," and I probably shared some aspects of my job search with most of them--if anything, I was on the substantially forthcoming side of things with job search. I'd say that only 1-2 of these acquaintance/friends, at the very most, had a half-decent sense of what sort of jobs I was evaluating or what my options really were, though. People tend to keep these things pretty close to the vest, even when they're seemingly sharing pretty freely. The only people who I shared pretty openly with were people who I suspected were following a similar job search path to me. And for everyone else, the sorts of jobs I was least likely to talk about were the unicorn-type positions we're discussing here. (I did a lot of joining in the general angst about how to find a rewarding practice group at a "better than the rest" biglaw place while more quietly targeting some hyper-competitive or just weirder one-off positions that I was much more optimistic about.)

Regardless, I bet that when everything shakes out, 1-2 of the "dozen or so" HYS alums across other chambers who you've met will end up with unicorn-ish jobs. It's a small enough sample, though, that who knows. Just about all of my HYS friends, who I don't think were academically exceptional (they're exceptional in other ways!), have ended up in positions giving them interesting substantive work and a six-figure paycheck--although, again, I think that's a small sample size and not perfectly representative.

Fair enough. But given where the 10+ HYS/chambers alums (including three SCOTUS clerks) in my immediate social circle have worked/are working, I stand by my assertion that they generally end up in the typical high end legal jobs discussed here (so it's not necessary to read tea leaves on where people are applying). My point is that these kids had the best legal credentials possible out of any school, and they work for firms or government like everyone else. Nobody has become general counsel to the skull and bones society or special adviser to the grand master of the free masons.

You've been vague about these predominantly HYS unicorn positions for which you applied back in the day (or for which your friends applied), but in my experience good outcomes for both HYS kids and other T14 kids can range from DOJ civil rights to strong public defender's/us attorneys' offices to ACLU positions to elite lit boutiques like W&C or KVN. Many of those positions pay such low salaries that hys folks who aren't independently wealthy and who may or may not have families to support cannot take them, and instead those folks head to firms like the rest of us. If that's your outcome from HYS, I suggest that 300k debt wasn't worth it over a big scholarship elsewhere, no matter how magical LIPP is.

ps: abl, i think i confused you with another poster (some hys dude who makes fun of "poors" all the time or something), you sound way more rational than that guy. the bottom line for me is that i think law school has become insanely overpriced, and there are no legal jobs (aside from scotus clerk/250k signing bonus at a firm/academia) that can justify 300k of debt. but i'm sure your average hys kid has more/better options than your average duke kid. on that we can agree.

abl
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby abl » Mon May 16, 2016 1:47 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
abl wrote:Also, that's a pretty self-selected group. Certain judges will feed mostly into biglaw, mostly into AUSA positions, mostly into academia, etc. The six or so HYS alums you know well from clerking are almost certainly not representative of HYS (both because they had to do better than average to get to the clerkship, but also because they chose not just your particular judge but to clerk at all). Similarly, the idea that the dozen or so clerks in your district/circuit who you've gotten to know on some level give you any sort of real sense of what the job search looks like across the HYS spectrum is obviously silly. (As is the idea that you having gotten to know a dozen or so HYS alums gives you a perspective on the broad spectrum of HYS job searching that is superior to that gained by, you know, attending HYS.) I think there are probably a dozen or so clerks in the districts/circuits in which I clerked who would say they "got to know me," and I probably shared some aspects of my job search with most of them--if anything, I was on the substantially forthcoming side of things with job search. I'd say that only 1-2 of these acquaintance/friends, at the very most, had a half-decent sense of what sort of jobs I was evaluating or what my options really were, though. People tend to keep these things pretty close to the vest, even when they're seemingly sharing pretty freely. The only people who I shared pretty openly with were people who I suspected were following a similar job search path to me. And for everyone else, the sorts of jobs I was least likely to talk about were the unicorn-type positions we're discussing here. (I did a lot of joining in the general angst about how to find a rewarding practice group at a "better than the rest" biglaw place while more quietly targeting some hyper-competitive or just weirder one-off positions that I was much more optimistic about.)

Regardless, I bet that when everything shakes out, 1-2 of the "dozen or so" HYS alums across other chambers who you've met will end up with unicorn-ish jobs. It's a small enough sample, though, that who knows. Just about all of my HYS friends, who I don't think were academically exceptional (they're exceptional in other ways!), have ended up in positions giving them interesting substantive work and a six-figure paycheck--although, again, I think that's a small sample size and not perfectly representative.

Fair enough. But I've observed where 10+ HYS/chambers alums in my social circle have worked/are working, including three SCOTUS clerks, and I stand by my assertion that they generally end up in the typical high end legal jobs discussed here (i.e. it's not necessary to read tea leaves on where people are applying). My point is that these kids had the best legal credentials possible out of any school, and they work firms or government like everyone else. Nobody has become general counsel to the skull and bones society or special adviser to the grand master of the free masons.

You've been vague about these predominantly HYS unicorn positions for which you applied back in the day (or for which your friends applied), but in my experience good outcomes for both HYS kids and other T14 kids can range from DOJ civil rights to strong public defender's/us attorneys' offices to ACLU positions to elite lit boutiques like W&C or KVN.

But more often than that, you see HYS folks heading to big firms and then government after, just like successful grads at every other T14. Is that worth 300k compared to a big scholarship elsewhere? If you take the well-trodden HYS path, then no.


Here are a couple: front office for a major sports team; founder of successful legal startup; general counsel for successful non-legal startup; private equity major fund manager; major state corruption commission; elite plaintiffs-side impact litigation boutique; elite plaintiffs-side class action firm; legal academia; and also the ones you listed--DOJ; ACLU/NRDC positions; elite lit boutiques, etc.

You're right: just about all of these positions are open to non-HYS grads. If you do well enough at Michigan, you can definitely end up at the ACLU, Kellogg Huber, etc. But the proportion of the non-HYS class that ends up in these sorts of positions is far smaller than the proportion of the class at my HYS at the very least. The difference between having a 1/10 chance at landing one of these positions and having a 1/2 chance (or whatever) is pretty meaningful. And given that the majority of alternative legal jobs come with pretty substantial tradeoffs--you either get horrible hours and non-rewarding work at biglaw, or horrible pay in most other PI positions--a significant increase in the likelihood that you'll end up in a lucrative and rewarding legal job is worth real money. I'm not arguing here that Yale is worth $300k more in debt than, say, Columbia. I'm only trying to point out a significant and undervalued advantage of at least Yale and Stanford (and probably Harvard) is the real increase in access to actually rewarding legal jobs.

If the question is whether HYS are worth $300k in debt, full stop, the availability of these jobs has to be a big factor in making that determination. (As is what happens if you don't get one of those jobs.) That doesn't change if the question is whether HYS are worth $300k more than other schools. This is not really different from the question of the thread: whether Berkeley is worth $300k full stop (which is different from the question most have actually answered--e.g., whether Berkeley is worth $300k more than some imagined alternative). Obviously, the inputs in the equation are different. But it should be basically the same algorithm.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon May 16, 2016 1:56 pm

I think you make some fair points---looks like we cross-posted a little bit above---I tried to edit my original post a little to reflect that I agree with some of what you're saying.

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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby abl » Mon May 16, 2016 2:01 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
ps: abl, i think i confused you with another poster (some hys dude who makes fun of "poors" all the time or something), you sound way more rational than that guy. the bottom line for me is that i think law school has become insanely overpriced, and there are no legal jobs (aside from scotus clerk/250k signing bonus at a firm/academia) that can justify 300k of debt. but i'm sure your average hys kid has more/better options than your average duke kid. on that we can agree.


Whoops, I see that we've done some cross posting. In any event, yea, that's definitely not me.

I actually do disagree, though, that "there are no legal jobs (aside from scotus clerk/250k signing bonus at a firm/academia) that can justify 300k of debt." If you're looking at this from a strictly financial perspective, I think a biglaw-->midlaw path justifies $300k in debt for your average T14 applicant (whose career alternative will probably be a job paying closer to $60k starting). There have been loads of expected value calculations done on this board, and as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the break-even point for sticker (assuming biglaw-->midlaw/in-house) is generally around 10-years into your career--e.g., your return on your law school investment starts to pay financial dividends about 1/3 of the way into your career. That's a relatively short ROI with a pretty large expected upside.

And if you're looking at it more holistically, taking into account job satisfaction, I do think that the unicorn-ish positions that we've described are worth going well more than $300k in debt to get. Very few people in any career get to make six figures while making a positive impact in the world doing intellectually challenging work. Just about all of the legal unicorn positions fit that bill. Personally, I think job satisfaction is worth an enormous amount of money, and I would happily take on well more than $300k in debt for a good shot at a job like that (especially given that the high pay of most unicorn positions and the availability of loan assistance programs make payback nearly guaranteed). Given that the fallback "you shot for the moon and missed" position at HYS (and many other T14s) is probably the biglaw-->midlaw/in-house path--which is at the very least a financially lucrative fallback--I think that HYS (and probably a number of other schools as well) are easily worth $300k in debt for someone looking for a job like this. There just really aren't a lot of career paths out there that give you better odds at an awesome job and where the fallback position for missing out on one of these jobs either pays very well (biglaw -> midlaw) or is personally rewarding (PI + LRAP).

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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby rpupkin » Mon May 16, 2016 2:13 pm

abl wrote:You're right: just about all of these positions are open to non-HYS grads. If you do well enough at Michigan, you can definitely end up at the ACLU, Kellogg Huber, etc. But the proportion of the non-HYS class that ends up in these sorts of positions is far smaller than the proportion of the class at my HYS at the very least. The difference between having a 1/10 chance at landing one of these positions and having a 1/2 chance (or whatever) is pretty meaningful.

That's a pretty important "whatever." I mean, if the difference really is 10% versus 50%, then your argument is strong. But if the difference is smaller than that (and I think it is), then the $200K - $300k of debt is harder to justify.

As I'm sure you know, half of the class at SLS does not end up in the type of unicorn job you describe. Nor does half of the class at HLS. Not even close. The majority of graduates end up in the same big law firms as other T14 grads. (YLS is in a class by itself, but even there the outcomes are surprisingly variable.)

Abl, I'm probably closer to your view than most on TLS. I'd pay a good deal more for HYS over a T14. But I think bruinfan10 is essentially correct: a HYS grad will likely end up in the same place as a T14 grad. How much should one pay for the 10%-25% chance that HYS will end up mattering? That's obviously subjective. But I don't think it's worth $200K+. And I say this as someone who is probably in that 10% - 25%.

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Re: Sticker Price at Berkeley

Postby abl » Mon May 16, 2016 4:25 pm

rpupkin wrote:
abl wrote:You're right: just about all of these positions are open to non-HYS grads. If you do well enough at Michigan, you can definitely end up at the ACLU, Kellogg Huber, etc. But the proportion of the non-HYS class that ends up in these sorts of positions is far smaller than the proportion of the class at my HYS at the very least. The difference between having a 1/10 chance at landing one of these positions and having a 1/2 chance (or whatever) is pretty meaningful.

That's a pretty important "whatever." I mean, if the difference really is 10% versus 50%, then your argument is strong. But if the difference is smaller than that (and I think it is), then the $200K - $300k of debt is harder to justify.

As I'm sure you know, half of the class at SLS does not end up in the type of unicorn job you describe. Nor does half of the class at HLS. Not even close. The majority of graduates end up in the same big law firms as other T14 grads. (YLS is in a class by itself, but even there the outcomes are surprisingly variable.)

Abl, I'm probably closer to your view than most on TLS. I'd pay a good deal more for HYS over a T14. But I think bruinfan10 is essentially correct: a HYS grad will likely end up in the same place as a T14 grad. How much should one pay for the 10%-25% chance that HYS will end up mattering? That's obviously subjective. But I don't think it's worth $200K+. And I say this as someone who is probably in that 10% - 25%.


That's totally fair and I largely agree (other than that I think it's often--but not always--going to be worth $200k + to go to HYS over some other law school).




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