Berkeley or Columbia Forum

[YCDAACH]

Berkeley vs Columbia


- Debt at Repayment (Edited and Recalculated for new aid and more accurate COL) for Berkeley is 160k Columbia 220k financed all through loans.
This includes interest and estimated tuition raises but doesn't include money from summer work because I have no idea how much of that would make it towards my loans.

Berkeley offered me 92k and Columbia offered me 90k which I think is the max amount of need based aid they give. If I waited a year and worked, I probably wouldn't even get that next year.

-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
From Southern CA. Not any significant professional ties here (KJD). I do love CA but the access and opportunities just don't match NY.

-Your general career goals
I'm open to different things. I primarily want to do PI or govt work, which I thought Berkeley would be better for, but Columbia's LRAP is actually better than Berkeley's and it looks like Columbia might be better for Prestigious govt/PI work. I don't want a long-term career in biglaw, but I'm open to doing it for a while. I'm more interested in PI and Govt work but the money of $$$ might lure me into, just look back up at the amount of debt I will be taking out.

-My main consideration
At this point the main factors that are keeping me from making a decision are competitiveness, the ability to pursue govt/PI work, and location (kind of).
Berkeley is better known for social justice work and Columbia is known for private firm work but Columbia actually has a better LRAP program.
Berkeley also has a P/HP grading system and a more relaxed environment. I get the sense that even California biglaw has a better work life balance than NYC biglaw. Columbia does seem more competitive, which I worry about mostly because I am coming in at below median and I don't want to set myself up for failure. I have never been to NY; I think I would love parts of it but it doesn't seem like a work life balance even exists there.

-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
164 LSAT taken once 3.67 gpa

Thanks for any advice. I go back and forth between the two schools everyday.

[Glacial]

Columbia is the right choice here.
IMHO, Berkeley, Chicago and GULC are the three most overrated T14 schools. Nothing but a full ride can make me go there instead of Columbia.

[miku015]

GULC is overrated? I'm shocked considering most references I've seen to it on TLS are that it's a TTT dumpster fire on the brink of dropping out of the T14 completely.

As for OP, I'm assuming you are a URM since you got into both schools with those stats. A retake would be the best bet since even 5 more pts would give you something like a 50/50 shot at H if you really want "prestigious" PI/Gov or alternatively significant $$$ at a lower T14. Actually, this advice would apply even if you weren't a URM since it would mean you're a rock star on softs if you could get into those schools with those stats. Pair that up with a legit LSAT and watch the $$$ rain down on you.

If you had to choose between the two, I'd vote for Columbia because of better LRAP which you would probably need to rely on from both schools, and because of "elite, prestigious" PI connections like you said.

[Nebby]

CLS

[pterodactyls]

Honestly, they're both great schools. It's sort of personal preference. Were you able to visit both?

[GreenEggs]

I just don't buy the Berk is less competitive than CLS, don't let that be a reason you pick one or the other. The weather is honestly a better reason than "competitiveness"

[Nebby]

I just don't buy the Berk is less competitive than CLS, don't let that be a reason you pick one or the other. The weather is honestly a better reason than "competitiveness"

I agree. I chose CLS because I think, on balance, it's a better hedge incase OP realizes he doesn't like PI and would rather do BL for a couple of years post-grad

[YCDAACH]

Honestly, they're both great schools. It's sort of personal preference. Were you able to visit both?

No, I was only able to visit Berkeley. I wish I could have visited both, but it didn't work out.

[jbagelboy]

Honestly, they're both great schools. It's sort of personal preference. Were you able to visit both?

Again, as I said in another thread, I think this is questionable. This is not really a completely equal choice for OP's goals. CLS is measurably superior in several ways. I'm going to just repost what I said in another Cal versus CLS/NYU thread with minor modifications.

I'll open by saying I would definitely go to Columbia here with your goals. Its more highly regarded in CA than NYU and has excellent placement into elite firms there, in addition of course to the top firms in New York.

I don't think L'Etranger is being entirely unbiased in presenting Berkeley as a peer in private sector employment to CN. I'm not saying Berkeley students are less competent or that competition there will be lighter--in fact, Cal traditionally has lower acceptance rates than HCCN. But it is incontrovertible that over the past decade, Berkeley's numbers--both for those who become attorneys overall and those entering firms or federal clerkships after graduation--have slumped and remain significantly lower on the order of 15-20% than CLS. More troublingly, Berkeley's OCI success rates are about 20-25% weaker than CN. This means that even if one buys the argument that more Boalt students are skipping OCI to do public interest, among those students who want to work for a big firm, it's considerably more difficult. Every Berkeley student on TLS will probably tell you that everyone got a good job, or that strike-outs actually just get gigs outside of OCI, ect., but there's hard data showing 65-70% success rates at Berkeley (compared to 92% this year at CLS).

I am not saying don't go to Berkeley. If you want to practice in California, it's placement is probably more on par with CN. For public interest in certain fields, the schools are peers (although CLS LRAP is superior). But if you really do want to work in the private sector, these schools do present qualitatively different outcome spreads for their (probably equally gifted) students. If Berkeley is significantly cheaper than CLS/NYU here (and I would go CLS at equal cost), then there's a calculus of added placement power versus cost, and cost very well may win out. But keep in mind that's the operative consideration here, not a comparison between peers in your area of interest.

Lastly, how did you get into these schools with a 164/3.67?

[pterodactyls]

Again, as I said in another thread, I think this is questionable.

I was going by fact that OP said he/she was primarily interested in gov't or PI work. Most of the evidence you provided was regarding private sector placement. If OP does want to go into the private sector, I agree that Columbia could have advantages.

[YCDAACH]

Update.

I committed to Columbia over the weekend, but Berkeley e-mailed me today with more $$. My new COA at Berkeley is 137k. I'm torn again.

[Dcc617]

Update.

I committed to Columbia over the weekend, but Berkeley e-mailed me today with more $$. My new COA at Berkeley is 137k. I'm torn again.

Assuming that you're indifferent to location and your COAs are correct then Berkeley is what I would pick. I don't think Columbia is 60k better.

[YCDAACH]

When they were closer in cost I was leaning towards Columbia. I'm from CA so I was nervous about going to New York and spent the last week convincing myself that I would probably love it even though I hate the cold and have never been. Now that Berkeley is so much cheaper, I'm starting to lean the other way. I'm going to see if Columbia will up my aid offer there, but they already gave me 90k and I sent in a deposit, so I don't think they will play ball.

[jbagelboy]

When they were closer in cost I was leaning towards Columbia. I'm from CA so I was nervous about going to New York and spent the last week convincing myself that I would probably love it even though I hate the cold and have never been. Now that Berkeley is so much cheaper, I'm starting to lean the other way. I'm going to see if Columbia will up my aid offer there, but they already gave me 90k and I sent in a deposit, so I don't think they will play ball.

If you already sent in a seat deposit, you should have withdrawn from all schools you've been accepted to by now. continuing to wager offers at this stage is crossing a dangerous line, unless it's a school you were waitlisted at and recently received an offer from (which is not your situation).

[YCDAACH]

When they were closer in cost I was leaning towards Columbia. I'm from CA so I was nervous about going to New York and spent the last week convincing myself that I would probably love it even though I hate the cold and have never been. Now that Berkeley is so much cheaper, I'm starting to lean the other way. I'm going to see if Columbia will up my aid offer there, but they already gave me 90k and I sent in a deposit, so I don't think they will play ball.

If you already sent in a seat deposit, you should have withdrawn from all schools you've been accepted to by now. continuing to wager offers at this stage is crossing a dangerous line, unless it's a school you were waitlisted at and recently received an offer from (which is not your situation).

That definitely crossed my mind, so I checked the enrollment form and it said "I hereby accept Columbia Law School’s offer of admission. To reserve my place,I now enclose a check or money order, payable to “Columbia University” in the
amount of six hundred dollars ($600)." There form didn't specifically say I had to withdraw all of my other applications like some of the other schools forms did. I didn't deposit double deposit, which they say they don't condone. As long as I notify the admissions office that I would no longer like to reserve my spot and then commit to Berkeley, I think it is okay. But it could me murky waters and frowned upon by them.

My cycle is starting to feel like a soap opera. My ex-lover just woke up from a coma a day after I just got engaged. There's a plot twist every day.

[jbagelboy]

When they were closer in cost I was leaning towards Columbia. I'm from CA so I was nervous about going to New York and spent the last week convincing myself that I would probably love it even though I hate the cold and have never been. Now that Berkeley is so much cheaper, I'm starting to lean the other way. I'm going to see if Columbia will up my aid offer there, but they already gave me 90k and I sent in a deposit, so I don't think they will play ball.

If you already sent in a seat deposit, you should have withdrawn from all schools you've been accepted to by now. continuing to wager offers at this stage is crossing a dangerous line, unless it's a school you were waitlisted at and recently received an offer from (which is not your situation).

That definitely crossed my mind, so I checked the enrollment form and it said "I hereby accept Columbia Law School’s offer of admission. To reserve my place,I now enclose a check or money order, payable to “Columbia University” in the
amount of six hundred dollars ($600)." There form didn't specifically say I had to withdraw all of my other applications like some of the other schools forms did. I didn't deposit double deposit, which they say they don't condone. As long as I notify the admissions office that I would no longer like to reserve my spot and then commit to Berkeley, I think it is okay. But it could me murky waters and frowned upon by them.

You're probably right that it will be fine, but it is frowned upon. I'm not saying that should dictate your decision and force you to stay with CLS, but if you are going to make a change or stay with your choice I would decide and act quickly. Deans talk and shit.

[Glacial]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

[GreenEggs]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

Well the CLS dean did come from Boalt

[rpupkin]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

I really, really doubt it. If OP decides to go elsewhere, CLS will keep the $600 and offer a spot to someone on the WL. I'm sure it happens all the time.

[dabigchina]

When they were closer in cost I was leaning towards Columbia. I'm from CA so I was nervous about going to New York and spent the last week convincing myself that I would probably love it even though I hate the cold and have never been. Now that Berkeley is so much cheaper, I'm starting to lean the other way. I'm going to see if Columbia will up my aid offer there, but they already gave me 90k and I sent in a deposit, so I don't think they will play ball.

If you already sent in a seat deposit, you should have withdrawn from all schools you've been accepted to by now. continuing to wager offers at this stage is crossing a dangerous line, unless it's a school you were waitlisted at and recently received an offer from (which is not your situation).

That definitely crossed my mind, so I checked the enrollment form and it said "I hereby accept Columbia Law School’s offer of admission. To reserve my place,I now enclose a check or money order, payable to “Columbia University” in the
amount of six hundred dollars ($600)." There form didn't specifically say I had to withdraw all of my other applications like some of the other schools forms did. I didn't deposit double deposit, which they say they don't condone. As long as I notify the admissions office that I would no longer like to reserve my spot and then commit to Berkeley, I think it is okay. But it could me murky waters and frowned upon by them.

My cycle is starting to feel like a soap opera. My ex-lover just woke up from a coma a day after I just got engaged. There's a plot twist every day.

that's a shitload. I wouldn't worry about withdrawing too much.

[jbagelboy]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

I really, really doubt it. If OP decides to go elsewhere, CLS will keep the $600 and offer a spot to someone on the WL. I'm sure it happens all the time.

What you say is definitely true about withdrawal, but you doubt they talk? They certainly do. And they will discuss individual applicants in bizarre or particular cases, especially where they are pressing multiple peers for money. I know it sounds almost unbelievable, but it happens on a more regular basis than you might think possible. Many of the top law school deans are close friends, not to mention professional acquaintances.

(This isn't even a conspiracy theory or a TLS rumor--it's a true part of the process).

[rpupkin]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

I really, really doubt it. If OP decides to go elsewhere, CLS will keep the $600 and offer a spot to someone on the WL. I'm sure it happens all the time.

What you say is definitely true about withdrawal, but you doubt they talk? They certainly do. And they will discuss individual applicants in bizarre or particular cases, especially where they are pressing multiple peers for money. I know it sounds almost unbelievable, but it happens on a more regular basis than you might think possible. Many of the top law school deans are close friends, not to mention professional acquaintances.

(This isn't even a conspiracy theory or a TLS rumor--it's a true part of the process).

Understood. I definitely believe that deans talk about individual applicants in bizarre or peculiar cases. I just don't think that the OP's contemplated action qualifies as "bizarre." I think it's a fairly routine occurrence.

[Glacial]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

I really, really doubt it. If OP decides to go elsewhere, CLS will keep the $600 and offer a spot to someone on the WL. I'm sure it happens all the time.

What you say is definitely true about withdrawal, but you doubt they talk? They certainly do. And they will discuss individual applicants in bizarre or particular cases, especially where they are pressing multiple peers for money. I know it sounds almost unbelievable, but it happens on a more regular basis than you might think possible. Many of the top law school deans are close friends, not to mention professional acquaintances.

(This isn't even a conspiracy theory or a TLS rumor--it's a true part of the process).

Are you saying that in some cases deans/admission officers will discuss the chances of an applicant and decide which school to offer him/her admission (and scholarship)? Something like: "I don't like this guy, you take it. Nah, I don't like him either. Anyone?" An admission draft? That's huuuuge!

[Rigo]

You should update the COA's in your main post so the poll isn't skewed due to old information.

[orangered]

Deans talk and shit.

What do you mean? They discuss individual applications? Just curious.

I really, really doubt it. If OP decides to go elsewhere, CLS will keep the $600 and offer a spot to someone on the WL. I'm sure it happens all the time.

What you say is definitely true about withdrawal, but you doubt they talk? They certainly do. And they will discuss individual applicants in bizarre or particular cases, especially where they are pressing multiple peers for money. I know it sounds almost unbelievable, but it happens on a more regular basis than you might think possible. Many of the top law school deans are close friends, not to mention professional acquaintances.

(This isn't even a conspiracy theory or a TLS rumor--it's a true part of the process).

I would also be very surprised if they talked about a student merely for withdrawing after paying the deposit.

Also, so what if they talk? Are you suggesting that Berkeley is going to unilaterally rescind their offer because OP deposited at Columbia? If not then what difference does it make?

And at most admissions deans would talk about it, not law school deans (which Berkeley doesn't have at the moment, incidentally).