NYU vs Michigan vs Vandy Forum

[existentialcrisis]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than Michigan, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

Look man, I don’t really want to start an e-fight over this, especially because I don’t even disagree with the premise that NYU places better than Michigan, and that that is something worth paying some amount for.

But, I said this to you in another thread, I really think you’re missing the mark when you’re trying to use Employment stats as a precise measure of expected payoff. Again, I do think NYU places better in big law, but we can’t really know how much better and I very seriously doubt that the added insurance is worth 100k.

I also think that it’s at least worth noting that presumably most of NYU’s placement advantage is with NY firms, and I would guess (although this is purely speculation) that Atlanta firms would be less inclined to distinguish between the two schools in the same way.

Edit: Also for what its worth, I'm not talking out of self-interest here. I go to Penn and so using BL + FC as a precise proxy for placement power makes my school look better. But I don't think it's that simple, and I definitely think that there's something to the fact that, at least for the lower half of the T14, the more students seem inclined to bid NYC, the better the school's employment stats look.

[GFox345]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than Michigan, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

I have to agree with TLS, flip. At $130k total debt from Mich, the OP is looking at only 1500 a month for a payment instead of 2800. With a $2800 monthly payment to make, the OP MUST do Biglaw (for about 10 years) so there's that to think about. Add that to the fact that OP said that he doesn't want to do NYC Biglaw given the fact that the majority of NYU grads do just that, and I really think that your analysis is a little skewed.

Even if you say that NYU gives a 20% greater chance to landing BigLaw that Michigan for those who try (which I myself am skeptical of), how exactly is NYU a better investment given the OP's goals?

[Tls2016]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than Michigan, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

Look man, I don’t really want to start an e-fight over this, especially because I don’t even disagree with the premise that NYU places better than Michigan, and that that is something worth paying some amount for.

But, I said this to you in another thread, I really think you’re missing the mark when you’re trying to use Employment stats as a precise measure of expected payoff. Again, I do think NYU places better in big law, but we can’t really know how much better and I very seriously doubt that the added insurance is worth 100k.

I also think that it’s at least worth noting that presumably most of NYU’s placement advantage is with NY firms, and I would guess (although this is purely speculation) that Atlanta firms would be less inclined to distinguish between the two schools in the same way.

I agree with this. The extra $100,000 is a huge deal and OP is most likely going to end up in NYC biglaw just to repay the debt. An extra 6?figures is way too much.

[fliptrip]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than Michigan, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

Look man, I don’t really want to start an e-fight over this, especially because I don’t even disagree with the premise that NYU places better than Michigan, and that that is something worth paying some amount for.

But, I said this to you in another thread, I really think you’re missing the mark when you’re trying to use Employment stats as a precise measure of expected payoff. Again, I do think NYU places better in big law, but we can’t really know how much better and I very seriously doubt that the added insurance is worth 100k.

I also think that it’s at least worth noting that presumably most of NYU’s placement advantage is with NY firms, and I would guess (although this is purely speculation) that Atlanta firms would be less inclined to distinguish between the two schools in the same way.

Why would we e-fight? I made my point, and you've made yours. You've said you doubt the insurance is worth $100k and I say it might be. There's nothing to fight about. I disagree with your premise that because something cannot be known exactly, it cannot be estimated at all. I proceed from knowing that I'm working from some estimations that have some bearing on reality. Clearly there's error with what I'm presenting, but at the very least my reasoning is transparent. I have no idea how much you think NYU's admittedly better placement power is worth. How much is it worth? Why is it worth that much?

[fliptrip]

NYU is not a losing proposition for you here and if you have international aspirations, it seems like the place. I got a higher COA figure for you to NYU, of $240k, but maybe you factored in some things that I am not aware of.

Anyway, to owe that much at repayment means you're on the hook for $2,762/month, which means that to service your debt, you realistically won't be able to make any less than $130k/year, so it's gotta be biglaw + typical biglaw exit for you. You have a great chance of attaining that from NYU, so that would be my vote.

I know you know that you should anticipate BigLaw being a horrific experience. Have you had experience enduring through something truly awful for an extended period in the past?

E: (for Fox) You cannot just look at the cost side of the investment, you also have to look at the payoffs side. NYU pays off significantly better than Michigan, thus justifying a higher outlay for it. Actually, by my math, the payoffs are roughly equivalent between NYU @ $75k off and Michigan at $120k off.

I have to agree with TLS, flip. At $130k total debt from Mich, the OP is looking at only 1500 a month for a payment instead of 2800. With a $2800 monthly payment to make, the OP MUST do Biglaw (for about 10 years) so there's that to think about. Add that to the fact that OP said that he doesn't want to do NYC Biglaw given the fact that the majority of NYU grads do just that, and I really think that your analysis is a little skewed.

Even if you say that NYU gives a 20% greater chance to landing BigLaw that Michigan for those who try (which I myself am skeptical of), how exactly is NYU a better investment given the OP's goals?

It would be nice if OP would come back. I read him as saying if it was NYC BigLaw or nothing, he'd choose NYC BigLaw. Seemed to me that he really wanted biglaw, so the way I see it right now, it's a chance for him to decide just how important that is to him.

Also, let's revisit again where one lands after a biglaw exit. A couple of weeks ago, I was skewered for underestimating folks salaries coming out. On this, I leave it to our wizened elders. How much can OP expect to earn if he gets 2 years in biglaw and exits?

[Tiago Splitter]

I have to agree with TLS, flip. At $130k total debt from Mich, the OP is looking at only 1500 a month for a payment instead of 2800. With a $2800 monthly payment to make, the OP MUST do Biglaw (for about 10 years) so there's that to think about. Add that to the fact that OP said that he doesn't want to do NYC Biglaw given the fact that the majority of NYU grads do just that, and I really think that your analysis is a little skewed.

Even if you say that NYU gives a 20% greater chance to landing BigLaw that Michigan for those who try (which I myself am skeptical of), how exactly is NYU a better investment given the OP's goals?

1. Michigan is still in "needs biglaw" territory.

2. Dude's wife will likely make a lot more in NYC than Ann Arbor.

3. OP doesn't seem to care about ending up in NYC if that's where work takes him. From either Michigan or NYU NYC biglaw is his most likely outcome.

Personally I would lean towards Michigan here but I think the wife analysis complicates things. Might help to see what exactly she could do in NYC vs. the other two options.

[krads153]

Also, let's revisit again where one lands after a biglaw exit. A couple of weeks ago, I was skewered for underestimating folks salaries coming out. On this, I leave it to our wizened elders. How much can OP expect to earn if he gets 2 years in biglaw and exits?

2 years out of biglaw? Unless you're at a SKadden or whatever, you aren't lateralling in house with only 2 years of biglaw...you likely would have to stay for around 5 years or so.

Also lots of people take pay cuts to go in house/gov/PI, etc. If you stay in NYC you might be able to go in house at a junior biglaw salary...but most people leave NYC..so it's harder to tell for me. Also a decent portion of people quit law entirely (at least for awhile, if not forever) out of biglaw. Out of my firm recently, I'd say around 15-20% of the people who quit quit for no job/left law entirely. Another good portion want to quit, but don't have the finances for it.

[GFox345]

I have to agree with TLS, flip. At $130k total debt from Mich, the OP is looking at only 1500 a month for a payment instead of 2800. With a $2800 monthly payment to make, the OP MUST do Biglaw (for about 10 years) so there's that to think about. Add that to the fact that OP said that he doesn't want to do NYC Biglaw given the fact that the majority of NYU grads do just that, and I really think that your analysis is a little skewed.

Even if you say that NYU gives a 20% greater chance to landing BigLaw that Michigan for those who try (which I myself am skeptical of), how exactly is NYU a better investment given the OP's goals?

1. Michigan is still in "needs biglaw" territory.

2. Dude's wife will likely make a lot more in NYC than Ann Arbor.

3. OP doesn't seem to care about ending up in NYC if that's where work takes him. From either Michigan or NYU NYC biglaw is his most likely outcome.

Personally I would lean towards Michigan here but I think the wife analysis complicates things. Might help to see what exactly she could do in NYC vs. the other two options.

You're right about Michigan being in "Needs Biglaw Territory" but 130k is the kind of debt in which you can put a very signicant dent in a matter of 2 or 3 years. 240k is not. Graduating NYU with 240k debt is in "Needs Biglaw Territory" to a much greater degree.

You're also right that his wife is likely to make more, but the cost of living is also astronomically higher in NYC than it is in AA. I visited recently and saw very nice, new 2 Bedroom Apartments for $1200/month that would EASILY run you 4k (and likely more) in NYC. In addition, doing anything fun costs way more in NYC. Breathing costs money in NYC.

In my experience living in an area a lot like AA for my entire childhood and then moving to a city. 40k/year in a place like AA renders roughly the save QOL as someone making 75k/year in NYC. That's a VERY important factor.

[krads153]

I visited recently and saw very nice, new 2 Bedroom Apartments for $1200/month that would EASILY run you 4k (and likely more) in NYC.

A nice one bed in NYC easily runs you 4k these days (average one bed in Manhattan is 3200-3300 right now). A decent 2 bed would cost you 6k to 7k.

I'm not really sure how anyone raises a family here....unless you're Trump-rich.

[fliptrip]

Also, let's revisit again where one lands after a biglaw exit. A couple of weeks ago, I was skewered for underestimating folks salaries coming out. On this, I leave it to our wizened elders. How much can OP expect to earn if he gets 2 years in biglaw and exits?

2 years out of biglaw? Unless you're at a SKadden or whatever, you aren't lateralling in house with only 2 years of biglaw...you likely would have to stay for around 5 years or so.

Also lots of people take pay cuts to go in house/gov/PI, etc. If you stay in NYC you might be able to go in house at a junior biglaw salary...but most people leave NYC..so it's harder to tell for me. Also a decent portion of people quit law entirely (at least for awhile, if not forever) out of biglaw.

Okay, this is helpful, krads. Yes, OP would be looking at being stuck in biglaw for however long he would have to stay to guarantee himself an exit that will allow him to make enough to finish servicing his loans. Clearly, his career options are going to be dictated by his debt service albatross, but that forces him to decide right now just how much he wants this whole biglaw thing and two, if you borrow anything at all you're going to have to make some career choices based on that debt.

[Tiago Splitter]

You're right that his wife is likely to make more, but the cost of living is also astronomically higher in NYC than it is in AA. I visited recently and saw very nice, new 2 Bedroom Apartments for $1200/month that would EASILY run you 4k (and likely more) in NYC.

But OP has already accounted for that in his numbers. So the difference on the surface could be a fair amount lower if his wife's job situation ends up looking a lot better in NYC vs. Ann Arbor/Detroit.

[Generally]

I am ok with having to grind it out in biglaw and hopefully lateral to something less soul crushing down the line if I really hate it. I know it is hard for me to say that without ever having done biglaw, so I guess that has to be taken with that caveat. My wife does music/song writing, and it's one of those things where you need to be in a city that has the market. NYU would allow her to continue to pursue that goal, I am not sure Ann Arbor would. She also has a degree in music and manages a studio now, so I think she could get a similar decent paying job in NYC. There are a lot of places like that there I assume, not so sure about Ann Arbor.

[GFox345]

You're right that his wife is likely to make more, but the cost of living is also astronomically higher in NYC than it is in AA. I visited recently and saw very nice, new 2 Bedroom Apartments for $1200/month that would EASILY run you 4k (and likely more) in NYC.

But OP has already accounted for that in his numbers. So the difference on the surface could be a fair amount lower if his wife's job situation ends up looking a lot better in NYC vs. Ann Arbor/Detroit.

He definitely has included it to a degree, but I am just VERY skeptical of the idea that the COL for NYC is only 7k more than AA given that we have just heard. Do they have some on-campus housing that is WAY below market or something like that? Does anyone know more about housing at NYU?

[Generally]

You're right that his wife is likely to make more, but the cost of living is also astronomically higher in NYC than it is in AA. I visited recently and saw very nice, new 2 Bedroom Apartments for $1200/month that would EASILY run you 4k (and likely more) in NYC.

But OP has already accounted for that in his numbers. So the difference on the surface could be a fair amount lower if his wife's job situation ends up looking a lot better in NYC vs. Ann Arbor/Detroit.

He definitely has included it to a degree, but I am just VERY skeptical of the idea that the COL for NYC is only 7k more than AA given that we have just heard. Do they have some on-campus housing that is WAY below market or something like that? Does anyone know more about housing at NYU?

I am simply using the estimates from each school as far as total coa, you can't barrow more than that anyway right?

[fliptrip]

I am ok with having to grind it out in biglaw and hopefully lateral to something less soul crushing down the line if I really hate it. I know it is hard for me to say that without ever having done biglaw, so I guess that has to be taken with that caveat. My wife does music/song writing, and it's one of those things where you need to be in a city that has the market. NYU would allow her to continue to pursue that goal, I am not sure Ann Arbor would. She also has a degree in music and manages a studio now, so I think she could get a similar decent paying job in NYC. There are a lot of places like that there I assume, not so sure about Ann Arbor.

Hence why living in Nashville would be wonderful for her. I have zero actual experience here whatsoever, but wouldn't the Nashville music production scene be a little different than in NYC or is it just about having skills and nothing about specific genres?

So, she'd just go to Ann Arbor and find something to occupy her time while you do school? How miserable would that make her?

[fliptrip]

NYU does have subsidized housing.

[Generally]

I am ok with having to grind it out in biglaw and hopefully lateral to something less soul crushing down the line if I really hate it. I know it is hard for me to say that without ever having done biglaw, so I guess that has to be taken with that caveat. My wife does music/song writing, and it's one of those things where you need to be in a city that has the market. NYU would allow her to continue to pursue that goal, I am not sure Ann Arbor would. She also has a degree in music and manages a studio now, so I think she could get a similar decent paying job in NYC. There are a lot of places like that there I assume, not so sure about Ann Arbor.

Hence why living in Nashville would be wonderful for her. I have zero actual experience here whatsoever, but wouldn't the Nashville music production scene be a little different than in NYC or is it just about having skills and nothing about specific genres?

So, she'd just go to Ann Arbor and find something to occupy her time while you do school? How miserable would that make her?

Nashville would be the best city for her career and probably were we would enjoying living the most, but I really worry that Vandy just isn't going to open doors for me and is risky. Ann Arbor would mean she could still write and do music, but since she wouldn't be in the market she would be sacrificing a lot by not being able to network with people and do cowrites. This is why I feel NYU is good for both her and my career. With Michigan we sacrifice hers and with Vandy we sacrifice mine. I just really worry about that debt to be honest.

[Aeon]

For what it's worth, Ann Arbor has a thriving cultural scene, as does Detroit, which is within an easy driving distance.

[fliptrip]

You're right it's a lot of debt and at least you can work with real numbers in terms of monthly payments, etc. so you can decide if it's a burden you can live with. People deal with having debt differently.

I don't think Vandy torpedoes your dreams as much as you think it does, though. It's not optimal, but it's not a guaranteed fail either.

I've lived in Nashville for a spell and there's really nothing like it for its niche the music industry. I could understand if she never ever wanted to leave.

[basedvulpes]