Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School: #TrustTheProcess

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krads153
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby krads153 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:09 pm

zot1 wrote:
krads153 wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
Roundhill wrote:0L here, will the ATL rankings come out after these numbers are released?

Most likely. I like ATL's rankings much better. 40% of US News' rankings are ratings by lawyers and judges, which makes the rankings much less reliable.


Where Yale is #5? Lol. You guys realize that's not how law firms view these schools right (in terms of how much of the class they are willing to recruit)? Recruiting is more similar to USNews.

I'm sure everyone who went to Yale law could do biglaw or a clerkship if they wanted to....but obviously people who have options wouldn't choose the former.


I agree with this, which is why I care more about the bar passage required positions rate than the amount of people in biglaw.


Yep - that's more important. I'm in biglaw and I'm mad jealous of my friends who went straight into fed gov or in house jobs straight out. A lot of these jobs are a lot more competitive to get numbers wise but aren't even looked at by TLS or ATL. Also, I knew kids who were order of the coif at my T-14 who just did Skadden fellowships and went straight into PI. Most trust fund kids also don't do biglaw and do PI straight out because WTF would anyone kill themselves working biglaw to make 200k a year when they are actually rich.
Last edited by krads153 on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:11 pm

The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.

krads153
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby krads153 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:11 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


Then add in fed gov or whatever...don't they post those stats?
Last edited by krads153 on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:12 pm

krads153 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


Then add in fed gov or whatever...don't they post those stats?

no

krads153
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby krads153 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:12 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
krads153 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


Then add in fed gov or whatever...don't they post those stats?

no


The schools do on their websites (some of them anyway)

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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:14 pm

krads153 wrote:
Yep - that's more important. I'm in biglaw and I'm mad jealous of my friends who went straight into fed gov or in house jobs straight out. A lot of these jobs are a lot more competitive to get numbers wise but aren't even looked at by TLS or ATL. Also, I knew kids who were order of the coif at my T-14 who just did Skadden fellowships and went straight into PI. Most trust fund kids also don't do biglaw and do PI.


It's like UCI's stats, for example. The overall distribution is roughly a third in biglaw, a third in government, and a third in public interest. That was good distribution of what my class was like/wanted. But since some people only care about biglaw, what I just said matters very little to them. I mean biglaw for life, amirite?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:14 pm

krads153 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
krads153 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


Then add in fed gov or whatever...don't they post those stats?

no


The schools do on their websites (some of them anyway)

So then people can look at them. For now the aba numbers just say gov. What we need is every school to publish its NALP report which has more detailed breakdowns plus salary info.

Biglaw1990
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.

Postby Biglaw1990 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:14 pm

.
Last edited by Biglaw1990 on Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.


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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:15 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


It does for me because it means you're an attorney. For example, that rate for Pepperdine is 57%. Why would anyone pay to go to a school that gives you basically a 50/50 chance at becoming an attorney?

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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:16 pm

Biglaw1990 wrote:
krads153 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
krads153 wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
Roundhill wrote:0L here, will the ATL rankings come out after these numbers are released?

Most likely. I like ATL's rankings much better. 40% of US News' rankings are ratings by lawyers and judges, which makes the rankings much less reliable.


Where Yale is #5? Lol. You guys realize that's not how law firms view these schools right (in terms of how much of the class they are willing to recruit)? Recruiting is more similar to USNews.

I'm sure everyone who went to Yale law could do biglaw or a clerkship if they wanted to....but obviously people who have options wouldn't choose the former.


I agree with this, which is why I care more about the bar passage required positions rate than the amount of people in biglaw.


Yep - that's more important. I'm in biglaw and I'm mad jealous of my friends who went straight into fed gov or in house jobs straight out. A lot of these jobs are a lot more competitive to get numbers wise but aren't even looked at by TLS or ATL. Also, I knew kids who were order of the coif at my T-14 who just did Skadden fellowships and went straight into PI. Most trust fund kids also don't do biglaw and do PI straight out because WTF would anyone kill themselves working biglaw to make 200k a year when they are actually rich.

Well, how do you live well with a government or PI salary? Especially in NYC.


You do realize that some people just don't care about that, right? I have a friend who is only looking for public interest jobs in California because that's what she wants to do. We are talking about a likely salary of 50k/year (if lucky). Still, that's what she wants.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:20 pm

zot1 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


It does for me because it means you're an attorney. For example, that rate for Pepperdine is 57%. Why would anyone pay to go to a school that gives you basically a 50/50 chance at becoming an attorney?

57% makes it obvious but the problem is that things aren't necessarily any better at schools with much higher rates. There are plenty of low-paying, dead end legal jobs grads can get to calll themselves a "lawyer!" You can't blame a Pepperdine grad for taking a normal job with some upside over some eat what you kill job at a small firm.

krads153
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby krads153 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:25 pm

Biglaw1990 wrote:
krads153 wrote:
zot1 wrote:
krads153 wrote:
Biglaw1990 wrote:
Roundhill wrote:0L here, will the ATL rankings come out after these numbers are released?

Most likely. I like ATL's rankings much better. 40% of US News' rankings are ratings by lawyers and judges, which makes the rankings much less reliable.


Where Yale is #5? Lol. You guys realize that's not how law firms view these schools right (in terms of how much of the class they are willing to recruit)? Recruiting is more similar to USNews.

I'm sure everyone who went to Yale law could do biglaw or a clerkship if they wanted to....but obviously people who have options wouldn't choose the former.


I agree with this, which is why I care more about the bar passage required positions rate than the amount of people in biglaw.


Yep - that's more important. I'm in biglaw and I'm mad jealous of my friends who went straight into fed gov or in house jobs straight out. A lot of these jobs are a lot more competitive to get numbers wise but aren't even looked at by TLS or ATL. Also, I knew kids who were order of the coif at my T-14 who just did Skadden fellowships and went straight into PI. Most trust fund kids also don't do biglaw and do PI straight out because WTF would anyone kill themselves working biglaw to make 200k a year when they are actually rich.

Well, how do you live well with a government or PI salary? Especially in NYC.


Most biglawyers with law school debt can't afford to "live well" in NYC so I'm not sure what your point is. Outside of NYC, etc., a gov/PI salary is a comfortable living. A lot of fed gov jobs pay low six figure salaries and I've heard through the grapevine that some of the more "prestigious" agencies like the SEC apparently start first years at around 140k (and you aren't on call). As for PI, I will admit a lot of them are trust fund kids, or you just live farther away in Brooklyn/Queens, etc. A lot of unionized PI jobs in NYC have higher salaries than non-unionized - like 85k by your third to fifth year, eventually reaching low six figures. Also you get loan forgiveness with those jobs that you wouldn't get in biglaw. I spent like over half my post-tax income paying down loans when I had them.....doing biglaw with debt doesn't mean you will be living "well" or better than someone with loan forgiveness in NYC. I was basically living as if I had like a 40k job when I had debt....

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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:33 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


It does for me because it means you're an attorney. For example, that rate for Pepperdine is 57%. Why would anyone pay to go to a school that gives you basically a 50/50 chance at becoming an attorney?

57% makes it obvious but the problem is that things aren't necessarily any better at schools with much higher rates. There are plenty of low-paying, dead end legal jobs grads can get to calll themselves a "lawyer!" You can't blame a Pepperdine grad for taking a normal job with some upside over some eat what you kill job at a small firm.


I think that's a simplistic view of the legal profession. I know a handful of attorneys who started at shitlaw making 30k to 35k per year. After a year most of that group had improved their salary at the same firm by 10k. And then another 15k by the following year. The smart one who actually got a different job improved his salary to 65k. Is this ideal? No, but unlike a lot of other jobs, being an attorney can and does have great growth potential.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:40 pm

zot1 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
zot1 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:The bar passage required numbers don't tell us anything about the quality of the jobs.


It does for me because it means you're an attorney. For example, that rate for Pepperdine is 57%. Why would anyone pay to go to a school that gives you basically a 50/50 chance at becoming an attorney?

57% makes it obvious but the problem is that things aren't necessarily any better at schools with much higher rates. There are plenty of low-paying, dead end legal jobs grads can get to calll themselves a "lawyer!" You can't blame a Pepperdine grad for taking a normal job with some upside over some eat what you kill job at a small firm.


I think that's a simplistic view of the legal profession. I know a handful of attorneys who started at shitlaw making 30k to 35k per year. After a year most of that group had improved their salary at the same firm by 10k. And then another 15k by the following year. The smart one who actually got a different job improved his salary to 65k. Is this ideal? No, but unlike a lot of other jobs, being an attorney can and does have great growth potential.

A lot of jobs have great growth potential. The questions are how likely are you to achieve that potential and how easily can you put food on the table while you wait. Those Pep grads living in and around LA are gonna have a tough time making 30k and hoping to make it big one day, so like I said you could forgive them if they decided to pack it up and try something else.

57% is obviously terrible but Pepperdine is terrible by any metric we use. My real point is that there can be a massive difference in quality between two schools with similar LTBPR percentages.

Of course, all we're both really saying here is that despite the transparency movement we still don't know enough.

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Leonardo DiCaprio
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Leonardo DiCaprio » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:41 pm

damn. duke is killing it with 76.4%.

penn killing it too with 77%. Wonder what michigan's numbers will be lol.
Last edited by Leonardo DiCaprio on Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:44 pm

I mean, I agree. I guess my point is more that some people go to school knowing that that's their likely outcome (40k/year job) and that's what they want. Should everyone want to work in biglaw and make 160k? I don't think so. I don't. I don't want it either. Well, I want the money without the work.

gazorpazorp
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby gazorpazorp » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:46 pm

Was told at ASW that Mich would be posting their stats on 4/7. Waiting patiently...

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splitterfromhell
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby splitterfromhell » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:47 pm

Anyone want to help me compile this new data for a spreadsheet like the medians spreadsheet?

Biglaw1990
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Biglaw1990 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:48 pm

Leonardo DiCaprio wrote:damn. duke is killing it with 76.4%.

I think 75.48% is more accurate. Two graduates are working at a Biglaw firm short-term, so do they really count? Has anyone ever heard of short-term Biglaw jobs? This is news to me.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:50 pm

zot1 wrote:I mean, I agree. I guess my point is more that some people go to school knowing that that's their likely outcome (40k/year job) and that's what they want. Should everyone want to work in biglaw and make 160k? I don't think so. I don't. I don't want it either. Well, I want the money without the work.

That's what I mean when I say we don't know enough. We don't know what people wanted and we don't know what other options they had. So we focus on the jobs we either are fairly sure pay well or will likely lead to something good down the line. Certainly underinclusive but that's all the ABA gives us, and when people are plopping down six figures for this stuff you might as well be conservative. Right now it's far too easy for schools to pump up their numbers with phony government and PI jobs so we leave them out for better or worse.

FWIW I think long term bar passage required is a fine metric it's just that most schools worth attending fall into a similar range on that front.

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Leonardo DiCaprio
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Leonardo DiCaprio » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:51 pm

Biglaw1990 wrote:
Leonardo DiCaprio wrote:damn. duke is killing it with 76.4%.

I think 75.48% is more accurate. Two graduates are working at a Biglaw firm short-term, so do they really count? Has anyone ever heard of short-term Biglaw jobs? This is news to me.


I didn't do the math. Just saw what that one dude posted here. Still 75%+ in this economy is good shit. Good for Duke and Penn.

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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:51 pm

Biglaw1990 wrote:
Leonardo DiCaprio wrote:damn. duke is killing it with 76.4%.

I think 75.48% is more accurate. Two graduates are working at a Biglaw firm short-term, so do they really count? Has anyone ever heard of short-term Biglaw jobs? This is news to me.


I have. Some firms provide one year fellowships. Very rare, but they are a thing. And it definitely does not mean they will keep you afterwards. The few people I know who have done this were not retained afterwards because apparently that wasn't the purpose of the fellowships.

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zot1
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby zot1 » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:52 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
zot1 wrote:I mean, I agree. I guess my point is more that some people go to school knowing that that's their likely outcome (40k/year job) and that's what they want. Should everyone want to work in biglaw and make 160k? I don't think so. I don't. I don't want it either. Well, I want the money without the work.

That's what I mean when I say we don't know enough. We don't know what people wanted and we don't know what other options they had. So we focus on the jobs we either are fairly sure pay well or will likely lead to something good down the line. Certainly underinclusive but that's all the ABA gives us, and when people are plopping down six figures for this stuff you might as well be conservative. Right now it's far too easy for schools to pump up their numbers with phony government and PI jobs so we leave them out for better or worse.

FWIW I think long term bar passage required is a fine metric it's just that most schools worth attending fall into a similar range on that front.


Yes, more info would help.

I will also admit that there are people who go to law school, don't want to do biglaw, but don't realize they could graduate and get a job making 30k per year. That's really when it gets problematic.

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Leonardo DiCaprio
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Re: Class of 2015 Employment Statistics by School

Postby Leonardo DiCaprio » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:58 pm

expecting michigan to be DONE HERE.




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