HELP! BC($) vs WM($) vs Tulane($$) vs ASU($$) Forum

[ph63]

Hello everyone, I have no idea what to do and desperately need any and all advice! Here's my situation: 31 years old, non-URM, 3.6/163 and I CANNOT take the LSAT again; I've maxed out the three chances (I know that I should re-take but because of circumstances I cannot wait the two years) I am VERY debt averse, no undergrad debt and I am NOT Biglaw or bust. I have no regional preference although I have family in Boston that can help with COL particularly at BC (they live in the same city as the school). I have a brother in Manhattan who I CANNOT live with and a cousin in Atlanta who is an attorney and has some connections. I don't know what kind of law I want to practice but am open to many different specialties. If I don't do criminal I would be open to labor, employment, international, public interest or civil litigation law. Here are my choices, I have scholarship offers from all of them, so I am going to list the schools with the total amount of attendance (COA).

BC (~ $150K) 20K/yr schol
William and Mary (~ $127K) $10K/yr schol, residency for 2nd and 3rd year (schol adjusted with tuition)
Tulane (~ $108K) $35K/yr (this was offered BEFORE my 163)
ASU (~ $98K) $20K/yr schol, residency for 2nd and 3rd year (scholarship will NOT be adjusted with tuition)
Case (~ $75K) $43K/yr schol plus $3K first year stipend
Georgia State (~ $66K) Granted resident tuition $10K schol/first year, research asst/tuition waiver 2nd and 3rd year
Loyola Chicago (~ $87K) $35K/yr schol
Cardozo (~ $85) Full ride
Fordham (~ $205K) $15K/yr schol
Northeastern (~ $60K) full ride plus $2K/yr stipend
Wisc (~ $132K) $16K/year (this was offered BEFORE my 163)

Now, really I'm deciding between BC, WM Tulane and ASU but included the others because I am open to whatever you all say. I am still negotiating with Tulane and expect to get close to a full ride when they make their final offer (the previous number is from before I got my 163) and I can ask ASU and WM for more money but am not expecting it. BC has indicated that they will not negotiate. Also, what are the chances of getting a grad research assistant position at BC or WM? I am applying for every external scholarship I can and will make some money this summer, but am TERRIFIED of the debt. I have no savings and my family has no money, I will be taking out loans for everything, although I think I will be able to avoid private loans. For a long time I wanted to do criminal law but I want to be able to pay the loans off (and I am legitimately interested in many kinds of practices). Anyway, PLEASE tell me what you think, I don't have a lot of people I can go to for advice and genuinely need guidance. Thank you in advance!

[Dr. Nefario]

Boston ties and okay with living in Boston, I'd go BC. They have recently started trailing BU in a lot of things, but it may be worth it if you're willing to take on the debt and have real PI interest and can use LRAP down the line. BC also is not bad for biglaw in Boston especially since you already have ties, so that will be an option if you perform well. RA positions shouldn't be hard to get at any of these school. I'm a 1L and I'm about to start my second RA this summer fwiw.


ETA: Curious why no BU app?

[ph63]

Hello, thank you so much for your comments. I applied to BU in November when I had a 161 LSAT and was waitlisted (I know I should have held it off until I retook it in Feb, but I applied for their public interest scholarship and they said I had to have my app in by January so I let it ride and got burned). I assume I'll be let in off their waitlist with the 163 but am unsure what kind of schol offer I'll get...

[FredTheFish]

Boston ties and okay with living in Boston, I'd go BC. They have recently started trailing BU in a lot of things, but it may be worth it if you're willing to take on the debt and have real PI interest and can use LRAP down the line. BC also is not bad for biglaw in Boston especially since you already have ties, so that will be an option if you perform well. RA positions shouldn't be hard to get at any of these school. I'm a 1L and I'm about to start my second RA this summer fwiw.


ETA: Curious why no BU app?

The only thing they have really started to trail BU in is rankings for whatever unknown reason. They are still virtually identical as schools.

[HYPSM]

This makes absolutely no sense. If you are "VERY debt averse," why are you primarily interested in BC and WM (where the COA would be highest)? What are the chances that you're going to get some huge external scholarship? (Small.)

Answer is re-take, but since that is impossible, Tulane (if they give you a full-ride), Cardozo, or Northeastern (choose according to where you would like to work).

[HYPSM]

I can't believe some people here think BC is worth the 150K. OP does NOT want debt.

[Tls2016]

OP: none of your options are good. You need to understand the regional nature of law school and the need to have ties to the place to help you get a job

[ph63]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta.

[ph63]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

[Tls2016]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

If you are debt averse you should not take on debt that you have to get biglaw to repay. The odds from those schools are comparatively low and you don't want the stress of having to repay six figures of debt. You will be setting yourself up for a life you don't seem to want.

I don't know about jobs in Atlanta from Tulane. I know Atlanta, like Boston, is a smaller and grade selective market.

I hope people familiar with those markets can chime in or you could ask the question in the threads for the school.

[HYPSM]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

Going to BC or WM under the assumption that you will somehow get BigLaw is a mistake.

The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like BC. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have to make the decision as to whether that kind of debt is worth it or not. I'm not sure if I would go to BC for 150K.

Like I said before, it would be best if you re-applied for better options (you would actually save A LOT of money by doing this), but if you are truly "debt-averse," you're going to have to take the full-ride.

[ph63]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

Going to BC or WM under the assumption that you will somehow get BigLaw is a mistake.

The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like BC. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have to make the decision as to whether that kind of debt is worth it or not. I'm not sure if I would go to BC for 150K.

Like I said before, it would be best if you re-applied for better options (you would actually save A LOT of money by doing this), but if you are truly "debt-averse," you're going to have to take the full-ride.

OP here, thank you I think you're right about everything. I like BC the most because it's the best school and I have the best ties to Boston. My friends who are attorney's have been pretty insistent that I go to the best school money be damned, but if BC isn't worth it then I think you're right. It KILLS me that I can't retake the LSAT, my concern with NEU or Cardozo is that I wouldn't be able to find a job to even pay off my COL for the three years. I visited Case Western and I liked it, but their employment numbers are absolutely brutal, same with Loyola. I'm confident in my ability to do well when classes start but I know I can't count on it. Tulane is probably going to be my best bet but I've never lived down South so I'm less comfortable and familiar with that option although it is probably the best choice for me right now...

[Tls2016]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

Going to BC or WM under the assumption that you will somehow get BigLaw is a mistake.

The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like BC. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have to make the decision as to whether that kind of debt is worth it or not. I'm not sure if I would go to BC for 150K.

Like I said before, it would be best if you re-applied for better options (you would actually save A LOT of money by doing this), but if you are truly "debt-averse," you're going to have to take the full-ride.

OP here, thank you I think you're right about everything. I like BC the most because it's the best school and I have the best ties to Boston. My friends who are attorney's have been pretty insistent that I go to the best school money be damned, but if BC isn't worth it then I think you're right. It KILLS me that I can't retake the LSAT, my concern with NEU or Cardozo is that I wouldn't be able to find a job to even pay off my COL for the three years. I visited Case Western and I liked it, but their employment numbers are absolutely brutal, same with Loyola. I'm confident in my ability to do well when classes start but I know I can't count on it. Tulane is probably going to be my best bet but I've never lived down South so I'm less comfortable and familiar with that option although it is probably the best choice for me right now...

Oh wow. I thought you had lived in the south. You shouldn't uproot your life for somewhere you've never lived.
Why are you going to law school? What do you want to do?

[ph63]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

Going to BC or WM under the assumption that you will somehow get BigLaw is a mistake.

The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like BC. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have to make the decision as to whether that kind of debt is worth it or not. I'm not sure if I would go to BC for 150K.

Like I said before, it would be best if you re-applied for better options (you would actually save A LOT of money by doing this), but if you are truly "debt-averse," you're going to have to take the full-ride.

OP here, thank you I think you're right about everything. I like BC the most because it's the best school and I have the best ties to Boston. My friends who are attorney's have been pretty insistent that I go to the best school money be damned, but if BC isn't worth it then I think you're right. It KILLS me that I can't retake the LSAT, my concern with NEU or Cardozo is that I wouldn't be able to find a job to even pay off my COL for the three years. I visited Case Western and I liked it, but their employment numbers are absolutely brutal, same with Loyola. I'm confident in my ability to do well when classes start but I know I can't count on it. Tulane is probably going to be my best bet but I've never lived down South so I'm less comfortable and familiar with that option although it is probably the best choice for me right now...

Oh wow. I thought you had lived in the south. You shouldn't uproot your life for somewhere you've never lived.
Why are you going to law school? What do you want to do?

''

OP here, I live in Detroit actually. I applied to all over the country but Tulane in particular because I thought the warm weather would appeal to me, and my cousin in Atlanta said it was a good school that was portable in the Southeast. Originally, I wanted to be a defense attorney but to be honest (and I completely understand if this seems childish and stupid) there are a lot of different specialties that appeal to me. I observed a mock trial that focused on Labor law that I found pretty fascinating, but I'm also interested in Civil Litigation, health law, and international law (in terms of international business). I'm a returning student and the vast majority of my work experience has been with non-profit work which I enjoyed. A lot of the stuff that may seem tedious- poring over documents, researching case law, crafting specific arguments, really appeals to me. My friend works at a Biglaw firm in Detroit and even though it's high pressure a lot of the stuff he told me about interested me. Obviously, I'll narrow it down once I get to school, but I feel I could be a good fit in a number of specialities (and I realize that that is not necessarily good, that I should already know and choose my school to fit my specific interest

[HYPSM]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

Going to BC or WM under the assumption that you will somehow get BigLaw is a mistake.

The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like BC. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have to make the decision as to whether that kind of debt is worth it or not. I'm not sure if I would go to BC for 150K.

Like I said before, it would be best if you re-applied for better options (you would actually save A LOT of money by doing this), but if you are truly "debt-averse," you're going to have to take the full-ride.

OP here, thank you I think you're right about everything. I like BC the most because it's the best school and I have the best ties to Boston. My friends who are attorney's have been pretty insistent that I go to the best school money be damned, but if BC isn't worth it then I think you're right. It KILLS me that I can't retake the LSAT, my concern with NEU or Cardozo is that I wouldn't be able to find a job to even pay off my COL for the three years. I visited Case Western and I liked it, but their employment numbers are absolutely brutal, same with Loyola. I'm confident in my ability to do well when classes start but I know I can't count on it. Tulane is probably going to be my best bet but I've never lived down South so I'm less comfortable and familiar with that option although it is probably the best choice for me right now...

That's very understandable: BC is, without a doubt, your best and most "prestigious" option. If you do well at BC, you will have good opportunities. The general wisdom here, however, is to not assume that you'll do well, just to be on the safe side.

It comes down to this: opportunities and "prestige" ain't free. You need to ask yourself if you're willing to pay for it, and if you are, by all means, go to BC -- there's nothing wrong with this if you're OK with the debt. But I recommended the full-rides because you seemed to be very debt-averse in your initial post. I do not think you will be unemployed coming out of Cardozo or NE, especially in NYC or MA; it's just that you can afford to do a little worse if you're at a better school.

[ph63]

OP here, thank you for your feedback, yeah the external isn't going to mean anything (if I get anything at all) I'm considering BC and WM because if I'm going to go into debt, I want the best chance to pay it back. If i get a full ride to Tulane, my COL for the three years will probably still be around $65K so is that better than BC at $150K? I don't care what region I end up living in and I have ties in Boston and Atlanta. I know my options, are not good, I guess I'm just wondering that if I were to go to BC or WM, would I be able (assuming I do well) to get a Biglaw job and at least be able to pay off my loans...

Going to BC or WM under the assumption that you will somehow get BigLaw is a mistake.

The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like BC. And there's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to have to make the decision as to whether that kind of debt is worth it or not. I'm not sure if I would go to BC for 150K.

Like I said before, it would be best if you re-applied for better options (you would actually save A LOT of money by doing this), but if you are truly "debt-averse," you're going to have to take the full-ride.

OP here, thank you I think you're right about everything. I like BC the most because it's the best school and I have the best ties to Boston. My friends who are attorney's have been pretty insistent that I go to the best school money be damned, but if BC isn't worth it then I think you're right. It KILLS me that I can't retake the LSAT, my concern with NEU or Cardozo is that I wouldn't be able to find a job to even pay off my COL for the three years. I visited Case Western and I liked it, but their employment numbers are absolutely brutal, same with Loyola. I'm confident in my ability to do well when classes start but I know I can't count on it. Tulane is probably going to be my best bet but I've never lived down South so I'm less comfortable and familiar with that option although it is probably the best choice for me right now...

Yeah, those are all great points. I think part of the reason I harped on the debt is because when I first checked these forums a few months ago, I read a bunch of stuff that said anything outside T-14 is pointless, and people were particularly harsh about Cardozo; how it'd be impossible to get a job, and only the top 5% get jobs from there. Although I prefer BC, if I have legitimately good chances to get a job from Cardozo or NEU or Tulane then I don't mind going there at all. Thank you for your help!

[BigZuck]

OP- You're all over the map here (literally and figuratively), you don't seem to understand the realities of the job market and what types of jobs that are generally available to you from different schools, nor do you fully grasp the advice being shared on this site.

You're 31 years old and you want to go on this path now because you think maybe you'd want to be a lawyer. Debt sounds like a real issue for you, and yet you're thinking of taking out a lot of it for schools that don't place particularly well and without you having any real goals or a path to employment.

Right now, I say don't go to law school. If you can figure out a trajectory for your career and find a way to get to that point with a reasonable degree of certainty and at an appropriate cost then go for it. You need to do the hard work of getting some semblance of a direction now before signing on to a mountain of debt and just assuming/hoping that you'll figure it out along the way.

Just IMO.

[ph63]

OP- You're all over the map here (literally and figuratively), you don't seem to understand the realities of the job market and what types of jobs that are generally available to you from different schools, nor do you fully grasp the advice being shared on this site.

You're 31 years old and you want to go on this path now because you think maybe you'd want to be a lawyer. Debt sounds like a real issue for you, and yet you're thinking of taking out a lot of it for schools that don't place particularly well and without you having any real goals or a path to employment.

Right now, I say don't go to law school. If you can figure out a trajectory for your career and find a way to get to that point with a reasonable degree of certainty and at an appropriate cost then go for it. You need to do the hard work of getting some semblance of a direction now before signing on to a mountain of debt and just assuming/hoping that you'll figure it out along the way.

Just IMO.

OP here, thank you for your advice, and yes I agree I don't know the job markets that well. I will contest that I DO want to become an attorney though. It's pretty much what I've always wanted to do. As I mentioned, for a long time I wanted to be a defense attorney, but after being exposed to other types of practices I found them interesting as well. I think that it's fair to criticize me for not having a specific path, but I think that I have a real desire to practice. But yes, my concern was is that if BC does not place well at Biglaw then I won't be able to pay the money back. It doesn't seem strange to me that I could see myself practicing different types of law but I can certainly understand if that makes me seem wishy-washy about the whole profession

[Tls2016]

It's not just the profession it's also not knowing where you want to live.
Of these choices I would say BU but the debt is too high. I feel that moving somewhere you haven't lived into a small market is going to be risky.

Could you live with this debt for 20 or 25 years if you had to do PAYE?

I honestly can't tell you what to do here. I am debt averse as well. So I don't think I can really help you.