Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

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abl
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby abl » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:31 pm

Pulsar wrote:Maybe I'm just way too materialistic but sometimes I feel poor as a clerk even after graduating debt free via the Ruby. I can't fathom how bad doing this while bearing a ton of loans would be. I think the list of people who should turn down these huge scholarships at this point includes 1) people from really rich families that can pay for HYS without blinking much, and . . . nobody else. Whatever special interests a person has probably aren't special enough to justify being poor forever.


I think this just illustrates how individual these things are going to be. I graduated with a pretty substantial amount of debt and felt borderline rich during my clerkships despite paying down my debt on a 10-year schedule (and I don't come from a rich family).

TheProsecutor
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby TheProsecutor » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:41 pm

Tls2016 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:I turned down the Hamilton to go to one of H/Y/S when I was 22. I graduated with well into six figures of debt. I didn't come from money so I had to pay it all back myself. I clerked, and the year I clerked it was tough financially, but overall I was able to pay back my loans at the end of my fourth year practicing. Overall, I am happy I turned down the Hamilton and would have done so again if I had to make the choice again. I think, however, if I were married, had kids, or older at the time, I probably would've taken the Hamilton. You seem to be a recent graduate and have a long time to practice law, if you desire. I am not telling you what to do and I don't have an opinion on what you should do. I'm just telling you that if you decide to go to Harvard, you'll probably be ok.


you'd be in the exact same place you are now except far wealthier with a fraction of that debt or stress over the years. but of course we all become comfortable with our decisions. I don't see "you'd be 'OK' going to X school" as a ringing endorsement when there's another 'better than OK' option.

I'm not sure how you can be so confident of the bolded. Although I think taking CLS with the Hamilton is the easy call here, and although I think folks are generally foolish to turn down $$$ at "lower T14s" for HYS, I'm not sure if I end up in my current job (which I generally like) if I went to CLS instead of where I chose to attend law school. It's one thing to say that lots of extra debt isn't worth a slight updside. It's another thing to say that everything will be EXACTLY THE SAME if you go to CLS.


I don't think everything will be exactly the same. But 3rd or 4th year associate at a big firm, maybe with a year of clerking between, describes the majority of graduates from both schools. I also don't think CLS would be described as a "lower T14". Outcomes between H and C (both statistically and descriptively) are far more similar than between, say, C and Michigan. I'm not digging anyone's jobs, quite the opposite - these schools do well for their students.

I'm willing to bet that the prosecutor poster works with CLS grads at the same firm and the same level. It's the most common path.
Also I had no debt and I'm certain I have substantially more assets than the prosecutor poster. I'm going into a completely different field and I don't have to worry about money.


I *likely* wouldn't have gotten this firm had I not gone where I went (although there are some CLS grads at the firm) and I think this firm puts associates at a competitive advantage for unique positions even outside of the law. Also, clerking is still pretty difficult feat even at the top schools, and my school made the process much easier, which was important to me.

Also, I wouldn't trust the advice of a person who says they have substantially more assets than someone they've never met. It's just an unnecessary statement intended to make you feel as if this person's decision was superior to the decision I made. Its not provable. In any event, even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, I have no debt now and have decades to amass more wealth as I'm barely past 30.

Again, I don't care what decision the OP makes, but I'm pretty happy with having one of HYS on my resume, I think that it has helped immeasurably in my career, and I continue to think it will be an asset in my career going forward. If the OP takes the Hamilton, that's wonderful as well and a great decision.

Steak n Potatoes
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Steak n Potatoes » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:52 pm

TheProsecutor wrote:
I *likely* wouldn't have gotten this firm had I not gone where I went (although there are some CLS grads at the firm) and I think this firm puts associates at a competitive advantage for unique positions even outside of the law. Also, clerking is still pretty difficult feat even at the top schools, and my school made the process much easier, which was important to me.

Also, I wouldn't trust the advice of a person who says they have substantially more assets than someone they've never met. It's just an unnecessary statement intended to make you feel as if this person's decision was superior to the decision I made. Its not provable. In any event, even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, I have no debt now and have decades to amass more wealth as I'm barely past 30.

Again, I don't care what decision the OP makes, but I'm pretty happy with having one of HYS on my resume, I think that it has helped immeasurably in my career, and I continue to think it will be an asset in my career going forward. If the OP takes the Hamilton, that's wonderful as well and a great decision.


If I may ask, did you go to H or Y/S? Because my impression is that there may be a far bigger difference between Hamilton and Y/S than Hamilton and H.

TheProsecutor
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby TheProsecutor » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:55 pm

Steak n Potatoes wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:
I *likely* wouldn't have gotten this firm had I not gone where I went (although there are some CLS grads at the firm) and I think this firm puts associates at a competitive advantage for unique positions even outside of the law. Also, clerking is still pretty difficult feat even at the top schools, and my school made the process much easier, which was important to me.

Also, I wouldn't trust the advice of a person who says they have substantially more assets than someone they've never met. It's just an unnecessary statement intended to make you feel as if this person's decision was superior to the decision I made. Its not provable. In any event, even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, I have no debt now and have decades to amass more wealth as I'm barely past 30.

Again, I don't care what decision the OP makes, but I'm pretty happy with having one of HYS on my resume, I think that it has helped immeasurably in my career, and I continue to think it will be an asset in my career going forward. If the OP takes the Hamilton, that's wonderful as well and a great decision.


If I may ask, did you go to H or Y/S? Because my impression is that there may be a far bigger difference between Hamilton and Y/S than Hamilton and H.


I went to Yale.

Tls2016
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Tls2016 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:56 pm

TheProsecutor wrote:
Tls2016 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:I turned down the Hamilton to go to one of H/Y/S when I was 22. I graduated with well into six figures of debt. I didn't come from money so I had to pay it all back myself. I clerked, and the year I clerked it was tough financially, but overall I was able to pay back my loans at the end of my fourth year practicing. Overall, I am happy I turned down the Hamilton and would have done so again if I had to make the choice again. I think, however, if I were married, had kids, or older at the time, I probably would've taken the Hamilton. You seem to be a recent graduate and have a long time to practice law, if you desire. I am not telling you what to do and I don't have an opinion on what you should do. I'm just telling you that if you decide to go to Harvard, you'll probably be ok.


you'd be in the exact same place you are now except far wealthier with a fraction of that debt or stress over the years. but of course we all become comfortable with our decisions. I don't see "you'd be 'OK' going to X school" as a ringing endorsement when there's another 'better than OK' option.

I'm not sure how you can be so confident of the bolded. Although I think taking CLS with the Hamilton is the easy call here, and although I think folks are generally foolish to turn down $$$ at "lower T14s" for HYS, I'm not sure if I end up in my current job (which I generally like) if I went to CLS instead of where I chose to attend law school. It's one thing to say that lots of extra debt isn't worth a slight updside. It's another thing to say that everything will be EXACTLY THE SAME if you go to CLS.


I don't think everything will be exactly the same. But 3rd or 4th year associate at a big firm, maybe with a year of clerking between, describes the majority of graduates from both schools. I also don't think CLS would be described as a "lower T14". Outcomes between H and C (both statistically and descriptively) are far more similar than between, say, C and Michigan. I'm not digging anyone's jobs, quite the opposite - these schools do well for their students.

I'm willing to bet that the prosecutor poster works with CLS grads at the same firm and the same level. It's the most common path.
Also I had no debt and I'm certain I have substantially more assets than the prosecutor poster. I'm going into a completely different field and I don't have to worry about money.


I *likely* wouldn't have gotten this firm had I not gone where I went (although there are some CLS grads at the firm) and I think this firm puts associates at a competitive advantage for unique positions even outside of the law. Also, clerking is still pretty difficult feat even at the top schools, and my school made the process much easier, which was important to me.

Also, I wouldn't trust the advice of a person who says they have substantially more assets than someone they've never met. It's just an unnecessary statement intended to make you feel as if this person's decision was superior to the decision I made. Its not provable. In any event, even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, I have no debt now and have decades to amass more wealth as I'm barely past 30.

Again, I don't care what decision the OP makes, but I'm pretty happy with having one of HYS on my resume, I think that it has helped immeasurably in my career, and I continue to think it will be an asset in my career going forward. If the OP takes the Hamilton, that's wonderful as well and a great decision.

I was going from your statement that you had no family support had to repay all your debt. Maybe you got a lot of need based aid. Sorry if I made an unwarranted assumption. It is true that I have saved and invested significant money that I would not have had available to save if I had to use it on debt repayment. That is all I meant to say.

TheProsecutor
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby TheProsecutor » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:04 pm

Tls2016 wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:
Tls2016 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:I turned down the Hamilton to go to one of H/Y/S when I was 22. I graduated with well into six figures of debt. I didn't come from money so I had to pay it all back myself. I clerked, and the year I clerked it was tough financially, but overall I was able to pay back my loans at the end of my fourth year practicing. Overall, I am happy I turned down the Hamilton and would have done so again if I had to make the choice again. I think, however, if I were married, had kids, or older at the time, I probably would've taken the Hamilton. You seem to be a recent graduate and have a long time to practice law, if you desire. I am not telling you what to do and I don't have an opinion on what you should do. I'm just telling you that if you decide to go to Harvard, you'll probably be ok.


you'd be in the exact same place you are now except far wealthier with a fraction of that debt or stress over the years. but of course we all become comfortable with our decisions. I don't see "you'd be 'OK' going to X school" as a ringing endorsement when there's another 'better than OK' option.

I'm not sure how you can be so confident of the bolded. Although I think taking CLS with the Hamilton is the easy call here, and although I think folks are generally foolish to turn down $$$ at "lower T14s" for HYS, I'm not sure if I end up in my current job (which I generally like) if I went to CLS instead of where I chose to attend law school. It's one thing to say that lots of extra debt isn't worth a slight updside. It's another thing to say that everything will be EXACTLY THE SAME if you go to CLS.


I don't think everything will be exactly the same. But 3rd or 4th year associate at a big firm, maybe with a year of clerking between, describes the majority of graduates from both schools. I also don't think CLS would be described as a "lower T14". Outcomes between H and C (both statistically and descriptively) are far more similar than between, say, C and Michigan. I'm not digging anyone's jobs, quite the opposite - these schools do well for their students.

I'm willing to bet that the prosecutor poster works with CLS grads at the same firm and the same level. It's the most common path.
Also I had no debt and I'm certain I have substantially more assets than the prosecutor poster. I'm going into a completely different field and I don't have to worry about money.


I *likely* wouldn't have gotten this firm had I not gone where I went (although there are some CLS grads at the firm) and I think this firm puts associates at a competitive advantage for unique positions even outside of the law. Also, clerking is still pretty difficult feat even at the top schools, and my school made the process much easier, which was important to me.

Also, I wouldn't trust the advice of a person who says they have substantially more assets than someone they've never met. It's just an unnecessary statement intended to make you feel as if this person's decision was superior to the decision I made. Its not provable. In any event, even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, I have no debt now and have decades to amass more wealth as I'm barely past 30.

Again, I don't care what decision the OP makes, but I'm pretty happy with having one of HYS on my resume, I think that it has helped immeasurably in my career, and I continue to think it will be an asset in my career going forward. If the OP takes the Hamilton, that's wonderful as well and a great decision.

I was going from your statement that you had no family support had to repay all your debt. Maybe you got a lot of need based aid. Sorry if I made an unwarranted assumption. It is true that I have saved and invested significant money that I would not have had available to save if I had to use it on debt repayment. That is all I meant to say.


That's fair. I appreciate the clarification, i took it the wrong way. I also don't think you are wrong. I just saw the conversation was one-sided and wanted to just offer my experience.

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fliptrip
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby fliptrip » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:47 pm

abl wrote:Yea, there are like a hundred of these threads on TLS and still an under representation of the seemingly obvious perspective that balancing debt and career advancement is a subjective personal decision that's going to depend on a prospective student's individual preferences.


This is so very true and that's why it is so important that folks like The Prosecutor are willing and able to come in and offer the other and very valid perspective on this question. I struggle to understand why anyone would read his account telling us he made a different choice and is perfectly satisfied with it and try to counter it by telling him that he's basically wrong because he'd have more money the other way. Yes, he would have had more money, but it was his money and he spent it the way he wanted to and is happy. OP should at least get to hear that.

Paul Campos
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Paul Campos » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:04 pm

The difference between a CLS and an HLS JD is a very small factor in legal academic hiring, all other things being equal. Tuition at HLS is already more than $60,000, and will be close to $70K by the time OP graduates. Is a very small boost in one factor in hiring for a handful of unicorn jobs that the OP is highly unlikely to get anyway worth $200,000?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:37 am

TheProsecutor wrote:
Steak n Potatoes wrote:
TheProsecutor wrote:
I *likely* wouldn't have gotten this firm had I not gone where I went (although there are some CLS grads at the firm) and I think this firm puts associates at a competitive advantage for unique positions even outside of the law. Also, clerking is still pretty difficult feat even at the top schools, and my school made the process much easier, which was important to me.

Also, I wouldn't trust the advice of a person who says they have substantially more assets than someone they've never met. It's just an unnecessary statement intended to make you feel as if this person's decision was superior to the decision I made. Its not provable. In any event, even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, I have no debt now and have decades to amass more wealth as I'm barely past 30.

Again, I don't care what decision the OP makes, but I'm pretty happy with having one of HYS on my resume, I think that it has helped immeasurably in my career, and I continue to think it will be an asset in my career going forward. If the OP takes the Hamilton, that's wonderful as well and a great decision.


If I may ask, did you go to H or Y/S? Because my impression is that there may be a far bigger difference between Hamilton and Y/S than Hamilton and H.


I went to Yale.


that's a qualitatively different choice. outcomes between Y and H are at least as different as between H and C. but that's still beside the point.

eph
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby eph » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:42 am

My reason for H over Y was pursuing a JD/MBA and Yale's business school is not on par with HBS. That said there is nothing you can do from Y that you can't do from H. Nothing. Saying no to S was a much harder decision, although same comment that there is nothing you can do from S that you can't do from H. Mine came down to if you want to live on the west coast then S east coast then H. I could be wrong but I will never know. Take the Hammy. If you were the kind of person who couldn't live without HYS you wouldn't ask and no one could talk you out of it. C at free is as good as it gets.

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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:46 am

These threads always devolve into striver anonymous humblebragging

eph
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby eph » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:53 am

Wrong. How can you offer an informed opinion on choosing a Hammy over Harvard unless you actually faced the decision? People on here helped me and I am returning the favor. Sorry if it bothers you. However I am envious of Yale's amazing basketball team.

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Kummel
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Kummel » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:16 am

Image

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Nebby
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Nebby » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:18 am

eph wrote:Wrong. How can you offer an informed opinion on choosing a Hammy over Harvard unless you actually faced the decision? People on here helped me and I am returning the favor. Sorry if it bothers you. However I am envious of Yale's amazing basketball team.

How does this negate what I said tho

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RSN
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby RSN » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:45 pm

Very late to this party, but I was in OP's spot last year and took the Hamilton and haven't looked back. The only time I slightly regret it is reading these ridiculous threads where upper-level law students and practicing attorneys debate the hypothetical merits of a decision that is obvious for the person who actually needs to make it.

OP, take the Hamilton. Withdrawing from HLS will sting for a few minutes, but getting your first CLS tuition bill and seeing "CREDIT: $-31,500" will MORE than make up for it. Feel free to PM if you want to talk directly. Or if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, here's my thread from last year, shockingly featuring many of the same players from this one: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=245100

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jbagelboy
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby jbagelboy » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:26 pm

LetsGoMets wrote:Very late to this party, but I was in OP's spot last year and took the Hamilton and haven't looked back. The only time I slightly regret it is reading these ridiculous threads where upper-level law students and practicing attorneys debate the hypothetical merits of a decision that is obvious for the person who actually needs to make it.

OP, take the Hamilton. Withdrawing from HLS will sting for a few minutes, but getting your first CLS tuition bill and seeing "CREDIT: $-31,500" will MORE than make up for it. Feel free to PM if you want to talk directly. Or if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, here's my thread from last year, shockingly featuring many of the same players from this one: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=245100


Im happy for you dude. Glad to hear its working out. Hopefully we can meet up when I'm back in NY.

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scone
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby scone » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:46 pm

I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:50 pm

scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).

Well it would also be 0 living costs at CLS if the whole thing is getting forgiven/LRAPped either way. Difference is that if you go Harvard you got a lot of debt keeping you from changing your mind.

Elbble
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Elbble » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:55 pm

scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).


One thing to watch out for with LRAPs is eventual spousal income. I'm only familiar with Yale's COAP, but that thing looks at total household income, including your spouse. That makes it really easy to be knocked out of eligibility for repayment assistance even if your spouse's income is relatively modest. I think a lot of people think of LRAPs as a total safety net, essentially equating your loans to 0, but it only rarely works out that way.

abl
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby abl » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:58 pm

Elbble wrote:
scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).


One thing to watch out for with LRAPs is eventual spousal income. I'm only familiar with Yale's COAP, but that thing looks at total household income, including your spouse. That makes it really easy to be knocked out of eligibility for repayment assistance even if your spouse's income is relatively modest. I think a lot of people think of LRAPs as a total safety net, essentially equating your loans to 0, but it only rarely works out that way.


It does usually work out that way, at least with the best LRAPs (which include H's). The mistake that people make is thinking that LRAPs are a total safety net always.

Elbble
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Elbble » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:03 pm

abl wrote:
Elbble wrote:
scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).


One thing to watch out for with LRAPs is eventual spousal income. I'm only familiar with Yale's COAP, but that thing looks at total household income, including your spouse. That makes it really easy to be knocked out of eligibility for repayment assistance even if your spouse's income is relatively modest. I think a lot of people think of LRAPs as a total safety net, essentially equating your loans to 0, but it only rarely works out that way.


It does usually work out that way, at least with the best LRAPs (which include H's). The mistake that people make is thinking that LRAPs are a total safety net always.


I would love to see some hard data on this question. I'm going by anecdotal evidence, admittedly. But most of the people I talked to went in assuming LRAP would have them covered, then found themselves largely ineligible within a few years, having barely made a dent in the loans.

Tls2016
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby Tls2016 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:07 pm

scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).

Where do you get this from? You have to borrow the money and repay it somehow. Where did 0 living costs come from? Are you just assuming loan forgiveness?
Anyone considering this plan should have a long and detailed talk with financial aid. LRAP is complicated and you are handcuffed to a job.
Last edited by Tls2016 on Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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somethingElse
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby somethingElse » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:09 pm

Isn't Columbia's LRAP > Harvard's though?

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RSN
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby RSN » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:16 pm

scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).


What others have said, plus being "set on PI" as a 0L is not a good way to make a $300,000 decision, because interests and goals can and do change during school. LRAP is a wonderful tool for students who didn't get money from other schools during the admissions process, and end up going into PI on graduation. Turning down a full-tuition scholarship before beginning school because of presumed access to LRAP for 10 years after graduating from a higher-ranked school is a vastly different calculation, and a poor choice.

abl
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Re: Hamilton (Columbia) vs. Harvard

Postby abl » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:17 pm

Elbble wrote:
abl wrote:
Elbble wrote:
scone wrote:I've only skimmed the thread (forgive me), so this has probably already been said -- if someone's set on PI, wouldn't H be the obvious choice given their LRAP equivalent? That would be even better than 0 tuition at CLS -- it would be 0 tuition and 0 living costs (and, after 10 years, 0 debt).


One thing to watch out for with LRAPs is eventual spousal income. I'm only familiar with Yale's COAP, but that thing looks at total household income, including your spouse. That makes it really easy to be knocked out of eligibility for repayment assistance even if your spouse's income is relatively modest. I think a lot of people think of LRAPs as a total safety net, essentially equating your loans to 0, but it only rarely works out that way.


It does usually work out that way, at least with the best LRAPs (which include H's). The mistake that people make is thinking that LRAPs are a total safety net always.


I would love to see some hard data on this question. I'm going by anecdotal evidence, admittedly. But most of the people I talked to went in assuming LRAP would have them covered, then found themselves largely ineligible within a few years, having barely made a dent in the loans.


I did see the numbers for one of HYS's loan assistance programs. This might be different at different T14s.




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