I think I remember from past posts..he's the HYS guy, right? OMG SO PRESTIGIOUS. Oh wait, nobody cares and you're broke.BigZuck wrote:He'll tell you all about his educational and career background, just give him a seckrads153 wrote:ABL sounds like he thinks making a biglaw salary is "making it in big in life and upper middle class" even though you took out 300k debt for it and the money is kind of shit for the high COL... He probably also spends like 3k on suits. ljl. No clue about anything, including money (making real money and having real money).BigZuck wrote:COUNTERPOINT: Boomers gonna boom, invest in yourself, something something prestige and follow your dreamsMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Only it's not just a math problem. Or at least it can be difficult to quantify.
You can't just add up years of marginal income gains minus debt and say that's what the degree is "worth." Biglaw is, by all accounts, a significantly worse job than the "replacement level" position that people would otherwise have--longer hours, more stress, a worse atmosphere etc.--and it's hard to say exactly how much money is worth your misery for the length of your Biglaw tenure, especially when you really don't have a good estimate of how miserable you're gonna be. You can sort of begin to quantify how bad that is by watching the waves of associates giving up $250k-$300k to go work in-house for $125-175k, even when they still have debt outstanding. Heck, a third of an associate class is gone by the third year, and the overwhelming majority of those departures are voluntary. Add in the fact that essentially none of them regret leaving and many in fact wish they'd left sooner and your estimate of the value of the enterprise has to go way down.
abl post, basically
Is Columbia worth sticker? Forum
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
Does Columbia offer you significant chances at specific employment, networking, etc. that your other options can't even compare? If so, I argue it is definitely worth sticker. TLS has a huge bias on sticker prices, but I urge you to do your own research and consider what quality of life you want within the first 5 years out of law school. Sticker price will significantly impact your quality of life at least within the first 5 years out of law school. Also, instead of simply viewing one school's value, compare that option with your other options carefully. Where are you getting your money's worth? Where are you more likely to succeed in your desired employment?
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
For whatever its worth, I have a family and a son and what I think most people on here would describe as a "unicorn" job. There is absolutely no way I would take on $270,000 in debt for law school, especially not with a decently well-paying job already in hand. That would be a mistake of epic proportions.
And I like my job a lot. But the odds that you will end up being miserable, in massive (non-dischargeable) debt, and have markedly less family time are incredibly high. I don't know what OP considers "more fulfilling" but I have my doubts that he will find it in law. In the meantime, he (presumably) has a good job that allows time with the family. Be happy with that.
And I like my job a lot. But the odds that you will end up being miserable, in massive (non-dischargeable) debt, and have markedly less family time are incredibly high. I don't know what OP considers "more fulfilling" but I have my doubts that he will find it in law. In the meantime, he (presumably) has a good job that allows time with the family. Be happy with that.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
I think we've established that I'm younger than you.BigZuck wrote:COUNTERPOINT: Boomers gonna boom, invest in yourself, something something prestige and follow your dreamsMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Only it's not just a math problem. Or at least it can be difficult to quantify.
You can't just add up years of marginal income gains minus debt and say that's what the degree is "worth." Biglaw is, by all accounts, a significantly worse job than the "replacement level" position that people would otherwise have--longer hours, more stress, a worse atmosphere etc.--and it's hard to say exactly how much money is worth your misery for the length of your Biglaw tenure, especially when you really don't have a good estimate of how miserable you're gonna be. You can sort of begin to quantify how bad that is by watching the waves of associates giving up $250k-$300k to go work in-house for $125-175k, even when they still have debt outstanding. Heck, a third of an associate class is gone by the third year, and the overwhelming majority of those departures are voluntary. Add in the fact that essentially none of them regret leaving and many in fact wish they'd left sooner and your estimate of the value of the enterprise has to go way down.
abl post, basically
And I totally agree that this shouldn't be just (or even mostly) about money. If you read my other posts--in this thread and elsewhere--you'll see that I've got to be on of the strongest advocates for looking at factors besides money. I also am not a big fan of biglaw. I agree that the OP's decision should be motivated by far more than what the investment potential of a Columbia degree is. My point is that the investment outlook of the degree is solid, if not exceptional. In a vacuum, a Columbia law degree isn't a bad investment. And in a vacuum, for a student who wants to go to law school, taking on sticker to go to Columbia isn't a bad decision.
Now, of course, we're not operating in a vacuum. The question is whether taking on sticker to go to Columbia is the best decision. But whether this is the best decision for the OP is going to depend largely on factors specific to the OP. That's been my point consistently here and in other threads.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
Awesome, guys. This really helps the discussion. Why don't you read my other posts and see if I seem like I'm the big money big spender type. (Not that it matters--that's the thing with ad hominem attacks.)krads153 wrote:I think I remember from past posts..he's the HYS guy, right? OMG SO PRESTIGIOUS. Oh wait, nobody cares and you're broke.BigZuck wrote:He'll tell you all about his educational and career background, just give him a seckrads153 wrote:ABL sounds like he thinks making a biglaw salary is "making it in big in life and upper middle class" even though you took out 300k debt for it and the money is kind of shit for the high COL... He probably also spends like 3k on suits. ljl. No clue about anything, including money (making real money and having real money).BigZuck wrote:COUNTERPOINT: Boomers gonna boom, invest in yourself, something something prestige and follow your dreamsMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Only it's not just a math problem. Or at least it can be difficult to quantify.
You can't just add up years of marginal income gains minus debt and say that's what the degree is "worth." Biglaw is, by all accounts, a significantly worse job than the "replacement level" position that people would otherwise have--longer hours, more stress, a worse atmosphere etc.--and it's hard to say exactly how much money is worth your misery for the length of your Biglaw tenure, especially when you really don't have a good estimate of how miserable you're gonna be. You can sort of begin to quantify how bad that is by watching the waves of associates giving up $250k-$300k to go work in-house for $125-175k, even when they still have debt outstanding. Heck, a third of an associate class is gone by the third year, and the overwhelming majority of those departures are voluntary. Add in the fact that essentially none of them regret leaving and many in fact wish they'd left sooner and your estimate of the value of the enterprise has to go way down.
abl post, basically
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
You probably spent close to 300k on your law degree...ljl.abl wrote:Awesome, guys. This really helps the discussion. Why don't you read my other posts and see if I seem like I'm the big money big spender type. (Not that it matters--that's the thing with ad hominem attacks.)krads153 wrote:I think I remember from past posts..he's the HYS guy, right? OMG SO PRESTIGIOUS. Oh wait, nobody cares and you're broke.BigZuck wrote:He'll tell you all about his educational and career background, just give him a seckrads153 wrote:ABL sounds like he thinks making a biglaw salary is "making it in big in life and upper middle class" even though you took out 300k debt for it and the money is kind of shit for the high COL... He probably also spends like 3k on suits. ljl. No clue about anything, including money (making real money and having real money).BigZuck wrote:COUNTERPOINT: Boomers gonna boom, invest in yourself, something something prestige and follow your dreamsMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Only it's not just a math problem. Or at least it can be difficult to quantify.
You can't just add up years of marginal income gains minus debt and say that's what the degree is "worth." Biglaw is, by all accounts, a significantly worse job than the "replacement level" position that people would otherwise have--longer hours, more stress, a worse atmosphere etc.--and it's hard to say exactly how much money is worth your misery for the length of your Biglaw tenure, especially when you really don't have a good estimate of how miserable you're gonna be. You can sort of begin to quantify how bad that is by watching the waves of associates giving up $250k-$300k to go work in-house for $125-175k, even when they still have debt outstanding. Heck, a third of an associate class is gone by the third year, and the overwhelming majority of those departures are voluntary. Add in the fact that essentially none of them regret leaving and many in fact wish they'd left sooner and your estimate of the value of the enterprise has to go way down.
abl post, basically
Objectively spending 300k on a law degree is a bad investment and just plain stupid for someone like OP with a good job with reasonable pay and no debt.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
It wouldn't matter if I did or not. But why not show your math? Is it a good investment? By my back-of-the-napkin calculations (assuming four years of biglaw salary -> midlaw), the OP would break even on her law degree in roughly twelve years (starting from the date at which she begins law school), and would end up over $1,000,000 ahead over the course of her career. That seems, "objectively," like a pretty good investment to me for someone in the OP's shoes.krads153 wrote:You probably spent close to 300k on your law degree...ljl.abl wrote:Awesome, guys. This really helps the discussion. Why don't you read my other posts and see if I seem like I'm the big money big spender type. (Not that it matters--that's the thing with ad hominem attacks.)krads153 wrote:I think I remember from past posts..he's the HYS guy, right? OMG SO PRESTIGIOUS. Oh wait, nobody cares and you're broke.BigZuck wrote:He'll tell you all about his educational and career background, just give him a seckrads153 wrote:ABL sounds like he thinks making a biglaw salary is "making it in big in life and upper middle class" even though you took out 300k debt for it and the money is kind of shit for the high COL... He probably also spends like 3k on suits. ljl. No clue about anything, including money (making real money and having real money).BigZuck wrote:COUNTERPOINT: Boomers gonna boom, invest in yourself, something something prestige and follow your dreamsMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Only it's not just a math problem. Or at least it can be difficult to quantify.
You can't just add up years of marginal income gains minus debt and say that's what the degree is "worth." Biglaw is, by all accounts, a significantly worse job than the "replacement level" position that people would otherwise have--longer hours, more stress, a worse atmosphere etc.--and it's hard to say exactly how much money is worth your misery for the length of your Biglaw tenure, especially when you really don't have a good estimate of how miserable you're gonna be. You can sort of begin to quantify how bad that is by watching the waves of associates giving up $250k-$300k to go work in-house for $125-175k, even when they still have debt outstanding. Heck, a third of an associate class is gone by the third year, and the overwhelming majority of those departures are voluntary. Add in the fact that essentially none of them regret leaving and many in fact wish they'd left sooner and your estimate of the value of the enterprise has to go way down.
abl post, basically
Objectively spending 300k on a law degree is a bad investment and just plain stupid for someone like OP with a good job with reasonable pay and no debt.
Edit: once again, I am not recommending that the OP go to Columbia. I think that the OP's decision should be much more than about the dollars and cents.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
Of course we're not operating in a vacuum. But dude you came into this thread and ripped a big old fart into the wind just for the sake of abl posting. We always have and will continue to acknowledge your furious boomings all over this site but come on man, we're trying to help people here. 300K+ debt for Columbia is dumb. Way too much stuff can go wrong even if your big law->mid law hypo plays out. It might work out great but the chances of it not are just too high and that's just way too much money to gamble with. And then you throw in the non-vacuum considerations and it's even dumber.abl wrote:I think we've established that I'm younger than you.BigZuck wrote:COUNTERPOINT: Boomers gonna boom, invest in yourself, something something prestige and follow your dreamsMonochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Only it's not just a math problem. Or at least it can be difficult to quantify.
You can't just add up years of marginal income gains minus debt and say that's what the degree is "worth." Biglaw is, by all accounts, a significantly worse job than the "replacement level" position that people would otherwise have--longer hours, more stress, a worse atmosphere etc.--and it's hard to say exactly how much money is worth your misery for the length of your Biglaw tenure, especially when you really don't have a good estimate of how miserable you're gonna be. You can sort of begin to quantify how bad that is by watching the waves of associates giving up $250k-$300k to go work in-house for $125-175k, even when they still have debt outstanding. Heck, a third of an associate class is gone by the third year, and the overwhelming majority of those departures are voluntary. Add in the fact that essentially none of them regret leaving and many in fact wish they'd left sooner and your estimate of the value of the enterprise has to go way down.
abl post, basically
And I totally agree that this shouldn't be just (or even mostly) about money. If you read my other posts--in this thread and elsewhere--you'll see that I've got to be on of the strongest advocates for looking at factors besides money. I also am not a big fan of biglaw. I agree that the OP's decision should be motivated by far more than what the investment potential of a Columbia degree is. My point is that the investment outlook of the degree is solid, if not exceptional. In a vacuum, a Columbia law degree isn't a bad investment. And in a vacuum, for a student who wants to go to law school, taking on sticker to go to Columbia isn't a bad decision.
Now, of course, we're not operating in a vacuum. The question is whether taking on sticker to go to Columbia is the best decision. But whether this is the best decision for the OP is going to depend largely on factors specific to the OP. That's been my point consistently here and in other threads.
Anyway, as always kalvano nailed it:
It's not something that law school types can usually comprehend because of the way we are all wired but this is so, so critical.kalvano wrote:Be happy with that.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
Are you looking at opportunity cost as well? OP has a good job with a reasonable salary now - the opportunity cost of going to law school at sticker for OP is probably close to 800k or more just by foregoing his salary plus raises and going to law school and paying it with debt (with interest) for 7-8 years....you can also invest (at least in a better market) and make returns on his savings if he were working. (He said that his current job will pay him around 90k or so by the time he's in end of law school....and maybe more raises after that.) Also what does midlaw pay? Like low 100s? Maybe even around what he'd make in his current job with raises anyway? ....abl wrote: It wouldn't matter if I did or not. But why not show your math? Is it a good investment? By my back-of-the-napkin calculations (assuming four years of biglaw salary -> midlaw), the OP would break even on her law degree in roughly twelve years (starting from the date at which she begins law school), and would end up over $1,000,000 ahead over the course of her career. That seems, "objectively," like a pretty good investment to me for someone in the OP's shoes.
Edit: once again, I am not recommending that the OP go to Columbia. I think that the OP's decision should be much more than about the dollars and cents.
Also according to lots of studies the majority of lawyers wish they never joined this profession....so he might not even stay in it for his entire life. Just seems too risky a proposition to pay sticker for law school and jumping into a field he knows nothing about when he has a good job with reasonable pay.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
That calculation accounted for income opportunity cost but not investment. But investment opportunities lost are going to be limited to the three years the OP's in law school: the OP's first year biglaw salary less debt repayments and tax will be greater than the OP's non-law school salary less tax. Adding in the interest that the OP will lose on whatever she can invest during the years that she would have been in law school isn't going to change these numbers by anything real (e.g., the OP's break-even point is going to shift from 11.7 years to 11.8 years, or something similar).krads153 wrote:Are you looking at opportunity cost as well? OP has a good job with a reasonable salary now - the opportunity cost of going to law school at sticker for OP is probably close to 800k or more just by foregoing his salary plus raises and going to law school and paying it with debt (with interest) for 7-8 years....you can also invest (at least in a better market) and make returns on his savings if he were working. (He said that his current job will pay him around 90k or so by the time he's in law school....and maybe more raises after that.)abl wrote: It wouldn't matter if I did or not. But why not show your math? Is it a good investment? By my back-of-the-napkin calculations (assuming four years of biglaw salary -> midlaw), the OP would break even on her law degree in roughly twelve years (starting from the date at which she begins law school), and would end up over $1,000,000 ahead over the course of her career. That seems, "objectively," like a pretty good investment to me for someone in the OP's shoes.
Edit: once again, I am not recommending that the OP go to Columbia. I think that the OP's decision should be much more than about the dollars and cents.
Also according to lots of studies the majority of lawyers wish they never joined this profession....so he might not even stay in it for his entire life. Just seems too risky a proposition to pay sticker for law school and jumping into a field he knows nothing about when he has a good job with reasonable pay.
I agree that there are many other great reasons for the OP to go or not to go to Columbia besides debt and earning potential. That's my primary point: there is no one "objectively" correct or incorrect decision here. The only scenario is that there is one "objectively" correct decision is a scenario in which there is only one possible set of relevant variables. That's obviously not the case. The only bad advice is to say that it's always dumb to take on big debt to go to Columbia. Depending on the OP's priorities, interests, alternatives, etc, going to Columbia at sticker could be a great decision or a terrible decision. And no amount of calling me names (thanks Zuck) is going to change that.
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
I didn't call you a name. That and the house analogy are making me wonder what all this is even about, this is kind of weird. You're grasping for stuff. People spent 3 pages telling the OP it was a dumb decision, especially given his position in life (aka out of the vacuum). And then the abl posting began. I guess there's a reason for it but it's lost on me.
Anyway, don't do it OP. If anything listen to all the Columbia students ITT.
Anyway, don't do it OP. If anything listen to all the Columbia students ITT.
- kalvano
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Re: Is Columbia worth sticker?
I'll just reiterate that $3100 a month as a loan payment is a fuckton of money. That'll be almost half your take-home pay right there. That is a lot of money for 10 years, every month. And the idea that you'll last 10 years in Biglaw - well, the odds are not in your favor.
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