Deleted Post Forum

[fliptrip]

I know how us students feel about the rankings and it makes a ton of sense. It still really staggers me that Deans actually lose their jobs on an annual basis because of these things.

[fliptrip]

^^of course, but sorting is human nature. For instance, I know shit about MFA programs or rankings, but I am pretty sure that Iowa has an excellent one or the best one or something like that. So even if USNWR goes poof tomorrow, we will still be arguing about whether Penn belongs in the same conversation with [insert schools here].

The reputation of Iowa's MFA program is a lot like the lay prestige of Harvard (and Iowa's inclusion in Girls was pretty similar to Harvard's in Legally Blonde). But I think that's something a little different than the USNWR rankings. I agree with you 100 percent that people will rank schools regardless, but perhaps they'll do it based on stuff that really matters. Probably not.

And this right here is maybe the big problem. Please correct me if I'm off, but I don't get the sense that people really debate the Iowa program's prestige or quality. THAT's what you want to have, not some piece of paper that says you're #2 or #8. It's like the place that sells super rich people things and tells a commoner that if you have to ask you can't afford it.

Maybe if you have to wonder or fight about how prestigious your law school is, it isn't that prestigious.

[WinterComing]

^^of course, but sorting is human nature. For instance, I know shit about MFA programs or rankings, but I am pretty sure that Iowa has an excellent one or the best one or something like that. So even if USNWR goes poof tomorrow, we will still be arguing about whether Penn belongs in the same conversation with [insert schools here].

The reputation of Iowa's MFA program is a lot like the lay prestige of Harvard (and Iowa's inclusion in Girls was pretty similar to Harvard's in Legally Blonde). But I think that's something a little different than the USNWR rankings. I agree with you 100 percent that people will rank schools regardless, but perhaps they'll do it based on stuff that really matters. Probably not.

And this right here is maybe the big problem. Please correct me if I'm off, but I don't get the sense that people really debate the Iowa program's prestige or quality. THAT's what you want to have, not some piece of paper that says you're #2 or #8. It's like the place that sells super rich people things and tells a commoner that if you have to ask you can't afford it.

Maybe if you have to wonder or fight about how prestigious your law school is, it isn't that prestigious.

No idea how we've turned this into a conversation about MFA programs, but actually, yes, there is a lot of argument about them. Not only which is best, but whether they are worth doing at all. Really successful writers, most of whom have MFAs, pretty much universally despise MFAs and tell aspiring writers not to get one under any circumstances.

Also not entirely unlike lawyers...

[fliptrip]

^^It's the magic of TLS. That magic and $10 will get you Netflix for the month. I don't even know how much Netflix costs. I just pay. Maybe there should be a streaming service ranking.

I am glad to know more about MFA programs though.

[ms9]

I know how us students feel about the rankings and it makes a ton of sense. It still really staggers me that Deans actually lose their jobs on an annual basis because of these things.

Well, yes and no, at least from my experience from the other side of things.

Yes, rankings are inherently flawed (see Kyle McEntee's wonderful piece on this: http://www.law.com/sites/kylepatrickmce ... 0125195253)

Yes, deans should not be fired for a rankings decrease, I agree that is absurd.

I also think that phenomena of believing a dean is fired for rankings is way over sensationalized in the media. USNWR does chart metrics that are critical to law schools (and you all) bar passage, for example. It tracks metrics that are very important to law schools, for example faculty attrition beyond the something normal often means that other schools are poaching the best from your school because your school is in trouble (and then losing the best faculty). Selectivity as an LSAT metric is highly correlated with number of applications, so if that is down year 1, 2 and 3 of a dean's tenure, more so than peer schools, it is an indication that the market is losing interest in your school. All of these are the ultimate responsibility of the dean.

Not disagreeing with you at all, indeed I am agreeing. I am just coloring it in a bit, or at least from what I have seen. It's not even like my perspective is the right or wrong one, just a different one.

[fliptrip]

^^I just got quoted by Mike Spivey! I can die in peace now...

What you're saying makes perfect sense. There's not too many CEOs who get to keep their jobs if their firms show consistent year-over-year loss of market share. A Dean is a functional CEO of a law school and the big university wants their piece of the pie. At the prominent national university I worked at, they referred to it as the "cut" and I was shocked by the extent the Dean of the school I worked at was concerned with the economics of our new program as opposed to the pedagogical value.

[NUDad]

everything


will



change

Well, everything won't change, but some some things definitely will. I was able to confirm this afternoon that there will be a major shift for one of the schools ranked between 7 and 11. This will be a sub-tier-shattering change. Also, a school currently ranked in the 20s is about to drop like a stone. We're looking at an unprecedented free fall.

Hang on tight.

Hmmm, I'll take a guess that Penn is going to drop a couple notches.

[BasilHallward]

UT to T13? T14?

[stego]

^^It's the magic of TLS. That magic and $10 will get you Netflix for the month. I don't even know how much Netflix costs. I just pay. Maybe there should be a streaming service ranking.

I am glad to know more about MFA programs though.

Netflix costs less than $10 a month. TLS membership is a veritable tax on Netflix users.

[Biglaw1990]

.

[tsujimoto74]

everything


will



change

Well, everything won't change, but some some things definitely will. I was able to confirm this afternoon that there will be a major shift for one of the schools ranked between 7 and 11. This will be a sub-tier-shattering change. Also, a school currently ranked in the 20s is about to drop like a stone. We're looking at an unprecedented free fall.

Hang on tight.

Hmmm, I'll take a guess that Penn is going to drop a couple notches.

Why would Penn drop substantially? If someone is going to fall out of the T14, my guesses would be GULC or Michigan (in that order). We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

[ms9]

The exact date is Wednesday, March 16th, fyi.

[NUDad]

everything


will



change

Well, everything won't change, but some some things definitely will. I was able to confirm this afternoon that there will be a major shift for one of the schools ranked between 7 and 11. This will be a sub-tier-shattering change. Also, a school currently ranked in the 20s is about to drop like a stone. We're looking at an unprecedented free fall.

Hang on tight.

Hmmm, I'll take a guess that Penn is going to drop a couple notches.

What makes you say that? Why would Penn drop?

I have no objective rationale for Penn dropping a rank or two - just my own opinions. I think the #7-13 schools in USNWR rankings are pretty close, depending on an individual's particular goals and objectives. Penn Law is a good school, but the business school there has to account for the fact that they gave a degree to the Donald.

[NUDad]

everything


will



change

Well, everything won't change, but some some things definitely will. I was able to confirm this afternoon that there will be a major shift for one of the schools ranked between 7 and 11. This will be a sub-tier-shattering change. Also, a school currently ranked in the 20s is about to drop like a stone. We're looking at an unprecedented free fall.

Hang on tight.

Hmmm, I'll take a guess that Penn is going to drop a couple notches.

Why would Penn drop substantially? If someone is going to fall out of the T14, my guesses would be GULC or Michigan (in that order). We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

I don't think we'll see anyone drop out of the T14, but perhaps a little reshuffling in #7-13.

[ms9]

everything


will



change

Well, everything won't change, but some some things definitely will. I was able to confirm this afternoon that there will be a major shift for one of the schools ranked between 7 and 11. This will be a sub-tier-shattering change. Also, a school currently ranked in the 20s is about to drop like a stone. We're looking at an unprecedented free fall.

Hang on tight.

Hmmm, I'll take a guess that Penn is going to drop a couple notches.

Why would Penn drop substantially? If someone is going to fall out of the T14, my guesses would be GULC or Michigan (in that order). We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

I don't think we'll see anyone drop out of the T14, but perhaps a little reshuffling in #7-13.

You are wise. The separation between 14 and 15 is two raw scores, while there are a number of t14 schools separated by 1 raw score. I'd go into more detail but don't want to give unfair advice for the USNWR Prediction Contest, so I will stop at that.

[rpupkin]

I don't think we'll see anyone drop out of the T14, but perhaps major a little reshuffling in #7-13.

You are wise. The separation between 14 and 15 is two raw scores, while there are a number of t14 schools separated by 1 raw score. I'd go into more detail but don't want to give unfair advice for the USNWR Prediction Contest, so I will stop at that.

Credited.

[NUDad]

Wow! A major reshuffling certainly piques my interest.

[rpupkin]

Wow! A major reshuffling certainly piques my interest.

As it should. Just speaking hypothetically, imagine that you've been accepted ED to a school ranked #7. And you're thinking: "This school is going to be T6--maybe even T5--by the time I'm a 3L." And then, lo and behold, March 16 rolls around and you find yourself contractually committed to attending a school ranked...#11. That would sting, wouldn't it?

Again, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

[woodchuck78]

This may be a stupid question, but who decided that the cutoff for the "upper echelon" if you so call it would be the T14 in the first place? Such a random number. Why not 15? Why not 13? Is there just no method to this madness?

[Lawcat11]

This may be a stupid question, but who decided that the cutoff for the "upper echelon" if you so call it would be the T14 in the first place? Such a random number. Why not 15? Why not 13? Is there just no method to this madness?

I think it's because the T14 have always been the top 14 since the rankings first went out.

[woodchuck78]

This may be a stupid question, but who decided that the cutoff for the "upper echelon" if you so call it would be the T14 in the first place? Such a random number. Why not 15? Why not 13? Is there just no method to this madness?

I think it's because the T14 have always been the top 14 since the rankings first went out.

I'm willing to bet one day it'll change. If Justice Thomas can start asking questions during oral arguments AND Leo can win an Oscar in the same week, anything is possible.

[rpupkin]

This may be a stupid question, but who decided that the cutoff for the "upper echelon" if you so call it would be the T14 in the first place? Such a random number. Why not 15? Why not 13? Is there just no method to this madness?

I think it's because the T14 have always been the top 14 since the rankings first went out.

That's not actually true. UCLA and UT have occasionally made it into the top 14 schools, and NU and Cornell have been ranked lower than #14.

I recall someone mentioning that every school in the "T14" has been ranked in the T10 at some point--which I think is true. But I don't think that's why folks focus on the top 14 schools. I think it's because the top 14 schools have relatively strong national (as opposed to regional) placement power. For years, there was a pretty steep drop-off between Duke/NU/Cornell/GULC and UCLA/UT/Vandy. GULC has struggled of late, thus blurring the T14/regional school dividing line a bit.

[NUDad]

Wow! A major reshuffling certainly piques my interest.

As it should. Just speaking hypothetically, imagine that you've been accepted ED to a school ranked #7. And you're thinking: "This school is going to be T6--maybe even T5--by the time I'm a 3L." And then, lo and behold, March 16 rolls around and you find yourself contractually committed to attending a school ranked...#11. That would sting, wouldn't it?

Again, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

No kidding! I think I understand what you're hypothetically saying.

[rpupkin]

Wow! A major reshuffling certainly piques my interest.

As it should. Just speaking hypothetically, imagine that you've been accepted ED to a school ranked #7. And you're thinking: "This school is going to be T6--maybe even T5--by the time I'm a 3L." And then, lo and behold, March 16 rolls around and you find yourself contractually committed to attending a school ranked...#11. That would sting, wouldn't it?

Again, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

No kidding! I think I understand what you're hypothetically saying.

[JusPassItToWill]

Wow! A major reshuffling certainly piques my interest.

As it should. Just speaking hypothetically, imagine that you've been accepted ED to a school ranked #7. And you're thinking: "This school is going to be T6--maybe even T5--by the time I'm a 3L." And then, lo and behold, March 16 rolls around and you find yourself contractually committed to attending a school ranked...#11. That would sting, wouldn't it?

Again, I'm just speaking hypothetically.

No kidding! I think I understand what you're hypothetically saying.

So... hypothetically speaking, do these rankings directly correlate to the actual changes, or are the numbers changed to protect the innocent?

is it penn