Howard University Law BigLaw Placement Forum

[lightofurlife]

Firms have to account for students who are competitive that select HBCUs Howard instead of top 20 schools.

There are five HBCU law schools. Here are their BL + FC%s:

Howard: 24%
TSU: 1%
Southern: 2%
FAMU: 2%
NCCU: 2%

Clearly the firms have figured out where the quality is and they are happy to go to HU to get the types of candidates they are looking for. I do think it's a very interesting discussion about this phenomenon in where black students choose to matriculate.

And by the way, LOL, just LOL at not going deeper in a class of 5 black kids at Washington and Lee. 5?!

I agree with you. The dynamics of HBCUs mirrors PWI schools. There is a tier system but not enough schools to call it a tier system. Howard= the Harvard of HBCU law schools.

It's hard to discuss why black students matriculated at certain schools because often the reasons are not understood because people lack the insight to understand they are privaleged.

Idk if it's 5 at W&L lol I just remember last year someone on tls made a thread about W&L only enrolling one black student. I got accepted into W&L and withdrew my application after seeing that.

I went to a PWI for undergrad but we still had a diverse community so I'm all for schools who foster that but W&L needs to get it together.

[pancakes3]

It's quite a wild accusation to say firms are hiring at Howard just because of the ethnicity of their students and to imply that they aren't capable. If this is the case how do firms even decide upon candidates. Do they just close their eyes and pick a random negreo?

How does it work if howard students are being picked by skin color?? What's the formula???

I don't understand why people are so offended at firms recruiting from Howard.

I don't understand why you're offended that firms recruit from Howard primarily because of the concentration of URM's especially since it sounds like you also chose Howard primarily because of its concentration of URM's.

I mean, race aside, based on GPA/LSAT? Yeah, WL is a better school than Howard. The assumption isn't that Howard isn't capable but that WL is more capable - which is an important distinction especially given the supply/demand of JD's/jobs.

So race is the deciding factor as to why firms go to Howard rather than WL/WM/MD/GMU/AU/etc. More pleasingly put - diversity is the deciding factor. Firms *could* waste resources and work their way down the USNWR rankings, specifically asking for the top x% AND the top 5/10 URM students to interview, or they can go to Howard. They go to Howard. I don't think they put too much thought as to whether or not lightofurlife could have gotten into WL but chose Howard instead.

For the record, I'm not offended or salty that Howard OCIs outperform its rankings. I think it's a good thing.

[lightofurlife]

It's quite a wild accusation to say firms are hiring at Howard just because of the ethnicity of their students and to imply that they aren't capable. If this is the case how do firms even decide upon candidates. Do they just close their eyes and pick a random negreo?

How does it work if howard students are being picked by skin color?? What's the formula???

I don't understand why people are so offended at firms recruiting from Howard.

I don't understand why you're offended that firms recruit from Howard primarily because of the concentration of URM's especially since it sounds like you also chose Howard primarily because of its concentration of URM's.

I mean, race aside, based on GPA/LSAT? Yeah, WL is a better school than Howard. The assumption isn't that Howard isn't capable but that WL is more capable - which is an important distinction especially given the supply/demand of JD's/jobs.

So race is the deciding factor as to why firms go to Howard rather than WL/WM/MD/GMU/AU/etc. More pleasingly put - diversity is the deciding factor. Firms *could* waste resources and work their way down the USNWR rankings, specifically asking for the top x% AND the top 5/10 URM students to interview, or they can go to Howard. They go to Howard. I don't think they put too much thought as to whether or not lightofurlife could have gotten into WL but chose Howard instead.

For the record, I'm not offended or salty that Howard OCIs outperform its rankings. I think it's a good thing.

I agree that they go to Howard for diversity. What I don't agree with is that the urms at W&L/wm/md ect out perform the students at Howard. Students at the top of their class at Howard have similar stats to URMs at the middle or bottom of their class at the schools you listed.

They are not more qualified, if they were firms wouldn't have to dig to the bottom of the class to find them.

So yes firms do put thought into it. A person at the top of their class has proven themselves, if I have to dig for you you are underperforming.

I know not everyone is offended and some people want an honest discussion but I see on tls time and time again posters claiming its "bullshit" or "reverse racism" or "not fair" as if to suggest black schools and black students are inferior to white schools and white students and don't deserve opportunity.

My point is we are not inferior or less deserving and we can compete and I guarantee no one is settling for us. Let's be honest, Howard could be perfect and outperform in every area and it still wouldn't break the top 100 in rankings....we all know why.

What's the difference between a student with a 158 LSAT from Washington and lee who is at the bottom of their class and got in with the urm boost vs the student at howard with a 158 LSAT and is in the top 20%???? What makes them more deserving? Other than the fact they went to a white school....

As a black person who has seen this happen time and time again I realize blacks settle for what it is. We can't play the rankings game but that doesn't mean we're inferior. I see that with the neighborhood I live in. We're predominately black, have country clubs, and half million dollar homes but our neighborhood is considered the hood...or code for don't move there because there are blacks there. Everything black is deemed less than no matter how we perform or out perform. When my parents were in medical school my dad was told blacks are too dumb despite him scoring almost perfect on EVERY exam. He far superseded his white peers but was still told he was incapable. I see the same thing happening with Howard's law school. No matter how well the students perform it will never get the rank it deserves.

Rank us last if you wish but don't deem us less capable because I'm sure we can outperform anyone.

[jrass]

Howard has a large # of black students in the top 25% of the class, and top 25% grades indicate more than enough competence to do the work. If one year is an anomaly and there are no black students in the top quarter then their #'s would be on par with other schools in its range. Most of those getting these jobs out of Howard would get them from other schools as well. They're just disproportionately like to go to Howard.

[pancakes3]

I think a viable (albeit weak) counterargument is that it isn't fair to give Howard preference because:

a) top 25% at WL regardless of race isn't getting the same opportunities as top 25% at Howard, despite being more highly ranked.

b) top 25% at WL could be a URM and won't get the same opportunities as top 25% at Howard, despite being more highly ranked.

That's not a desirable outcome because:
1) if you're black, you're incentivized to attend Howard and not PWI's, which perpetuates the lack of diversity at PWI law schools.
2) if you're not black but still URM, you're not being given a fair shot.

The "us vs them" black vs white argument seems to be a facile argument - to me at least.

[jnwa]

It's quite a wild accusation to say firms are hiring at Howard just because of the ethnicity of their students and to imply that they aren't capable. If this is the case how do firms even decide upon candidates. Do they just close their eyes and pick a random negreo?

How does it work if howard students are being picked by skin color?? What's the formula???

I don't understand why people are so offended at firms recruiting from Howard.

I don't understand why you're offended that firms recruit from Howard primarily because of the concentration of URM's especially since it sounds like you also chose Howard primarily because of its concentration of URM's.

I mean, race aside, based on GPA/LSAT? Yeah, WL is a better school than Howard. The assumption isn't that Howard isn't capable but that WL is more capable - which is an important distinction especially given the supply/demand of JD's/jobs.

So race is the deciding factor as to why firms go to Howard rather than WL/WM/MD/GMU/AU/etc. More pleasingly put - diversity is the deciding factor. Firms *could* waste resources and work their way down the USNWR rankings, specifically asking for the top x% AND the top 5/10 URM students to interview, or they can go to Howard. They go to Howard. I don't think they put too much thought as to whether or not lightofurlife could have gotten into WL but chose Howard instead.

For the record, I'm not offended or salty that Howard OCIs outperform its rankings. I think it's a good thing.

I agree that they go to Howard for diversity. What I don't agree with is that the urms at W&L/wm/md ect out perform the students at Howard. Students at the top of their class at Howard have similar stats to URMs at the middle or bottom of their class at the schools you listed.

They are not more qualified, if they were firms wouldn't have to dig to the bottom of the class to find them.

So yes firms do put thought into it. A person at the top of their class has proven themselves, if I have to dig for you you are underperforming.

I know not everyone is offended and some people want an honest discussion but I see on tls time and time again posters claiming its "bullshit" or "reverse racism" or "not fair" as if to suggest black schools and black students are inferior to white schools and white students and don't deserve opportunity.

My point is we are not inferior or less deserving and we can compete and I guarantee no one settling for us. Let's be honest, Howard could be perfect and outperform in every area and it still wouldn't break the top 100 in rankings....we all know why.

As a black person who has seen this happen time and time again I realize blacks settle for what it is. We can't play the rankings game but that doesn't mean we're inferior. I see that with the neighborhood I live in. We're predominately black, have country clubs, and half million dollar homes but our neighborhood is considered the hood...or code for don't move there because there are blacks there. Everything black is deemed less than no matter how we perform or out perform. When my parents were in medical school my dad was told blacks are too dumb despite him scoring almost perfect on EVERY exam. He far superseded his white peers but was still told he was incapable. I see the same thing happening with Howard's law school. No matter how well the students perform it will never get the rank it deserves.

Rank us last if you wish but don't deem us less capable because I'm sure we can outperform anyone.

To be fair it isnt ridiculous to say that Howard top 20% students might be less capable(not incapable) than W and M median or below median students because the class compositions are very different. There probably arent any 150 lsats at W and M while more than half the students at Howard scored there or lower. If the below median black student and W and M had to get graded against a class with less competitive stats, hed probably finish higher on the curve.

Class quality is a huge factor when discussing what percentile one finishes in. Its part of the reason why some firms will dip into median at HYS but maybe only top 25% at lower t14. Add to that the fact that the class quality differential between HYS and lower T14 is much smaller than between W and M and Howard, and I dont think you can make the claim that top 20% at Howard makes you more qualified than students at schools that are much more difficult to gain admission into. A person at the top has proven themselves but the quality of the competition has to be taken into account.

From my interactions with students from HCBU's and statistics about the great job they do graduating black professionals, i definitely think they serve an important function. But i think its disingenuous to act as if their ranking is a result of racism and not a plethora of quantifiable factors. Some schools are better than others, its okay to admit that.

[fliptrip]

And let me be the first to point out that this looks a lot like an AA debate and we should cool it.

[cron1834]

#AllOCIsMatter

[BigZuck]

And let me be the first to point out that this looks a lot like an AA debate and we should cool it.

Sublime is going to lock the thread now that cron made that joke, don't worry

[cron1834]

[lightofurlife]

And let me be the first to point out that this looks a lot like an AA debate and we should cool it.

These issues were in place before AA even existed. Black law schools predate AA so no one should discuss AA, I'm strictly speaking on the perceived inferiority of black schools. Nothing to do with AA.

I think a viable (albeit weak) counterargument is that it isn't fair to give Howard preference because:

a) top 25% at WL regardless of race isn't getting the same opportunities as top 25% at Howard, despite being more highly ranked.

b) top 25% at WL could be a URM and won't get the same opportunities as top 25% at Howard, despite being more highly ranked.

That's not a desirable outcome because:
1) if you're black, you're incentivized to attend Howard and not PWI's, which perpetuates the lack of diversity at PWI law schools.
2) if you're not black but still URM, you're not being given a fair shot.

The "us vs them" black vs white argument seems to be a facile argument - to me at least.

This is a decent counter argument, my counter argument would be W&L only has their ranking because of lay prestige so if you are seeking big law opportunities regardless of race it probably wouldn't be a good choice because of their rapid decline.

And I think black students should be incentivized to attend howard because if we're not the school would die out and it was the first institution to educate us in the field of law. It is worth preserving, to maintain the privelage of being educated within your own ethnic group is a big deal. Restoring and maintaining HBCUs are vital to diversity efforts because all blacks are not comfortable or well adjusted to the culture of pwis so without them we'd decrease the amount if black attorneys greatly because some will just opt out of law school all together.

I'd argue that non black urms have institutions of higher learning within their home countries, because America is the home country of black Americans we have a duty to preserve our institutions with the help of all Americans regardless of race. A urm from North Africa can go to a predominately North African school at their home country, a Chinese minority can go to a school where they are the majority in China. If the institutions at their country of origin aren't sufficient they should work to better that. Black Americans deserve that privalege that every other majority and minority maintain. We are a special case because our HBCUs are all we have and if we don't receive opportunity from them we don't receive much opportunity period.

I can see how it appears facile, I think it is just multilayered and not easy to explain because there are so many explanations, various cases, and centuries of history.

[fliptrip]

And let me be the first to point out that this looks a lot like an AA debate and we should cool it.

These issues were in place before AA even existed. Black law schools predate AA so no one should discuss AA, I'm strictly speaking on the perceived inferiority of black schools. Nothing to do with AA.

As you can see from cron's stupid joke, which I personally found offensive, the moment this turned into a discussion of race + perception + quality, we ended up in a not so pleasant place for an on-topic forum.

[Tiago Splitter]

This is a decent counter argument, my counter argument would be W&L only has their ranking because of lay prestige so if you are seeking big law opportunities regardless of race it probably wouldn't be a good choice because of their rapid decline.

You're far too focused on rankings. School rankings are almost totally meaningless and shouldn't play into a decision to matriculate anywhere.

The initial question was why Howard, with a 152 LSAT median, places so many more students into biglaw than its LSAT peers. The answer is obvious and really shouldn't cause so much consternation.

[lightofurlife]

This is a decent counter argument, my counter argument would be W&L only has their ranking because of lay prestige so if you are seeking big law opportunities regardless of race it probably wouldn't be a good choice because of their rapid decline.

You're far too focused on rankings. School rankings are almost totally meaningless and shouldn't play into a decision to matriculate anywhere.

The initial question was why Howard, with a 152 LSAT median, places so many more students into biglaw than its LSAT peers. The answer is obvious and really shouldn't cause so much consternation.

I think your answer to the orginal question was a very good answer.

I added mine to address the entitled whiny posters claiming it was "bullshit" and that firms were "settling".

Of course people are being politically correcet but I'm calling "bullshit" those posters were saying black schools are too inferior to be recruited from. It's racist and entitled. Calling a spade a spade. Going to a white school doesn't entitle you to having a better oci. As they like to tell everyone else score higher and go to a better school.

[cron1834]

And let me be the first to point out that this looks a lot like an AA debate and we should cool it.

These issues were in place before AA even existed. Black law schools predate AA so no one should discuss AA, I'm strictly speaking on the perceived inferiority of black schools. Nothing to do with AA.

As you can see from cron's stupid joke, which I personally found offensive, the moment this turned into a discussion of race + perception + quality, we ended up in a not so pleasant place for an on-topic forum.

God you're a bootlicker. Let them discuss. Mods are free to do as they feel, independent of you being offended at the drop of a hat.

[fliptrip]

And let me be the first to point out that this looks a lot like an AA debate and we should cool it.

These issues were in place before AA even existed. Black law schools predate AA so no one should discuss AA, I'm strictly speaking on the perceived inferiority of black schools. Nothing to do with AA.

As you can see from cron's stupid joke, which I personally found offensive, the moment this turned into a discussion of race + perception + quality, we ended up in a not so pleasant place for an on-topic forum.

God you're a bootlicker. Let them discuss. Mods are free to do as they feel, independent of you being offended at the drop of a hat.

I consider it an honor to be insulted by you. Wanna keep going?

[Tiago Splitter]

Now, now.