Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

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dangthinh121

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Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:41 pm

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:02 pm

I would not go to law school if these are your options. The cost is too high and the job placement is too poor. You need to retake the LSAT.

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Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:07 pm

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby cbbinnyc » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:10 pm

Disclaimer, I am a 0L, but my sense is that a legal education would be a real slog for somebody who doesn't have an excellent command of English, no matter what school you go to. That said, you did manage a 3.89 at a US university ... did you take many humanities classes with difficult reading loads?

Given your goals, NYLS is the better choice, I think. Very very few people from WCL go to New York after graduation.

That said, the real answer is: neither. Those schools will both give you a slim chance at decent legal employment in NYC. Also, what do you mean when you say "the financial debt does not seem to be a main burden"? Do you mean that your family will be able to pay your tuition so debt is not an issue? Either way, it's not a good idea to go to these schools, but if are taking on debt to go to these schools it is an especially bad decision. Sounds like you might get no money from WCL, and 15k from NYLS is essentially nothing. You would be taking on substantial debt with poor employment prospects.

Retake the LSAT, get into a better school, improve your English, don't waste that GPA. I know you already preempted this sort of answer, but the reason people in this forum will give you that answer is because it is good advice.
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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby BKB » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:10 pm

Are you US citizen or green card holder? If you need work visa, don't go to anything below T14.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:19 pm

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:20 pm

BKB wrote:Are you US citizen or green card holder? If you need work visa, don't go to anything below T14.


Fortunately, my wife sponsors me to live here and I am now being a permanent resident. I will become a citizen in the next few years. :D

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby mvp99 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:26 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:
cbbinnyc wrote:Disclaimer, I am a 0L, but my sense is that a legal education would be a real slog for somebody who doesn't have an excellent command of English, no matter what school you go to. That said, you did manage a 3.89 at a US university ... did you take many humanities classes with difficult reading loads?

Given your goals, NYLS is the better choice, I think. Very very few people from WCL go to New York after graduation.

That said, the real answer is: neither. Those schools will both give you a slim chance at decent legal employment in NYC. Also, what do you mean when you say "the financial debt does not seem to be a main burden"? Do you mean that your family will be able to pay your tuition so debt is not an issue? Either way, it's not a good idea to go to these schools, but if are taking on debt to go to these schools it is an especially bad decision. Sounds like you might get no money from WCL, and 15k from NYLS is essentially nothing. You would be taking on substantial debt with poor employment prospects.

Retake the LSAT, get into a better school, improve your English, don't waste that GPA. I know you already preempted this sort of answer, but the reason people in this forum will give you that answer is because it is good advice.


I extremely appreciate your advice that really helps me significantly. My dad is a businessman in my home country; thus paying tuition is not really challenging for him. As mentioned previously, becoming a lawyer is my dream, and I do not mind working hard to get a chance even it's very slim. I have already heard mixed information about NYLS, but just want to confirm how bad is it. My goal is not working in big law firm because I understand my ability and my English. Is it possible if I can find a job with 60k salary from NYLS in NYC ?
Sincerely,


If your goal is to become a lawyer then you have to retake the LSAT and be admitted to better schools. It is not like you can just "work hard" and you will be able to find a job. That's not how it works. Your first job as a lawyer is mainly a function of the school you attend and your GPA. Even if you manage to get a good GPA at any of these schools, getting a job will be extremely difficult. Combine that with the amount of money and time you'll spend getting a JD means it won't be worth the risk of not becoming a lawyer in the end. I think this holds true even if your dad is a millionaire.

tldr: Retake

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby lymenheimer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:28 pm

If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby gnomgnomuch » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:34 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:First of all, I want to say "Hi" to everyone in TLS forum, and wish best luck to you guys. I am pretty sure that you guys have already received several offers since it is already in February. I have been living in the U.S for 4 years, and just took the LSAT in this December. My LSAC GPA is not pretty bad (3.89) from a local school, University of Houston. However, my LSAT is slightly above average. I have been admitted in several schools with scholarships:
NYLS: 15k
Albany: 18k
Touro: 25k
Syracuse: 10k
Pace: 20k

New England: 30k
Suffolk : 15k
UMass: 37k5/3 years

Washington DC:
WCL ( no scholarship info yet)

CA:
Western State: 30k
Golden Gate: 40k

Wailisted:
Cardozo Law school

Not decision yet: Sunny, Fordham, Brooklyn, GW, St John, UH Law, South Texas
My dream is working in NYC with the concentration in Real Estate or International Law, and I also want to study in NYC. However, WCL seems to be the highest-ranked school that I can get into. My mind is debating either WCL or NYLS. Honestly, I came from a family with strong background of finance; thus the financial debt does not seem to be a main burden. If I choose to WCL, will it be possible to find a job in NYC after graduating ? Or NYLS seems to be the best bet since I want to work in NYC. I understand that many people in forum will tell me to re take LSAT, or not to go to law school. However, it seems to attend law school this year is my purpose and I appreciate all of your advice.
I appreciate your time for reading. :D


With a 3.89 gpa you shouldn't be going to any of these schools. Retake the LSAT and break into the 160's and then go to a regional school in the area you want to live in for free. OR, retake the LSAT and break into the 170's and go to a T-14 for free.

Also, you need near perfect English for law school.

Finally, the schools you have listed provide you with very little in the way of opportunities. You'll be taking on a LOT of debt for no reason.

Finally, if you want to work in NYC, than either go to a NYC school (pref NYU/CLS) or a t-14. Outside of that, Fordham > Cardozo > Brooklyn > NYLS and you need a large scholarship at those skills to attend. Don't ruin your financial future, sit out a few cycles, improve your English, destroy the LSAT and profit.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby Tls2016 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:34 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:
cbbinnyc wrote:Disclaimer, I am a 0L, but my sense is that a legal education would be a real slog for somebody who doesn't have an excellent command of English, no matter what school you go to. That said, you did manage a 3.89 at a US university ... did you take many humanities classes with difficult reading loads?

Given your goals, NYLS is the better choice, I think. Very very few people from WCL go to New York after graduation.

That said, the real answer is: neither. Those schools will both give you a slim chance at decent legal employment in NYC. Also, what do you mean when you say "the financial debt does not seem to be a main burden"? Do you mean that your family will be able to pay your tuition so debt is not an issue? Either way, it's not a good idea to go to these schools, but if are taking on debt to go to these schools it is an especially bad decision. Sounds like you might get no money from WCL, and 15k from NYLS is essentially nothing. You would be taking on substantial debt with poor employment prospects.

Retake the LSAT, get into a better school, improve your English, don't waste that GPA. I know you already preempted this sort of answer, but the reason people in this forum will give you that answer is because it is good advice.


I extremely appreciate your advice that really helps me significantly. My dad is a businessman in my home country; thus paying tuition is not really challenging for him. As mentioned previously, becoming a lawyer is my dream, and I do not mind working hard to get a chance even it's very slim. I have already heard mixed information about NYLS, but just want to confirm how bad is it. My goal is not working in big law firm because I understand my ability and my English. Is it possible if I can find a job with 60k salary from NYLS in NYC ?
Sincerely,


NYLS is a terrible school that has been sued by former students for fraud. I can't recommend that you go there. It is not likely you would get a job in NYC for $60,000 from that school.

As for your other choices, I don't know what WCL is, but if you want to work in NYC, you should go to school in NYC.

You shouldn't waste your GPA on a terrible school. Even if your parents can pay for it easily, it won't be easy for you to get a job from that school.

You might consider contacting practicing lawyers from your home country and ask them for advice about being a real estate lawyer in the city.
Last edited by Tls2016 on Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby cbbinnyc » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:38 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:
cbbinnyc wrote:Disclaimer, I am a 0L, but my sense is that a legal education would be a real slog for somebody who doesn't have an excellent command of English, no matter what school you go to. That said, you did manage a 3.89 at a US university ... did you take many humanities classes with difficult reading loads?

Given your goals, NYLS is the better choice, I think. Very very few people from WCL go to New York after graduation.

That said, the real answer is: neither. Those schools will both give you a slim chance at decent legal employment in NYC. Also, what do you mean when you say "the financial debt does not seem to be a main burden"? Do you mean that your family will be able to pay your tuition so debt is not an issue? Either way, it's not a good idea to go to these schools, but if are taking on debt to go to these schools it is an especially bad decision. Sounds like you might get no money from WCL, and 15k from NYLS is essentially nothing. You would be taking on substantial debt with poor employment prospects.

Retake the LSAT, get into a better school, improve your English, don't waste that GPA. I know you already preempted this sort of answer, but the reason people in this forum will give you that answer is because it is good advice.


I extremely appreciate your advice that really helps me significantly. My dad is a businessman in my home country; thus paying tuition is not really challenging for him. As mentioned previously, becoming a lawyer is my dream, and I do not mind working hard to get a chance even it's very slim. I have already heard mixed information about NYLS, but just want to confirm how bad is it. My goal is not working in big law firm because I understand my ability and my English. Is it possible if I can find a job with 60k salary from NYLS in NYC ?
Sincerely,


Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

I'm not sure how much research you've done at this point, but you should peruse the Law School Transparency reports for the schools you are considering (lstscorereports.com). It will give you a better idea of what kinds of jobs people get out of school. NYLS has a 42.9% score and WCL has a slightly better, but still lackluster, 54.6% score (that's the percentage of graduates who have jobs that require or favor a JD degree 9 months after graduation). However, if you want a job in NYC, I still have a feeling that NYLS is a marginally better choice.

The median pay (keep in mind that this stat is sort of misleading) for people who reported their salary from WCL is about $62k, and for NYLS it's $70k, but bear in mind this is only the median for the people who (a) got jobs and (b) reported their salaries.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby cbbinnyc » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:43 pm

lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.



Also ... this.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:49 pm

lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

Thanks for your time for reading and comment . It took me 4 months to prepare LSAt and it seems I have already maxed out my ability . I understood that getting J.d required jobs from those schools are challenging, but I just want to try it . I understood retake the Lsat is the best option , but I want to attend law school this year.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby lymenheimer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:51 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

Thanks for your time for reading and comment . It took me 4 months to prepare LSAt and it seems I have already maxed out my ability . I understood that getting J.d required jobs from those schools are challenging, but I just want to try it . I understood retake the Lsat is the best option , but I want to attend law school this year.


That depends on how you prepared. Did you do as some of the LSAT prep suggests in the LSAT Prep and Discussion sub-forum?

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:56 pm

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Last edited by dangthinh121 on Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:59 pm

Tls2016 wrote:
dangthinh121 wrote:
cbbinnyc wrote:Disclaimer, I am a 0L, but my sense is that a legal education would be a real slog for somebody who doesn't have an excellent command of English, no matter what school you go to. That said, you did manage a 3.89 at a US university ... did you take many humanities classes with difficult reading loads?

Given your goals, NYLS is the better choice, I think. Very very few people from WCL go to New York after graduation.

That said, the real answer is: neither. Those schools will both give you a slim chance at decent legal employment in NYC. Also, what do you mean when you say "the financial debt does not seem to be a main burden"? Do you mean that your family will be able to pay your tuition so debt is not an issue? Either way, it's not a good idea to go to these schools, but if are taking on debt to go to these schools it is an especially bad decision. Sounds like you might get no money from WCL, and 15k from NYLS is essentially nothing. You would be taking on substantial debt with poor employment prospects.

Retake the LSAT, get into a better school, improve your English, don't waste that GPA. I know you already preempted this sort of answer, but the reason people in this forum will give you that answer is because it is good advice.


I extremely appreciate your advice that really helps me significantly. My dad is a businessman in my home country; thus paying tuition is not really challenging for him. As mentioned previously, becoming a lawyer is my dream, and I do not mind working hard to get a chance even it's very slim. I have already heard mixed information about NYLS, but just want to confirm how bad is it. My goal is not working in big law firm because I understand my ability and my English. Is it possible if I can find a job with 60k salary from NYLS in NYC ?
Sincerely,


NYLS is a terrible school that has been sued by former students for fraud. I can't recommend that you go there. It is not likely you would get a job in NYC for $60,000 from that school.

As for your other choices, I don't know what WCL is, but if you want to work in NYC, you should go to school in NYC.

You shouldn't waste your GPA on a terrible school. Even if your parents can pay for it easily, it won't be easy for you to get a job from that school.

You might consider contacting practicing lawyers from your home country and ask them for advice about being a real estate lawyer in the city.

It seems real estate will be more appropriate to me due to language barrier. WCL Stands for Washington college of law . It's a part of American university . It ranked 71 in the nation . However, my dream is living in nyc, so I don't know whether it will give me any advantage compared to Nyls

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:02 pm

lymenheimer wrote:
dangthinh121 wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

Thanks for your time for reading and comment . It took me 4 months to prepare LSAt and it seems I have already maxed out my ability . I understood that getting J.d required jobs from those schools are challenging, but I just want to try it . I understood retake the Lsat is the best option , but I want to attend law school this year.


That depends on how you prepared. Did you do as some of the LSAT prep suggests in the LSAT Prep and Discussion sub-forum?

I did prepare it intenly in 4 months . 4 hours per day within 4 months. Frankly speaking, I scored 128 in the first practice test, and the real is 156. I have already improved 28 points

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby lymenheimer » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:05 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:I did prepare it intenly in 4 months . 4 hours per day within 4 months. Frankly speaking, I scored 128 in the first practice test, and the real is 156. I have already improved 28 points


Well, unfortunately your admissions chances and job prospects aren't decided based on your improvement. But do what you want.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby mvp99 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:08 pm

Troll check

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:12 pm

mvp99 wrote:Troll check

It's not a troll . It's hard to believe, but it's true

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:20 pm

mvp99 wrote:Troll check

This was my instinct at first as well, although I know Nony doesn't like preemptive troll crying so I figured I would see how it developed

For what it's worth, now that the OP instantly said "Nope, not a troll!" I have 100% confidence that this is, in fact, a troll job

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby heythatslife » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:01 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

Thanks for your time for reading and comment . It took me 4 months to prepare LSAt and it seems I have already maxed out my ability . I understood that getting J.d required jobs from those schools are challenging, but I just want to try it . I understood retake the Lsat is the best option , but I want to attend law school this year.


1. Is there actually any pressing reason for you to attend law school this year, other than "I just want to"?

2. "I just want to try it" is a terrible attitude to a decision that will cost you three years and hundreds and thousands of dollars, at the end of which you will likely be left with no legal job from a school like NYLS.

3. That 3.89 GPA is too good to waste. You have not nearly exhausted your potential when all you've done is 4 months' preparation for LSAT and a single take at 156.

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby dangthinh121 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:14 pm

heythatslife wrote:
dangthinh121 wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

Thanks for your time for reading and comment . It took me 4 months to prepare LSAt and it seems I have already maxed out my ability . I understood that getting J.d required jobs from those schools are challenging, but I just want to try it . I understood retake the Lsat is the best option , but I want to attend law school this year.


1. Is there actually any pressing reason for you to attend law school this year, other than "I just want to"?

2. "I just want to try it" is a terrible attitude to a decision that will cost you three years and hundreds and thousands of dollars, at the end of which you will likely be left with no legal job from a school like NYLS.

3. That 3.89 GPA is too good to waste. You have not nearly exhausted your potential when all you've done is 4 months' preparation for LSAT and a single take at 156.

You have made a very great point in the term that 4 months is not enough to maximize the potential of Lsat score . However , I really want to go to law school this year . I also heard a lot of positive comments about Nyls . I just need to know whether the advantage of location outweighs the rank in legal field . Thanks

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Re: Choosing law school for non-native speaker. WCL vs NYLS

Postby squirtlesquad14 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:34 pm

dangthinh121 wrote:
heythatslife wrote:
dangthinh121 wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:If you are willing to work hard to become a lawyer, then you should be will do the easiest thing you can do to improve your chances of being a lawyer: studying for the LSAT properly and getting a score that will get you into stronger schools.

Thanks for your time for reading and comment . It took me 4 months to prepare LSAt and it seems I have already maxed out my ability . I understood that getting J.d required jobs from those schools are challenging, but I just want to try it . I understood retake the Lsat is the best option , but I want to attend law school this year.


1. Is there actually any pressing reason for you to attend law school this year, other than "I just want to"?

2. "I just want to try it" is a terrible attitude to a decision that will cost you three years and hundreds and thousands of dollars, at the end of which you will likely be left with no legal job from a school like NYLS.

3. That 3.89 GPA is too good to waste. You have not nearly exhausted your potential when all you've done is 4 months' preparation for LSAT and a single take at 156.

You have made a very great point in the term that 4 months is not enough to maximize the potential of Lsat score . However , I really want to go to law school this year . I also heard a lot of positive comments about Nyls . I just need to know whether the advantage of location outweighs the rank in legal field . Thanks


Once you get out of the T14, location matters a lot more than rank. But what matters more than both of those is employment numbers -- which aren't that good for either NYLS or WCL. Median salaries are also not a very good indicator because lawyer salaries tend to be very high or very low, which ends up having a decent looking median, but that is far from the reality for most grads. You can probably break $100k if you are in the top 10% or so of your class, but if you are at or below the median of your class, you are going to be hard pressed to find a job that pays $60k.



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