If I'm not interested in Big Law, how important is it to go to a T14? Forum

[PwantsaJD]

Basically my reason for wanting to go into law is to help individuals in need. I'm not interested in helping large organizations in their legal matters, and I'm not looking to work 80+ hours/week to make 160k out of law school... TBH the amount of money I'll make is something I really couldn't care less about.

I'll be applying for the 2017 cycle and am just wondering because my LSAT scores on prep tests right now are really bad (although I will of course do my best to improve them) I signed up for the December test and just started studying for it last week. I think to get into a T14 I'll need a 170+ to compensate for my low 3.2 GPA and tbh IDK if I'll be able to get that no matter how hard I study right now. My reason for wanting to practice law is not motivated by money but because I believe I'd enjoy the type of work, helping people, I hope it would be a field where I'm surrounded by other smart and motivated professionals and it would be a job that I would find intellectually stimulating.

I know some people here may say that you shouldn't go to law school if you won't get into big law because then you will be in huge debt. But actually I will not be in any debt, I'm in the lucky position where I've got some money saved and my parents have promised to pay fully for my education as well as living expenses (even if I don't get any scholarships). I just gradauted undergrad this May and by the time I apply to law schools for the 2017 cycle I'll have some work experience.

The types of law concentrations I'm interested in so far are:
- criminal law
- health law (client and ethics side)
- equal Justice Law

[Fiero85]

Congrats on saving up some money and making the good choice to get some work experience before applying to LS.

Don't waste the funding that you are fortunate to have by taking it easy on the LSAT. There is no point in speculating, doubting or thinking negatively about your potential. The LSAT, like many things, has to be pursued to the fullest before any reasonable projections can be made. So shoot for 170-180 and roll with it. You can't know what your peak is until you find it. The good news: many people, myself included, improved their diagnostic score (from before studying at all) by 10 or more points.

I'm not sure if you mean like public interest institutional jobs or plaintiff side or what by "helping people in need" within criminal/health/equal justice etc., but make sure that you understand that the far majority of lawyers work for the opposite of this (for the side that already has money). Do some research on the types of things that do and do not require a JD that you want to pursue, because you're preemptively eliminating most JD required work. You may have been speaking generally for the sake of brevity, but I just mean to point out that the side of the law you hinted at is smaller and takes more planning to land in. The "helping those in need" side can be just as competitive and hard to find employment is as anything.

That said, if you think your intended career requires a JD, I think you should aim for a T14 because your parents are willing to support you and T14s lead the way on employment of any and all varieties. Unless your parents are super wealthy, it would be nice to keep costs down too, but costs come second after reducing the risk of unemployment, which is real even at good schools.

Also, if you do plan to really commit to the public interest side, check out loan forgiveness programs. Doesn't hurt to have that as a backup if your parents cant or don't want to pay for your degree at some point. Some of them can be pretty good for people with public interest side (low) incomes.

Please ignore speciality rankings. Don't be tempted by schools with "good criminal/health/equal Justice Law" programs. There are no specialized schools, just quality and geography.

Speaking of geography, you should weigh that, just as everyone else should. If you know where you would like to work, verify that the school(s) you have in mind can actually get you there. If you don't know where you want to work: aim high. Only about a dozen schools in the country have even a semblance of national placement power.

For now, all you can do is crush the LSAT and build your resume. I recommend Powerscore and Manhattan materials for the LSAT piece.

Good luck!

[PwantsaJD]

Congrats on saving up some money and making the good choice to get some work experience before applying to LS.

Don't waste the funding that you are fortunate to have by taking it easy on the LSAT. There is no point in speculating, doubting or thinking negatively about your potential. The LSAT, like many things, has to be pursued to the fullest before any reasonable projections can be made. So shoot for 170-180 and roll with it. You can't know what your peak is until you find it. The good news: many people, myself included, improved their diagnostic score (from before studying at all) by 10 or more points.

I'm not sure if you mean like public interest institutional jobs or plaintiff side or what by "helping people in need" within criminal/health/equal justice etc., but make sure that you understand that the far majority of lawyers work for the opposite of this (for the side that already has money). Do some research on the types of things that do and do not require a JD that you want to pursue, because you're preemptively eliminating most JD required work. You may have been speaking generally for the sake of brevity, but I just mean to point out that the side of the law you hinted at is smaller and takes more planning to land in. The "helping those in need" side can be just as competitive and hard to find employment is as anything.

That said, if you think your intended career requires a JD, I think you should aim for a T14 because your parents are willing to support you and T14s lead the way on employment of any and all varieties. Unless your parents are super wealthy, it would be nice to keep costs down too, but costs come second after reducing the risk of unemployment, which is real even at good schools.

Also, if you do plan to really commit to the public interest side, check out loan forgiveness programs. Doesn't hurt to have that as a backup if your parents cant or don't want to pay for your degree at some point. Some of them can be pretty good for people with public interest side (low) incomes.

Please ignore speciality rankings. Don't be tempted by schools with "good criminal/health/equal justice law" programs. There are no specialized schools, just quality and geography.

Speaking of geography, you should weigh that, just as everyone else should. If you know where you would like to work, verify that the school(s) you have in mind can actually get you there. If you don't know where you want to work: aim high. Only about a dozen schools in the country have even a semblance of national placement power.

For now, all you can do is crush the LSAT and build your resume. I recommend Powerscore and Manhattan materials for the LSAT piece.

Good luck!

Thanks for that great reply. I'll certainly try my best for the LSAT.

It's true I'm not completely sure about many of the different legal careers yet. But when browsing this thread on these forums about the typical day of a lawyer certain positions were extremely appealing to me such as those of prosecutor, public defense and public interest, district attorney.

[Johann]

sounds like you have a plan. study your best, take the LSAT 2-3 times, and go to the best ranked school in the region. always the caution that not everyone gets legal jobs from every school, but you def don't need to go T-14 for your goals. Second tier should be fine.

[nealric]

Keep in mind that any paid public interest job is going to be competitive. Also, T14 schools generally have great loan repayment assistance programs, so the cost may be moot.

[IAmLawSchool]

I'm not interested in helping large organizations in their legal matters

Well, it is something the large law firms are definitely interested in. Even the vast majority of people practicing Environmental Law are practicing Corporate Law and defending polluters. Just a thought.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Wrt criminal law, generally it doesn't matter where you go to school as much as what you do while you're there. Your best bet is interning for the various offices you'd like to work in, and getting as much practical experience as possible. There may be a few offices out there that favor the T14, but any DA/PD office is going to have lots of local school grads, regardless of what those schools are. So ideally, you can identify where in the country you want to be, go to school there for cheap/free, and get lots of hands-on experience during school through internships and clinics.

It's probably worth keeping in mind that some/many PDs' offices out there won't hire someone who has prosecution experience (though the reverse isn't true). It's not universal, but it's a sentiment that's out there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "equal Justice Law" - if it's something like legal aid (landlord/tenant, family relations, social security etc.) then the above advice will probably hold true. If you mean something like the ACLU, your school pedigree is likely to be much more important and you may want to go to a more national school like the T14.

[star fox]

Most pi people do oci anyways so consider that.

[Redamon1]

Good for you for thinking ahead. My two thoughts are:

1. Focus just on the test right now, and assess your options afterwards. No need to worry about much else right now. Just remember that this test is LEARNABLE. Some of us have to work like crazy to climb up that curve, but it can be done. See the LSAT forum for inspirational stories. You can do this!

2. Do yourself a favor and postpone your LSAT test if you are not in the ballpark with your PTs as the test approaches. It can take some people 6 months or more to be ready. Don't waste an attempt "just to see." Especially if you struggle with the test, you'll need the full set of well-prepared attempts LSAC allows you to maximize your potential (3 tries).

Good luck!

[eagle2a]

I'd still go to the best school you get into at a decent price. Don't go to a T2 if you want better than a 50% chance of getting a job as an actual lawyer

[Nebby]

Keep in mind that any paid public interest job is going to be competitive. Also, T14 schools generally have great loan repayment assistance programs, so the cost may be moot.

Underrated post. This is an important point. Pay sticker at T14, cop that PI, never have have to pay it back.

[jbagelboy]

Keep in mind that any paid public interest job is going to be competitive. Also, T14 schools generally have great loan repayment assistance programs, so the cost may be moot.

Underrated post. This is an important point. Pay sticker at T14, cop that PI, never have have to pay it back.

Not a good plan IMO. Keep debt low regardless of career objective, especially for lower earners.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[cmac2210]

I'm a paralegal in a government office and one of our attorneys attended the unranked Oklahoma City school of law, which is 20 minutes from the ranked U of Oklahoma school of law. Some went to tier 2 law schools and most went to tier 3 law schools. Yet there they all were plugging away as attorneys in government JD required jobs.

[Troianii]

Keep in mind that any paid public interest job is going to be competitive. Also, T14 schools generally have great loan repayment assistance programs, so the cost may be moot.

Underrated post. This is an important point. Pay sticker at T14, cop that PI, never have have to pay it back.

Not a good plan IMO. Keep debt low regardless of career objective, especially for lower earners.

Yeah, I'm with you on this. A t14 at sticker price is just not reasonable for someone looking to earn 40-50k/yr. I know it's not about the money, I don't care so much about it myself, but there is a certain amount you want to live comfortably. For myself, compensation becomes increasingly less important once I pass 60k. I don't care what anyone says, unless you're loving in an expensive part of the city, 60k is good enough to live comfortably and pay loans (if you keep them small). But taking on over 200 in loans and earning 40k a year? Expect to live like an undergrad (on Ramen in a cruddy apartment) for the foreseeable future, unless you come from money. In which case... hell, good for you to use daddy's money to enable you to help those in need. And no, I'm not being fececious. Good on you.

[Tiago Splitter]

Keep in mind that any paid public interest job is going to be competitive. Also, T14 schools generally have great loan repayment assistance programs, so the cost may be moot.

Underrated post. This is an important point. Pay sticker at T14, cop that PI, never have have to pay it back.

Not a good plan IMO. Keep debt low regardless of career objective, especially for lower earners.

Yeah, I'm with you on this. A t14 at sticker price is just not reasonable for someone looking to earn 40-50k/yr. I know it's not about the money, I don't care so much about it myself, but there is a certain amount you want to live comfortably. For myself, compensation becomes increasingly less important once I pass 60k. I don't care what anyone says, unless you're loving in an expensive part of the city, 60k is good enough to live comfortably and pay loans (if you keep them small). But taking on over 200 in loans and earning 40k a year? Expect to live like an undergrad (on Ramen in a cruddy apartment) for the foreseeable future, unless you come from money. In which case... hell, good for you to use daddy's money to enable you to help those in need. And no, I'm not being fececious. Good on you.

Not that I disagree but Nebby is talking about taking on 200k debt and using LRAP/PSLF to avoid ever having to pay back a cent.

OP it sounds like you're letting the tail wag the dog a little here. Study your ass off and get the highest possible LSAT and then see what the options look like. Don't start crossing off options because the LSAT study is off to a slow start.

[Nebby]

Keep in mind that any paid public interest job is going to be competitive. Also, T14 schools generally have great loan repayment assistance programs, so the cost may be moot.

Underrated post. This is an important point. Pay sticker at T14, cop that PI, never have have to pay it back.

Not a good plan IMO. Keep debt low regardless of career objective, especially for lower earners.

Yeah, I'm with you on this. A t14 at sticker price is just not reasonable for someone looking to earn 40-50k/yr. I know it's not about the money, I don't care so much about it myself, but there is a certain amount you want to live comfortably. For myself, compensation becomes increasingly less important once I pass 60k. I don't care what anyone says, unless you're loving in an expensive part of the city, 60k is good enough to live comfortably and pay loans (if you keep them small). But taking on over 200 in loans and earning 40k a year? Expect to live like an undergrad (on Ramen in a cruddy apartment) for the foreseeable future, unless you come from money. In which case... hell, good for you to use daddy's money to enable you to help those in need. And no, I'm not being fececious. Good on you.

Not that I disagree but Nebby is talking about taking on 200k debt and using LRAP/PSLF to avoid ever having to pay back a cent.

OP it sounds like you're letting the tail wag the dog a little here. Study your ass off and get the highest possible LSAT and then see what the options look like. Don't start crossing off options because the LSAT study is off to a slow start.

Yeah, I should have been more specific.

[seashell.economy]

I'm a paralegal in a government office and one of our attorneys attended the unranked Oklahoma City school of law, which is 20 minutes from the ranked U of Oklahoma school of law. Some went to tier 2 law schools and most went to tier 3 law schools. Yet there they all were plugging away as attorneys in government JD required jobs.

I see a lot of successful attorneys who went to low (or very low) ranked schools who are working downtown and making 100,000+ (I live in a large city and work in the legal field). And then I come on TLS and enter a different reality, where you must get a 170+ and go to a T6+ school to succeed. I enjoy TLS and it has definitely pushed me to do better on the LSAT and apply to T14's, but clearly that is not the only way...

[A. Nony Mouse]

I'm a paralegal in a government office and one of our attorneys attended the unranked Oklahoma City school of law, which is 20 minutes from the ranked U of Oklahoma school of law. Some went to tier 2 law schools and most went to tier 3 law schools. Yet there they all were plugging away as attorneys in government JD required jobs.

I see a lot of successful attorneys who went to low (or very low) ranked schools who are working downtown and making 100,000+ (I live in a large city and work in the legal field). And then I come on TLS and enter a different reality, where you must get a 170+ and go to a T6+ school to succeed. I enjoy TLS and it has definitely pushed me to do better on the LSAT and apply to T14's, but clearly that is not the only way...

How old are those attorneys? When did they graduate? How many people were in their graduating classes and how many out of those graduating classes got biglaw jobs? How many grads from those schools got biglaw jobs in the last 3 graduating classes? (Assuming by working downtown/making $100k+ you mean biglaw.)

Of course not everyone who works in biglaw went to a T14 - plenty of people from all kinds of schools end up there. The question is how much a given person is willing to pay in return for what likelihood of getting a given job. TLS is a particularly risk-averse crowd, has a lot of people going for biglaw, and does sometimes have an overly rigid view of career paths. That said, I don't think anyone says you have to go to a T14 (or T6+) to succeed, just that depending on what your definition of success is, it will maximize your chances.

Since the OP isn't interested in biglaw this is moot for them, of course, and many people have said no, they don't have to go to a T14.

[Jay2716]

I'm a paralegal in a government office and one of our attorneys attended the unranked Oklahoma City school of law, which is 20 minutes from the ranked U of Oklahoma school of law. Some went to tier 2 law schools and most went to tier 3 law schools. Yet there they all were plugging away as attorneys in government JD required jobs.

I see a lot of successful attorneys who went to low (or very low) ranked schools who are working downtown and making 100,000+ (I live in a large city and work in the legal field). And then I come on TLS and enter a different reality, where you must get a 170+ and go to a T6+ school to succeed. I enjoy TLS and it has definitely pushed me to do better on the LSAT and apply to T14's, but clearly that is not the only way...

But you only see the successful grads from those schools, because only the successful ones survive long enough to be seen. The data tells us that those TTT grads making $100k are exceptions. You never see all the failures because they're not visible in the same way.

[Troianii]

I'm a paralegal in a government office and one of our attorneys attended the unranked Oklahoma City school of law, which is 20 minutes from the ranked U of Oklahoma school of law. Some went to tier 2 law schools and most went to tier 3 law schools. Yet there they all were plugging away as attorneys in government JD required jobs.

I see a lot of successful attorneys who went to low (or very low) ranked schools who are working downtown and making 100,000+ (I live in a large city and work in the legal field). And then I come on TLS and enter a different reality, where you must get a 170+ and go to a T6+ school to succeed. I enjoy TLS and it has definitely pushed me to do better on the LSAT and apply to T14's, but clearly that is not the only way...

How old are those attorneys? When did they graduate? How many people were in their graduating classes and how many out of those graduating classes got biglaw jobs? How many grads from those schools got biglaw jobs in the last 3 graduating classes? (Assuming by working downtown/making $100k+ you mean biglaw.)

Of course not everyone who works in biglaw went to a T14 - plenty of people from all kinds of schools end up there. The question is how much a given person is willing to pay in return for what likelihood of getting a given job. TLS is a particularly risk-averse crowd, has a lot of people going for biglaw, and does sometimes have an overly rigid view of career paths. That said, I don't think anyone says you have to go to a T14 (or T6+) to succeed, just that depending on what your definition of success is, it will maximize your chances.

Since the OP isn't interested in biglaw this is moot for them, of course, and many people have said no, they don't have to go to a T14.

I think the driving point here should be that if (drawing some of these figures out of thin air to make a point) 25% of lawyers working downtown and making the big bucks didn't go to a T14 law school. Forget the age part. How many law schools are there? 200+? So 14/200+ law schools make up the vast majority of those making that money, meaning that the portion of that 25% which is from your law school is likely pretty slim.

There are some obvious exceptions for regional factors. The main one that I'm aware of is BC, when has been hovering around the mid 20s to low 30s in rankings, but it absolutely dominate the Boston legal market, offering great chances of securing employment and a good salary - *in the Boston area*. But apart from these regional exceptions, which are a good thing for people without the T14 scores to be aware of, there isn't much great chance of making that kind of money out of law school. From what I've heard, apart from going to a regional powerhouse like BC, you can give yourself a pretty good leg up by dominating your law school. One of my buddies could have gone to a law school ranked in the low 20s, but instead chose one ranked in the upper 80s. Part of his reasoning was that the school he chose still had decent employment prospects, but that it'd be far easier for him to be top of his class (or close to it). I'm not looking to go that route, but its a risky route that some take and - based on what I've heard - CAN pay of off if you can do it.

[Troianii]

I'm a paralegal in a government office and one of our attorneys attended the unranked Oklahoma City school of law, which is 20 minutes from the ranked U of Oklahoma school of law. Some went to tier 2 law schools and most went to tier 3 law schools. Yet there they all were plugging away as attorneys in government JD required jobs.

I see a lot of successful attorneys who went to low (or very low) ranked schools who are working downtown and making 100,000+ (I live in a large city and work in the legal field). And then I come on TLS and enter a different reality, where you must get a 170+ and go to a T6+ school to succeed. I enjoy TLS and it has definitely pushed me to do better on the LSAT and apply to T14's, but clearly that is not the only way...

But you only see the successful grads from those schools, because only the successful ones survive long enough to be seen. The data tells us that those TTT grads making $100k are exceptions. You never see all the failures because they're not visible in the same way.

+1