Fordham Law employment prospects Forum

[kapenak]

Hey guys

What do you guys think of employment prospects for going to Fordham Law School? I am considering applying there and I have an engineering background (BS+Masters), so I'll be looking to work in IP after law school. Would my employment chances be good coming out of law school in a good firm? I don't quite have the grades for NYU/Columbia, but would still like to end up in NYC to work. Basically, I want to know if it worth for me to apply there.

Thanks!

[Leonardo DiCaprio]

top 10% = job
top 30% = maybe job
top 50% = maybe really shitty job
bottom 50% = fucked for life

[ig88250]

top 10% = job
top 30% = maybe job
top 50% = maybe really shitty job
bottom 50% = fucked for life

A little extreme, but not totally off base. Instead of guessing I will post the facts from LST:

of Fordham's 2014 grads:

67.8% had 'full time, long term' jobs (jobs lasting more than 1 year)

This number is slightly inflated as 7.2% were 'school funded' jobs (which are usually full time lower paying jobs that last just over a year)

35.3% of graduates had a job at a firm with 101 or more attorneys within 10 months of graduation
14.9% of graduates had a job at a firm with 2-100 attorneys (these tend to be lower paying - think in the 60 to 80k/yr range)
3.2% had a clerkship at the Federal or State level
11.1 % were working on public service or government jobs
23.6% were either unemployed or working only part time jobs.

All things being equal, it would appear your shot at 'Big Law" would require being in the top 1/3. Of course, your science background and interest in IP might give you a slight boost - but you would still need to do well. Of course, it is important to remember that no grades can provide a guarantee of employment.

I think the standard TLS advice here is wise. If you could go with no or minimal debt and you know for sure you want to be a lawyer for the right reasons and you are able and willing to take a financial risk, then you should bust your butt to maximize your LSAT score and scholarship opportunity. If your GPA and LSAT are good enough you might get scholarships that can mitigate the risk and cost. COL in NY is super high, and that should be factored into your willingness to take on debt/risk. Almost anywhere at sticker price is unwise. Sticker price at Fordham is probably beyond unwise as with COL it could be a quarter of a million dollars in debt.

What are your stats? Have you taken the LSAT? Would you be willing to go to Law School outside of NY if the school was a T14 with good NY placement? Do you have any savings? How will you be paying for school? All of these questions will play a role in your decision.

[TheSpanishMain]

If you don't quite have Columbia numbers, what about the lower t14? Cornell places very well in New York.

[kapenak]

top 10% = job
top 30% = maybe job
top 50% = maybe really shitty job
bottom 50% = fucked for life

A little extreme, but not totally off base. Instead of guessing I will post the facts from LST:

of Fordham's 2014 grads:

67.8% had 'full time, long term' jobs (jobs lasting more than 1 year)

This number is slightly inflated as 7.2% were 'school funded' jobs (which are usually full time lower paying jobs that last just over a year)

35.3% of graduates had a job at a firm with 101 or more attorneys within 10 months of graduation
14.9% of graduates had a job at a firm with 2-100 attorneys (these tend to be lower paying - think in the 60 to 80k/yr range)
3.2% had a clerkship at the Federal or State level
11.1 % were working on public service or government jobs
23.6% were either unemployed or working only part time jobs.

All things being equal, it would appear your shot at 'Big Law" would require being in the top 1/3. Of course, your science background and interest in IP might give you a slight boost - but you would still need to do well. Of course, it is important to remember that no grades can provide a guarantee of employment.

I think the standard TLS advice here is wise. If you could go with no or minimal debt and you know for sure you want to be a lawyer for the right reasons and you are able and willing to take a financial risk, then you should bust your butt to maximize your LSAT score and scholarship opportunity. If your GPA and LSAT are good enough you might get scholarships that can mitigate the risk and cost. COL in NY is super high, and that should be factored into your willingness to take on debt/risk. Almost anywhere at sticker price is unwise. Sticker price at Fordham is probably beyond unwise as with COL it could be a quarter of a million dollars in debt.

What are your stats? Have you taken the LSAT? Would you be willing to go to Law School outside of NY if the school was a T14 with good NY placement? Do you have any savings? How will you be paying for school? All of these questions will play a role in your decision.

Thanks for the very informative response.

I have a rather low GPA (3.1), albeit from a very rigorous engineering program from Cornell, where I also got my masters. Also my LSAT is a bit low (162), though I'm retaking it in December and am studying for full time and hope to improve to 167-169ish. I'm going to apply early to some schools including Maryland, UNC, Boston College with my old score (162) in the upcoming weeks just for backup, but was also thinking of applying to Fordham (maybe I could get into their PT program and then eventually transfer to their FT program??).

TBH most T14's are probably out of my reach unless I score 170+ in December, but if my score does improve I really want to get into GW, which would put me in a very good spot for jobs after graduation. However, I always have to have backup incase my score doesn't improve to where I want it to be, so thats where my whole dilemma comes in...

I figured with a strong engineering background and grad school, getting a dope job at Fordham wouldn't be that hard since it is in NYC, but perhaps I am mistaken??

[jbagelboy]

top 10% = job
top 30% = maybe job
top 50% = maybe really shitty job
bottom 50% = fucked for life

A little extreme, but not totally off base. Instead of guessing I will post the facts from LST:

of Fordham's 2014 grads:

67.8% had 'full time, long term' jobs (jobs lasting more than 1 year)

This number is slightly inflated as 7.2% were 'school funded' jobs (which are usually full time lower paying jobs that last just over a year)

35.3% of graduates had a job at a firm with 101 or more attorneys within 10 months of graduation
14.9% of graduates had a job at a firm with 2-100 attorneys (these tend to be lower paying - think in the 60 to 80k/yr range)
3.2% had a clerkship at the Federal or State level
11.1 % were working on public service or government jobs
23.6% were either unemployed or working only part time jobs.

All things being equal, it would appear your shot at 'Big Law" would require being in the top 1/3. Of course, your science background and interest in IP might give you a slight boost - but you would still need to do well. Of course, it is important to remember that no grades can provide a guarantee of employment.

I think the standard TLS advice here is wise. If you could go with no or minimal debt and you know for sure you want to be a lawyer for the right reasons and you are able and willing to take a financial risk, then you should bust your butt to maximize your LSAT score and scholarship opportunity. If your GPA and LSAT are good enough you might get scholarships that can mitigate the risk and cost. COL in NY is super high, and that should be factored into your willingness to take on debt/risk. Almost anywhere at sticker price is unwise. Sticker price at Fordham is probably beyond unwise as with COL it could be a quarter of a million dollars in debt.

What are your stats? Have you taken the LSAT? Would you be willing to go to Law School outside of NY if the school was a T14 with good NY placement? Do you have any savings? How will you be paying for school? All of these questions will play a role in your decision.

Thanks for the very informative response.

I have a rather low GPA (3.1), albeit from a very rigorous engineering program from Cornell, where I also got my masters. Also my LSAT is a bit low (162), though I'm retaking it in December and am studying for full time and hope to improve to 167-169ish. I'm going to apply early to some schools including Maryland, UNC, Boston College with my old score (162) in the upcoming weeks just for backup, but was also thinking of applying to Fordham (maybe I could get into their PT program and then eventually transfer to their FT program??).

TBH most T14's are probably out of my reach unless I score 170+ in December, but if my score does improve I really want to get into GW, which would put me in a very good spot for jobs after graduation. However, I always have to have backup incase my score doesn't improve to where I want it to be, so thats where my whole dilemma comes in...

I figured with a strong engineering background and grad school, getting a dope job at Fordham wouldn't be that hard since it is in NYC, but perhaps I am mistaken??

Why not become an engineer

Or do just about anything with your two stem degrees from cornell besides law school

[kapenak]

^^^

$$$$$$$$$$$$

[ig88250]

If you have a degree and your primary purpose of going to law school is $$$$, then you need to stop.

There is only 1 reason to go to law school. Period. ONLY go to law school if you want to be a lawyer. Not if you want to be a lawyer to make $$$$ - but if you want to be a lawyer even if you were going to be paid only $50-70k/year. Why? Because a vast majority of lawyers are making $50-70k/year. They aren't making more than engineers, they aren't making more than science majors.

There is a small percentage of the top schools that get a job right out of law school making 6 figures. From those, a small percentage make it in that environment more than 3-5 years. If you want to be a lawyer for $$$$$ - then going to Fordham is a very, very bad bet.

If you want to go to Fordham to be a lawyer because you want to be a lawyer - and you have an unrelated goal of also getting a job making good money - then go for it. Real life isn't like USA's "Suits". It isn't the same law market of the 80's. Lawyers don't get rich at any rate that would be higher than Engineers.

Why don't you get an MBA? That is a better bet for making a lot of $$$$ than law school.

[fjord92]

Throwaway account.

If you're in it for the money then consider a few things:

1. Money on the table from application
Based on your previous posts, you applied late in the cycle and did it with an LSAT score that does not maximize your financial aid. Going in as a October applicant with a 3.1/173 will have drastically different results than a February applicant with a 3.1/162. Don't attend law school until you have minimized the cost/downside of it.

2. Underestimating the engineering degree
I'm not sure what you majored in at Cornell, but even the CivEs or BMEs where starting pay/finding a relevant job were rougher turned out fine. I remember it was a struggle in those areas to find well-paying jobs initially, but people turned out pretty well after either gaining experience or broadening their search.

Broadening your search opens up many higher paying alternatives if that is your sole focus. For example, consulting firms such as Accenture started undergrad engineers at $74k + signing bonus + annual 401k contribution when I was there. Masters degree holders easily clear $78k+. You can make consultant within 3 years and hop to another firm to boost your earnings to > $100k. The senior levels in consulting firms pull in $250k+ and higher as you climb the ladder. This is just one example. All done without debt, significant risk, and of course 3 years of foregone earnings.

Option value:
The engineering degree + work experience gives you time to really feel out your career. Getting a law degree destroys the value of that option and can lock you into something that won't work long term. Quantify it however you want, but in retrospect that option value is shockingly high. My friends have taken their engineering degrees in almost every direction (leading startups, finance/bschool, consulting, etc.)

Side note -- your job hunting experience in patent law will vary based on your major. EEs will have an easier time landing a patent law job than other majors. If your degrees are in CivE or something else, then it will be a harder sell.

Not sure why after slogging it through an engineering program you decided $$$ was your only focus. If you have always had this motivation (i.e. chasing money), then by all means find the career that maximizes your wealth. However, if you are only now focusing on money, then I may take some time to slow down before jumping into something like law school.

[pancakes3]

Did I see it on here, or hear word of mouth saying that only about 5% of the legal jobs in America are market-paying biglaw?

Given that, and the fact that the pay scale is bimodal should definitely make someone reconsider LS.

OP also needs to get a firm handle on a) it's just about getting in - factor in debt and opportunity cost and b) the employment prospects outside of the T14 - even at a "T25" like GW.

[kapenak]

.

[Clemenceau]

Your logic wrt earning potential is way off

Anyway, check out the OP here, I think it's pretty telling: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=231368

[A. Nony Mouse]

Throwaway account.

Just want to remind people that throwaway accounts, or alts, are not allowed. Thanks.

[ig88250]

Thanks for the feedback!! I appreciate it.

Some things about me to clear up my situation:

- I don't really care about engineering. My parents kinda made me do it, but at this point with a masters I wanna find a way to maximize my earning potential. I went to Cornell which has one of the highest average salaries for entry level engineers, and most kids with a masters are making in the 80-90k range. The thought of being able to double that salary with just 3 years of further education is very attractive to me. I kinda think of it this way: the great majority of top engineers never see 150k+ salaries. Engineering managers make that much money with 10+ years of experience. The only engineers that really make a lot of money are those that start their own companies and are successful, but everybody knows the great majority of start-ups will be unsuccessful. On top of that, the successful engineers truly love what they do, and I really lack that level of passion for engineering to be that financially successful (though I certainly do still like it). When it comes down to starting out with 90k and ending up with an optimistic 200k in 10 years vs. starting out with 160k and potentially making millions in 10-15 years (which many partners do), its kinda hard to not pursue the latter option.

- I'm not really too excited about working just yet and another 3 years in school would be something that I wouldn't mind doing. Also, the money is really not a factor for me.

-Everybody talks about how the law market is saturated etc. but I have really yet to find anybody with an engineering/science background with a JD degree who is unemployed. They may not work for the biggest law firms, but they are still employed and probably make more than most engineers do. Reading this directly from the TLS site on GW (quoted directly from a 2L student): "A lot of my friends at GW happened to be in IP, and almost 100 percent of us have found summer associate positions - GW is so well known for IP that you really can't go wrong here.[xxii]" With people saying things like this, I really can't understand why so many people are pessimistic about somebody like me going to law school. Yes, Fordham isn't the most highly ranked school, but huge firms in NYC still recruit there and certainly somebody like me with an advanced degree in engineering would probably be in that 30-40% of kids who land jobs in BigLaw... no?

I would really love to hear more about what you guys think though. Certainly I can learn a lot from people's opinions and experiences

I get the impression you are not here for advice so much as to confirm your ambitions - which would explain the cherry picked evidence you use to confirm your ambitions. Now, that isn't all together bad. Its your life, pursue your dreams.

Sometimes, however, we pursue a dream with an unrealistic expected outcome and that dream becomes a nightmare. For the purpose of this discussion we are going to accept all the premises that you have laid out (which is tipping the scale way in your favor as they are, honestly, not totally realistic).

Lets assume after 3 years of law school you finish in the top 25% or 1/3 of your class. You interview well and you impress as a SA at a firm that makes 100% offers to SA's. You achieve your goal of $160k + right off the bat.

That is way better than engineers who are maxing out at about $90k/year. $70,000 more per year! Wow! That is almost double.

Of course, we need to consider hourly. Engineers work 40 hours a week. You got lucky and got a biglaw job at a firm with the closest thing to 'work-life balance' in biglaw, so your average work week is only 55 hours.

Engineer hours worked (assuming 50 work weeks) = 2000. Hourly wage = $45
Lawyer hours worked (assuming 50 work weeks) = 2750. Hourly wage = $58

Well, that is still pretty good. Not almost double, like the gross - but still a boost per hour.

Now we need to factor in the cost of law school. Tuition will run $150,000+ and your cost of living will be another $75,000. That is $225,000 in debt.

Now we need to factor in the opportunity cost. The cost of not working for $90k for 3 years is $270,000.

If someone came to you and said:

OPTION 1: you can make $45 per hour starting today, working 40 hours per week with no weekends and normal vacations

OR

OPTION 2: you can pay me $495,000 cash over 3 years and at the end of the 3 years you have a 25% chance of getting a job that pays $58 per hour and requires you to work 55-70+ hours a week. Vacations are difficult to come by, you have a 50/50 shot at liking the job more than the job in option 1 AND you have a 50/50 shot of burning out after less than 2 years and getting knocked down to a job that pays the same as OPTION 1 but the $495,000 is non-refundable.

Which option would you take? You see - even if your very optimistic view is 100% accurate and every thing goes your way the decision to go to law school doesn't make since.

There is only 1 exception. You really, really, really want to be a lawyer.


*obviously, the example is oversimplified. It doesn't factor in raises, taxes, cost of living, loan interest, etc. But those details don't change the fundamentals.

[Freebot]

To make a small observation to the post above, in IP, it is common to go to law school part-time and not rare to have employer reimbursement of law school tuition. These factors, of course, can substantially change the payoff calculations. The patent job market is different enough that you cannot blindly rely on the conventional wisdom for general legal hiring. For myself, I found the sweet spot was Georgetown part-time than to try for a full scholarship deeper in the T14 and incur the cost of 3 years of unemployment and forgoing work experience.

I will warn you to research proper technical backgrounds, though. BS+masters is adequate for electrical or mechanical engineering but will be very tough if not impossible for chemistry or biology.

[landshoes]

you realize that you say you want to be an attorney for the money and make a long argument about the salary...and then in the next paragraph you say "the money is really not a factor for me".

what does that actually mean? It doesn't make sense.

[Johann]

being a lawyer sucks. your per hour take home after paying off loans is going to be lower than being an engineer for at least 10 years if you factor in the 3 years of education. most people in biglaw hate it and leave to lesser paying jobs. being a lawyer means you can live in 3 cities to make what looks like on paper is good money. being an engineer lets you live wherever you want.

engineers are probably the happiest people i know in their profession with the best work life balance for the buck. turning down an engineer career for law career is probably the biggest no no in my book. if you got a full ride might be worth it, but id still pass.

[kapenak]

you realize that you say you want to be an attorney for the money and make a long argument about the salary...and then in the next paragraph you say "the money is really not a factor for me".

what does that actually mean? It doesn't make sense.

haha i meant the tuition money

[landshoes]

I get that you meant tuition money, but you realize that tuition money is a lot of money, right? Are you balancing the cost of law school plus the opportunity cost of not working against a realistic salary for a normal biglaw tenure?

(70k * 3) + $260k = $470k

That's before interest and that's completely discounting the time value of that money

Can you make $470k more as an attorney in the average, say, 3-4 years most people make it as a biglaw attorney? That's what you should be asking yourself if your goal is money.

[kartelite]

I get that you meant tuition money, but you realize that tuition money is a lot of money, right? Are you balancing the cost of law school plus the opportunity cost of not working against a realistic salary for a normal biglaw tenure?

(70k * 3) + $260k = $470k

That's before interest and that's completely discounting the time value of that money

Can you make $470k more as an attorney in the average, say, 3-4 years most people make it as a biglaw attorney? That's what you should be asking yourself if your goal is money.

Where does the $260k come from?

[jbagelboy]

I get that you meant tuition money, but you realize that tuition money is a lot of money, right? Are you balancing the cost of law school plus the opportunity cost of not working against a realistic salary for a normal biglaw tenure?

(70k * 3) + $260k = $470k

That's before interest and that's completely discounting the time value of that money

Can you make $470k more as an attorney in the average, say, 3-4 years most people make it as a biglaw attorney? That's what you should be asking yourself if your goal is money.

Where does the $260k come from?

I assume it's the average cost of a sticker debt financed legal education

[kartelite]

I get that you meant tuition money, but you realize that tuition money is a lot of money, right? Are you balancing the cost of law school plus the opportunity cost of not working against a realistic salary for a normal biglaw tenure?

(70k * 3) + $260k = $470k

That's before interest and that's completely discounting the time value of that money

Can you make $470k more as an attorney in the average, say, 3-4 years most people make it as a biglaw attorney? That's what you should be asking yourself if your goal is money.

Where does the $260k come from?

I assume it's the average cost of a sticker debt financed legal education

S/he said before accounting for time value of money (which is where the interest comes in), plus you should be accounting for it in today's dollars anyway. And it can't be cost of living because you have that whether or not you go to law school (probably higher if you don't go).

[landshoes]

I eyeballed 3 years of COL+tuition. It's true that you have COL anyway, although not necessarily NYC COL, but they only calculate about 20k for room and board so go ahead and say $200k. (Then again, I didn't add origination fees, loan interest, time value, tuition and COL increases, etc. etc. Nor did I subtract scholarships and aid.)

These are all calculations a given person has to do for themselves, but you should be thinking of the various costs and weighing them against what you could reasonably make without going to law school. Instead of thinking "oh it's 3 years of free school and then I make a bunch of money! $$$$" think about what you'd be earning if you didn't go to law school, and what your legal career will reasonably look like.

That is, if you are going to law school for the money. In some situations it is perfectly reasonable to go to law school even if it wouldn't make you more money than your current career path. But if you're going for the money you should think about the money, and think about it much more seriously than just saying "well 6 figures looks pretty good lol"