Berkley ($$$) vs. Stanford ($$/$$$) -- Running the Gauntlet in the 11th Hour Forum

[Fareslols]

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[urbanist11]

Post removed.

[Philafaler]

I think you should suck it up and go to Stanford. The reasons you cite for staying at B seem short-sighted.

You say yourself you want a unicorn job, and Stanford has an edge for barely anymore total debt (if your COA calculations are correct, which I think are maybe a bit low).

I know it would be a total pain, and it will be crazy stressful to switch, but don't let fear of that cloud your judgment here.

I also think Stanford has better LRAP, but not totally sure.

Edit: 0L here.

[ndirish2010]

Gotta bite the bullet and go to SLS, despite inconvenience.

[rnoodles]

Stanford all the way, and it's not even close. Count your blessings, forget the stress, and be excited. You are now officially a student at the 2nd best LS in the country.

[abl]

SLS = a stronger chance at your career goals (all of them) + better LRAP

I think that's easily worth an additional $25,000 and some minor immediate inconvenience. The fact that you may not have to pay for any of this (because of LRAP) makes it even easier. As does the fact that your career goals (elite impact PI + fed judge) are of the sort that SLS really does distance itself from the rest of the non-HY T14. My experience is that generally the fine distinctions between law schools (such as S v. B) make the biggest difference for the most elite outcomes. And it probably doesn't get more elite/competitive than impact enviro litigation and fed judiciary. I wouldn't count on the latter no matter what, but you do probably increase your chance from 1% to 2% by going to Stanford (or something of the sort).

I agree that it's not a particularly close call.

[teleste]

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[teleste]

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[jbagelboy]

First, with this cost difference and your goals, Stanford is still the better choice. I don't think the differences between the schools are as great as some others might suggest, and if you could graduate with zero debt from Cal I'd say go there for the added flexibility after graduation, but with some moderate debt load either way, Stanford is the superior option (although statistically speaking, it does not dominate the federal judiciary over every school other than Harvard and Yale; this is not borne out by a survey of federal judges alma maters). It does dominate the clerkship scene though.

Full disclosure:
Not a law student. (Applying this fall...) However, I passed on several "Elite" East Coast MBA programs when I chose to attend my T30 MBA program because it was a better fit and the money situation was better. I wake up every morning thankful I did.

I feel like this should be addressed. No offense, but this is loaded with unforced errors. there's a huge difference between an M7 MBA program and a regional one, far greater than the difference between Stanford and Berkeley, which are both top schools that place into similar industries (this must be taken with the fact that you are applying to law school with an MBA suggests your business/industry career did not pan out as well as it might have, or at least, you are sufficiently dissatisfied with it to be considering law school).

Also, "fit" is difficult to judge until you've attended two law schools. There are some schools out there I know I'd be less happy at than my current school, but as an 0L, I'd let that be a deciding factor between schools at roughly equal cost providing parallel opportunity; this is not those circumstances. OP seems more directly motivated in the hesitation to jump on SLS by personal inconvenience and shock than by a well reasoned approach to where he or she would have a superior experience.

[teleste]

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[rpupkin]

I voted "lean SLS" in your poll. The differences between Berkeley and SLS are not as stark as some ITT are suggesting, but I do think SLS is worth the extra $25K. And the logistical hassles seem annoying now but are really, really insignificant in the long term.

[stronitsing]

-The schools you are considering: UC-Berkeley and Stanford Law School.
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each: Debt at Graduation for Berkeley is about $75K vs. $100k for Stanford. (75K [over 3 years] of merit and 23K for the first year of need based at Berk; $40K of need-based for the first year at SLS to be reassessed yearly).
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings: Entirely loans.
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any): I am from the Midwest (Missouri) and hope to work in government (EPA?) or for an NGO advocating for those displaced by a changing climate (likely in DC). For a year or two after graduation I could stomach SF BigLaw to pay off loans. I have some ties in the Bay Area, Mass, and a few in DC.
-Your general career goals: Unicorn.edu. My ultimate hope is to be a federal judge, but I'm hilariously far away from that, so who knows.
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers: 168/4.0 (4.14 LSDAS)
-How many times you have taken the LSAT: Probably irrelevant?

Let me start this by acknowledging how lucky I am and how incredible both of my options are at this point. This afternoon I got a call during lunch from Faye Deal offering me a position at Stanford Law for the fall. She was fairly apologetic for the 11th hour call, and I couldn't agree with her more about how shitty an August 11th admissions call is.

So here's the deal: I have everything in place for Berkeley in the fall. My housing is set, my textbooks are bought, my plane ticket is purchased, and I leave in a (motherfucking) week. Is SLS superior enough to take a cost hit and start law school off with a huge amount of stress and inconvenience? And is the smaller size of SLS enough of a consideration to offset the sterile, wealthy, entitled reputation it seems to hold vis-a-vis Berk's metropolitan, easy-going one? (Obviously reputations are qualitative, anecdotal garbage, but they likely stem from somewhere).

I'm in love with Berkeley, based on what little time I've spent on campus, but I basically want to know if following my gut is ludicrous here.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have. This probably isn't thorough enough because I'm a bit frazzled, but please let me know if you have any questions. I know that there isn't a bad choice here, but I'm attempting to weigh the pros and cons.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

this is stanford easily IMO. it will be a pain for a week or so considering you have everything set for berk, but absolutely worth it.

[abl]

I totally agree -- happiness is an important and undervalued factor in the law school admissions process. But, like jdbagelboy, I suspect that the OP will actually be very similarly happy at Stanford as he or she will be at Berkeley.

These are two very similar law schools in essentially the same area of the country. The differences noted by the OP are, I suspect, much more reflective of the respective undergrad than the law schools. If there were other reasons to expect the OP to be happier away from Stanford (say, (s)he was considering UVA and had family in the area, or was considering NYU and loved New York), I do think that would make this a closer question. But I would be very cautious about basing much around the sorts of reputational differences that the OP cites (in part because what the OP writes about these two schools is not consistent with what I have heard / my own experiences with these two schools).

[fredfred]

Enjoy Stanford. This is honestly the easiest proposition asked on this website in a while.

[stego]

I voted "strong SLS" but rereading the OP, what happens if your need-based aid is slashed at Stanford after the first year? Do you have any assurances that your need-based aid is likely to stay the same or, at least, unlikely to decrease by much?

Just wondering how solid the "$100k debt at graduation from Stanford" number really is. And if not very, how much higher it would have to go before this becomes difficult. $25k more for Stanford over Berkeley seems like a no-brainer.

[Fareslols]

I voted "strong SLS" but rereading the OP, what happens if your need-based aid is slashed at Stanford after the first year? Do you have any assurances that your need-based aid is likely to stay the same or, at least, unlikely to decrease by much?

Just wondering how solid the "$100k debt at graduation from Stanford" number really is. And if not very, how much higher it would have to go before this becomes difficult. $25k more for Stanford over Berkeley seems like a no-brainer.

Fair point.

So, the question becomes this: if Berkeley decided to become free (which may be feasible, if leveraged correctly) and Stanford actually ended up costing closer to $130k, would the choice still be as clear?

Thanks very much for your responses, everyone! It's definitely appreciated

[Tiago Splitter]

Berkeley isn't gonna become free. There isn't a school out there that will get you down to 0 COA with scholarships. If you've got family money to cover the rest of the cost, you shouldn't be getting so much need money. And any risk of losing need aid at Stanford applies equally to Berkeley.

That said, if Berkeley will throw away your need aid and give you a 100% merit scholarship (or need aid guaranteed for 3 years whatever the hell they want to call their merit aid) then it's a reasonable choice if you plan to work at a firm and lose some of that Stanford need aid anyway. Even then I'd probably still go to Stanford but it at least becomes a choice.

[Mack.Hambleton]

I voted "lean SLS" in your poll. The differences between Berkeley and SLS are not as stark as some ITT are suggesting, but I do think SLS is worth the extra $25K. And the logistical hassles seem annoying now but are really, really insignificant in the long term.

This

[metroidbum]

For only 25k COA more, Stanford. I don't know why people are even hedging their answers to the extent that they are.

[Hornet2011]

First of all, please let us know what you decide to do as this is a tough decision and may help others in the future.

Personally I would lean strongly towards Stanford given your goals. Unless you absolutely love Berkely so much you can't imagine going anywhere else (which isn't the case because of this thread).

FYI I voted lean Stanford though as I would be slightly cautious about the need based aid being "reevaluated"

[Instinctive]

So here's the deal: I have everything in place for Berkeley in the fall. My housing is set, my textbooks are bought, my plane ticket is purchased, and I leave in a (motherfucking) week. Is SLS superior enough to take a cost hit and start law school off with a huge amount of stress and inconvenience? And is the smaller size of SLS enough of a consideration to offset the sterile, wealthy, entitled reputation it seems to hold vis-a-vis Berk's metropolitan, easy-going one? (Obviously reputations are qualitative, anecdotal garbage, but they likely stem from somewhere).

OP: I was a mid/late summer waitlist admit to Stanford as well, and had all of the same things in place in New Haven that you have with Berkeley when I was faced with this choice. One of my friends right off the bat was deposited somewhere and got off both the SLS and YLS waitlists like 4 days before orientation. As far as I can tell, she's incredibly happy with her choice as well.

After a year of school (I'm entering my second year), I have absolutely no regrets, and would make the decision without any of the agonizing I did if I could go back in time knowing what I know now. Housing will come together very quickly, as 1Ls are guaranteed first-year subsidized housing of some kind. Try very hard for a full-year lease if you can though, for future considerations. Books can be returned, different books can be bought, and you could probably keep the same flight and just get down to Palo Alto if you want anyway (it's easier from SFO than from Oakland airport, but neither is particularly difficult).


On a separate note:
I've also never experienced the "sterile, wealthy, entitled reputation" you mention, but maybe I'm a sterile, entitled asshole (I know I'm not wealthy though, so there's that HAHA). I have felt nothing short of incredibly welcomed, like a member of a family, 90+% of the time that I have been at Stanford. As far as the class breakdown goes personality-wise, I'd say you have a middle 90% of people who are awesome and welcoming, then 5% of people who are far-left militant jerks if you don't agree with them immediately, and 5% of people are far-right militant jerks who do the same thing. The people in the latter category are super easy to avoid, and the other group is a reality at any law school. The vast majority of people I have met have been caring, friendly, and (most importantly) deeply thoughtful about almost everything they say. It is an awesome place to be, and I have learned as much just from having lunch with my classmates each day in one year as I had in any given year of undergrad coursework.


Bottom line: you can't choose wrong here. Congratulations and best of luck.
ETA: feel free to PM if you wish

[krads153]

I'm a practicing attorney - Stanford is a no brainer to me.

Also they are within a one hour drive of each other, so whatever airport you're flying into will be close to both.

That said, I have general reservations on whether most people should go to law school period (including Yale) since it's probably a huge financial gamble for most and many people don't like practicing law, but if you're going to go to law school, might as well go to Stanford.

[KMart]

if you're going to go to law school, might as well go to Stanford.

+1

[indecisive2015]

pick stanford! I'm sure if you post in the berkeley facebook groups you can easily resell your textbooks and find someone to take over your lease.

[stego]

OP: I was a mid/late summer waitlist admit to Stanford as well, and had all of the same things in place in New Haven that you have with Berkeley when I was faced with this choice.

You were all set to go to Yale until you got Stanford off the waitlist? Why did you choose Stanford?