Michigan or Northwestern?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Michigan (debt: 85k) or Northwestern (debt: 80k)

Michigan
17
29%
Northwestern
42
71%
 
Total votes: 59

D.Kim
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Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby D.Kim » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:01 pm

Expected debt at graduation (after scholarships and savings):
Michigan: $85,000
Northwestern: $80,000

Goal is Chicago BL. If that doesn't work out, I'd prefer either BL in the secondary Midwestern market where I went to UG or LA BL. Not keen on NYC but would be willing to do it for a few years. Ties largely limited to the Midwest.

I know Northwestern places more students in Chicago but imagine that, at least to some extent, this is due to self selection. I realize there are Michigan students who want Chicago and strike out, but there are also likely more students at Michigan with no interest in Chicago BL than at Northwestern.

My other concern is about the outcomes for students who end up at the bottom of the class. It'd be foolish to assume I'll be above median, or even at median for that matter, and the underemployment rate at Northwestern gives me pause. While current Michigan students have shed light on what it's like at the bottom (it ain't pretty), I've found little information about how the bottom third fare at Northwestern and find the lack of information somehow more worrisome.

Last, if I strike out in Chicago, I'm worried a Northwestern JD would be less portable than one from Michigan, even within the Midwest.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

WheninLaw
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby WheninLaw » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:06 pm

NU has been stronger than Michigan for years in placing into Big Law, and does significantly better in Chicago. NU.

edit: make a poll.

krads153
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby krads153 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:10 pm

If you're bottom third at both schools you're likely facing the same fate

That said, I think NU generally places slightly more (like maybe on average 4-5%) into biglaw the past couple of years, but there's a lot more PI focused people at Michigan (and a better LRAP).

I think it's pretty even IMO, and frankly, with 80k debt you might not need to do biglaw anyway.

I went to Mich (am in biglaw now) and I didn't apply to NU, largely because I was like 21 when I started law school. (I also don't like Chicago.) I think it also depends on what you're looking for - if you're younger NU might not be the right place (not just socially, but for OCI purposes it's harder to compete against older people with work experience).

I don't think you can go wrong either way, IMO, but if you're younger I'd be less inclined to go to NU.

WheninLaw
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby WheninLaw » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:13 pm

krads153 wrote:I think NU generally places slightly more (like maybe on average 4-5%) into biglaw the past couple of years, but there's a lot more PI focused people at Michigan (and a better LRAP).


This is not true. NU, at least for the last 2-3 years, has been 10% higher. I truly doubt that is attributable to a greater PI-focus.

krads153
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby krads153 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:13 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
krads153 wrote:I think NU generally places slightly more (like maybe on average 4-5%) into biglaw the past couple of years, but there's a lot more PI focused people at Michigan (and a better LRAP).


This is not true. NU, at least for the last 2-3 years, has been 10% higher. I truly doubt that is attributable to a greater PI-focus.


For biglaw + clerkship placement? Or just biglaw?

Mich places like 20% into PI these days ...doesn't NU place way less than 10% into PI

Anyway, Mich reduced its class size last year (?) by like 50 people, so that should help

I think this choice is pretty even, and it'd depend on your age.
Last edited by krads153 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:16 pm

Northwestern is the better choice since you want Chicago biglaw. Portability probably tilts in favor of Northwestern, but this could be argued either way.

If you weren't targeting Chicago biglaw, then it would be options with no wrong choice. Chicago is in love with NU--and for good reason.

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KMart
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby KMart » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:35 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Northwestern is the better choice since you want Chicago biglaw. Portability probably tilts in favor of Northwestern, but this could be argued either way.

If you weren't targeting Chicago biglaw, then it would be options with no wrong choice. Chicago is in love with NU--and for good reason.

This really hits the nail perfectly. I can't say it any better, OP.

iVi
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby iVi » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:38 pm

KMart wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Northwestern is the better choice since you want Chicago biglaw. Portability probably tilts in favor of Northwestern, but this could be argued either way.

If you weren't targeting Chicago biglaw, then it would be options with no wrong choice. Chicago is in love with NU--and for good reason.

This really hits the nail perfectly. I can't say it any better, OP.


+1 Congrats on the great options.

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chuckbass
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby chuckbass » Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:45 pm

D.Kim wrote:Goal is Chicago BL.

Northwestern no question.

D.Kim
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby D.Kim » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:53 pm

Comments seem to unanimously support Northwestern but seven of you voted for Michigan in the poll. For those who voted Michigan, what's your reasoning?

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KMart
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby KMart » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:54 pm

Maybe their WLed at NU.

Chrstgtr
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Chrstgtr » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:11 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
D.Kim wrote:Goal is Chicago BL.

Northwestern no question.


JD-MBA kids going into high end business jobs is the largest contributor to NU's poor LST scores since they're JD-advantage jobs that LST knocks schools on. But those jobs are just as if not more competitive than BL and pay about the same after bonus.

Check out the job stats and salaries. http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... index.html

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Aeon
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Aeon » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:22 pm

D.Kim wrote:Comments seem to unanimously support Northwestern but seven of you voted for Michigan in the poll. For those who voted Michigan, what's your reasoning?


I didn't vote, but perhaps people were considering Michigan's greater portability.

I'd say that both are very good options. If you're fairly certain you want Chicago, then Northwestern is probably the way to go. Michigan's reach is definitely broader geographically, but that doesn't mean that Northwestern can't get you to places outside of Chicago -- it'll take a bit more legwork.

D.Kim
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby D.Kim » Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:37 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
D.Kim wrote:Goal is Chicago BL.

Northwestern no question.


JD-MBA kids going into high end business jobs is the largest contributor to NU's poor LST scores since they're JD-advantage jobs that LST knocks schools on. But those jobs are just as if not more competitive than BL and pay about the same after bonus.

Check out the job stats and salaries. http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... index.html


Yeah, these stats are encouraging and part of the reason I'm leaning NU. Portability was/is a small concern, but I think the more important consideration is that I know I want to start out in Chicago.

Just curious why so many ppl voted Michigan without explaining their reasons. Thanks to those who have stepped up to answer for them.

Chrstgtr
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Chrstgtr » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:20 am

D.Kim wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:
D.Kim wrote:Goal is Chicago BL.

Northwestern no question.


JD-MBA kids going into high end business jobs is the largest contributor to NU's poor LST scores since they're JD-advantage jobs that LST knocks schools on. But those jobs are just as if not more competitive than BL and pay about the same after bonus.

Check out the job stats and salaries. http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... index.html


Yeah, these stats are encouraging and part of the reason I'm leaning NU. Portability was/is a small concern, but I think the more important consideration is that I know I want to start out in Chicago.

Just curious why so many ppl voted Michigan without explaining their reasons. Thanks to those who have stepped up to answer for them.


Honestly I think most of the mobility bit that people cite as a reason to go to Michigan over a place like NU is only perceived as existing because Mich doesn't have any home market like NU does with Chicago. Like sure I believe that NYU and Columbia has better mobility than NU but almost all of their grads end up in NYC BL because that is their home market. Same thing with NU and Chicago on a smaller scale (less people want to be in Chicago and NYC has way more jobs than Chicago or anywhere else. Take that analysis as you will. For what it is worth I regularly hear of people returning their secondary markets (esp. those in the Midwest) from NU or going back home to California.

ETA: all those mobility concerns (outside of a Chicago advantage for NU) are probably moot though because if you get to one of those other markets you'll probably need to be above median at both places, otherwise you're likely looking at NYC BL

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Cobretti
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Cobretti » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:01 am

Aeon wrote:
D.Kim wrote:Comments seem to unanimously support Northwestern but seven of you voted for Michigan in the poll. For those who voted Michigan, what's your reasoning?


I didn't vote, but perhaps people were considering Michigan's greater portability.

I'd say that both are very good options. If you're fairly certain you want Chicago, then Northwestern is probably the way to go. Michigan's reach is definitely broader geographically, but that doesn't mean that Northwestern can't get you to places outside of Chicago -- it'll take a bit more legwork.

Where are you getting this?

ETA: +1 to everything chrstgr said

WheninLaw
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby WheninLaw » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:48 am

Cobretti wrote:
Aeon wrote:
D.Kim wrote:Comments seem to unanimously support Northwestern but seven of you voted for Michigan in the poll. For those who voted Michigan, what's your reasoning?


I didn't vote, but perhaps people were considering Michigan's greater portability.

I'd say that both are very good options. If you're fairly certain you want Chicago, then Northwestern is probably the way to go. Michigan's reach is definitely broader geographically, but that doesn't mean that Northwestern can't get you to places outside of Chicago -- it'll take a bit more legwork.

Where are you getting this?

ETA: +1 to everything chrstgr said


+1. I simply do not understand this "Mich has portability" argument. If it did, its big law stats would be better.

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:06 pm

WheninLaw wrote:
+1. I simply do not understand this "Mich has portability" argument. If it did, its big law stats would be better.


Nah, that hurts biglaw stats because you get people applying all over without any one market saturated with alums who are pulling for their own school. So sure, you have a better shot at finding some law firms with a Michigan alum on a hiring committee in any given market, but they probably aren't going to be the most represented school on that hiring committee or present on as many firms in that market.

Michigan's employment numbers are a product of the save-the-mannetees students that Dean Z has worked hard to recruit. Law firms don't particularly want "unique" or "interesting"; they want "hardworking" and "predictable." Employer perceptions of a school don't change over the course of 2 years.

That said OP, you should go to NU if you want Chicago and think you'd like the school.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:42 pm

WheninLaw wrote:If it did, its big law stats would be better.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Maybe it's because NU students have the third highest debt amounts out of ALL law schools (at 163K) and the highest out of the T-14. They are broke as shit.

Also can dumb, broke 0Ls stop idolizing biglaw? Why do all these poor, dumb as fuck 0ls even want to do biglaw? Just do "200k debt" and dig yourself out of a hole for years while hating your life...sounds like a plan....NOT. Most of you can't even handle biglaw for 5 years. (And judging by the summer associates we've had this year...they are getting shittier and shitter as time goes on.)

I wish people could stop being poor dumb fucks and stop idolizing biglaw. There's nothing more annoying than poor 0Ls who idolize biglaw.

WheninLaw
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby WheninLaw » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:19 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:If it did, its big law stats would be better.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Maybe it's because NU students have the third highest debt amounts out of ALL law schools (at 163K) and the highest out of the T-14. They are broke as shit.

Also can dumb, broke 0Ls stop idolizing biglaw? Why do all these poor, dumb as fuck 0ls even want to do biglaw? Just do "200k debt" and dig yourself out of a hole for years while hating your life...sounds like a plan....NOT. Most of you can't even handle biglaw for 5 years. (And judging by the summer associates we've had this year...they are getting shittier and shitter as time goes on.)

I wish people could stop being poor dumb fucks and stop idolizing biglaw. There's nothing more annoying than poor 0Ls who idolize biglaw.


Not really sure why you're quoting me. OP is (1) going to law school; (2) wants to work at a law firm in Chicago; and (3) won't take on very much debt doing it.

Yeah, big law sucks. Ok?

Chrstgtr
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Chrstgtr » Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:37 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:If it did, its big law stats would be better.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Maybe it's because NU students have the third highest debt amounts out of ALL law schools (at 163K) and the highest out of the T-14. They are broke as shit.

Also can dumb, broke 0Ls stop idolizing biglaw? Why do all these poor, dumb as fuck 0ls even want to do biglaw? Just do "200k debt" and dig yourself out of a hole for years while hating your life...sounds like a plan....NOT. Most of you can't even handle biglaw for 5 years. (And judging by the summer associates we've had this year...they are getting shittier and shitter as time goes on.)

I wish people could stop being poor dumb fucks and stop idolizing biglaw. There's nothing more annoying than poor 0Ls who idolize biglaw.


This also makes no little sense to me. NU grads have more debt than others, so what. Having $120K+ in debt requires you take a BL (or BL-esque job). Going from 160 to 130 in debt only changes the amount of time someone spends in BL--not whether or not they need BL to pay it off.

Also when you're talking about having a 20%+ chance of completely missing the BL boat by choosing Michigan over NU, the extra debt of 30K on average seems to make sense because missing the boat with leave you with life-crushing debt and no way to pay it off. In a situation where OP has a better chance of getting to his desired destination and an ever so slightly lower COA by choosing NU I don't see how going to Michigan makes any sense unless the OP is set on PI.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:31 am

Chrstgtr wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:If it did, its big law stats would be better.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Maybe it's because NU students have the third highest debt amounts out of ALL law schools (at 163K) and the highest out of the T-14. They are broke as shit.

Also can dumb, broke 0Ls stop idolizing biglaw? Why do all these poor, dumb as fuck 0ls even want to do biglaw? Just do "200k debt" and dig yourself out of a hole for years while hating your life...sounds like a plan....NOT. Most of you can't even handle biglaw for 5 years. (And judging by the summer associates we've had this year...they are getting shittier and shitter as time goes on.)

I wish people could stop being poor dumb fucks and stop idolizing biglaw. There's nothing more annoying than poor 0Ls who idolize biglaw.


This also makes no little sense to me. NU grads have more debt than others, so what. Having $120K+ in debt requires you take a BL (or BL-esque job). Going from 160 to 130 in debt only changes the amount of time someone spends in BL--not whether or not they need BL to pay it off.

Also when you're talking about having a 20%+ chance of completely missing the BL boat by choosing Michigan over NU, the extra debt of 30K on average seems to make sense because missing the boat with leave you with life-crushing debt and no way to pay it off. In a situation where OP has a better chance of getting to his desired destination and an ever so slightly lower COA by choosing NU I don't see how going to Michigan makes any sense unless the OP is set on PI.


Didn't someone else say it was 10% more into BL? Now it's 20%? Who is making shit up? I assume you? Are you just sad that you took out 200k loans for a shitty job?

My opinion? OP shouldn't even do biglaw with 80k debt. Do something else. He doesn't need to be a dumb poor like everyone else slobbering over biglaw.

Chrstgtr
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Chrstgtr » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:48 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:If it did, its big law stats would be better.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Maybe it's because NU students have the third highest debt amounts out of ALL law schools (at 163K) and the highest out of the T-14. They are broke as shit.

Also can dumb, broke 0Ls stop idolizing biglaw? Why do all these poor, dumb as fuck 0ls even want to do biglaw? Just do "200k debt" and dig yourself out of a hole for years while hating your life...sounds like a plan....NOT. Most of you can't even handle biglaw for 5 years. (And judging by the summer associates we've had this year...they are getting shittier and shitter as time goes on.)

I wish people could stop being poor dumb fucks and stop idolizing biglaw. There's nothing more annoying than poor 0Ls who idolize biglaw.


This also makes no little sense to me. NU grads have more debt than others, so what. Having $120K+ in debt requires you take a BL (or BL-esque job). Going from 160 to 130 in debt only changes the amount of time someone spends in BL--not whether or not they need BL to pay it off.

Also when you're talking about having a 20%+ chance of completely missing the BL boat by choosing Michigan over NU, the extra debt of 30K on average seems to make sense because missing the boat with leave you with life-crushing debt and no way to pay it off. In a situation where OP has a better chance of getting to his desired destination and an ever so slightly lower COA by choosing NU I don't see how going to Michigan makes any sense unless the OP is set on PI.


Didn't someone else say it was 10% more into BL? Now it's 20%? Who is making shit up? I assume you? Are you just sad that you took out 200k loans for a shitty job?

My opinion? OP shouldn't even do biglaw with 80k debt. Do something else. He doesn't need to be a dumb poor like everyone else slobbering over biglaw.


10% of 50% is a 20% increase in his chances to get BL. Those numbers don't include NU's strong business jobs which would add another a little more than 10% to the total of "good outcomes" for NU students or 20%+ in absolute terms and 40%+ in regard to the increase.

We get it, you hate your job. Quit complaining about it and certainly quit bickering over the minutiae of numbers that make Michigan go from a take option to a less bad option for OP.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:59 am

Chrstgtr wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
WheninLaw wrote:If it did, its big law stats would be better.


http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Maybe it's because NU students have the third highest debt amounts out of ALL law schools (at 163K) and the highest out of the T-14. They are broke as shit.

Also can dumb, broke 0Ls stop idolizing biglaw? Why do all these poor, dumb as fuck 0ls even want to do biglaw? Just do "200k debt" and dig yourself out of a hole for years while hating your life...sounds like a plan....NOT. Most of you can't even handle biglaw for 5 years. (And judging by the summer associates we've had this year...they are getting shittier and shitter as time goes on.)

I wish people could stop being poor dumb fucks and stop idolizing biglaw. There's nothing more annoying than poor 0Ls who idolize biglaw.


This also makes no little sense to me. NU grads have more debt than others, so what. Having $120K+ in debt requires you take a BL (or BL-esque job). Going from 160 to 130 in debt only changes the amount of time someone spends in BL--not whether or not they need BL to pay it off.

Also when you're talking about having a 20%+ chance of completely missing the BL boat by choosing Michigan over NU, the extra debt of 30K on average seems to make sense because missing the boat with leave you with life-crushing debt and no way to pay it off. In a situation where OP has a better chance of getting to his desired destination and an ever so slightly lower COA by choosing NU I don't see how going to Michigan makes any sense unless the OP is set on PI.


Didn't someone else say it was 10% more into BL? Now it's 20%? Who is making shit up? I assume you? Are you just sad that you took out 200k loans for a shitty job?

My opinion? OP shouldn't even do biglaw with 80k debt. Do something else. He doesn't need to be a dumb poor like everyone else slobbering over biglaw.


10% of 50% is a 20% increase in his chances to get BL. Those numbers don't include NU's strong business jobs which would add another a little more than 10% to the total of "good outcomes" for NU students or 20%+ in absolute terms and 40%+ in regard to the increase.

We get it, you hate your job. Quit complaining about it and certainly quit bickering over the minutiae of numbers that make Michigan go from a take option to a less bad option for OP.


Right...so basically you mean 10% more into biglaw. Look at you though - manipulating words/numbers to make shit up! Already a lawyer in training.

Chrstgtr
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Re: Michigan or Northwestern?

Postby Chrstgtr » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:25 pm

If you have a 2% chance of something happening and then that chance increases to 4% you would say that your odds doubled. Same here. Get over it.




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