Michigan or Penn?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Michigan or Penn?

Michigan
16
55%
Penn
13
45%
 
Total votes: 29

grutterv
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:13 pm

Michigan or Penn?

Postby grutterv » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:35 pm

I'm new to TLS and figured I'd get last minute opinions before I decide Monday (that's when Michigan's second tuition deposit is due). I've narrowed down my choices to Michigan and Penn (though I'm semi-holding out for Columbia, where I am waitlisted). Both schools are offering me around $75,000. I'm a MI native and would prefer to work in state. I am open to any kind of legal work but will shoot for a federal clerkship first. My dream is PI but I'm not attached enough to feel comfortable with the debt/being on a loan for 10 years.

I've been set on Penn because of their superior employment data, but recently swayed to Mich because of its superior status in-state and in PI.
Last edited by grutterv on Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
stego
Posts: 2819
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:23 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby stego » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:45 pm

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

UpandDown97
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby UpandDown97 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:51 pm

grutterv wrote:I'm new to TLS and figured I'd get last minute opinions before I decide Monday (that's when Michigan's second tuition deposit is due). I've narrowed down my choices to Michigan and Penn (though I'm semi-holding out for Columbia, where I am waitlisted). Both schools are offering me around $75,000. I'm a MI native and would prefer to work in state. I am open to any kind of legal work but will shoot for a federal clerkship first. My dream is PI but I'm not attached enough to feel comfortable with the debt/being on a loan for 10 years.

I've been set on Penn because of their superior employment data, but recently swayed to Mich because of its superior status in-state and in PI.


Can you leverage any more money out of either to make your decision easier?

grutterv
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:13 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby grutterv » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:03 pm

I don't think I can leverage more money from either - Penn doubled their offer after the first time I asked and then Michigan matched their offer and denied my most recent request for more money. Factoring in tuition cost differences, Penn is still around $22,000 more expensive for me. I've taken the LSAT once and have a 166 and a 4.0 GPA.

User avatar
Clemenceau
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:33 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby Clemenceau » Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:29 pm

You said you want to work in Michigan? I think the answer sorta depends on how committed you are to that idea. Umich is definitely the right move if you're dead set on finding legal employment in Michigan. If you're just gonna shoot for big city biglaw then 20k seems like a reasonable premium to pay for penn.

User avatar
Mack.Hambleton
Posts: 5417
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:09 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:54 am

Clemenceau wrote:You said you want to work in Michigan? I think the answer sorta depends on how committed you are to that idea. Umich is definitely the right move if you're dead set on finding legal employment in Michigan. If you're just gonna shoot for big city biglaw then 20k seems like a reasonable premium to pay for penn.


This. If you were more biglaw focused I'd say Penn so you could bid NY and Detroit biglaw and probably have a job, but if you want to do Michigan PI definitely stay instate

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:33 am

4.0/166...retake. These are great options but you could go to Michigan for free if you got the right LSAT score.

User avatar
Mack.Hambleton
Posts: 5417
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:09 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:19 am

ndirish2010 wrote:4.0/166...retake. These are great options but you could go to Michigan for free if you got the right LSAT score.


Also this

User avatar
LegaleZy
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:36 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby LegaleZy » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:25 am

I think 22k is a reasonable amount to pay for the extra opportunities Penn would offer. You have ties to MI, so you could still get back there from Penn. More importantly you want to do a federal clerkship and Penn would offer more opportunities for that as well as BigLaw. If you said you were 100% set on PI and nothing at all would sway that decision than Michigan, but it sounds like you are open to exploration once you get to law school and I think Penn would allow for more of that. Congrats on your awesome outcomes!

User avatar
Mack.Hambleton
Posts: 5417
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 2:09 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:29 am

LegaleZy wrote:I think 22k is a reasonable amount to pay for the extra opportunities Penn would offer. You have ties to MI, so you could still get back there from Penn. More importantly you want to do a federal clerkship and Penn would offer more opportunities for that as well as BigLaw. If you said you were 100% set on PI and nothing at all would sway that decision than Michigan, but it sounds like you are open to exploration once you get to law school and I think Penn would allow for more of that. Congrats on your awesome outcomes!


I don't think penn would help re clerkships

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:11 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
LegaleZy wrote:I think 22k is a reasonable amount to pay for the extra opportunities Penn would offer. You have ties to MI, so you could still get back there from Penn. More importantly you want to do a federal clerkship and Penn would offer more opportunities for that as well as BigLaw. If you said you were 100% set on PI and nothing at all would sway that decision than Michigan, but it sounds like you are open to exploration once you get to law school and I think Penn would allow for more of that. Congrats on your awesome outcomes!


I don't think penn would help re clerkships


Nope, Michigan is probably better for clerkships.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:36 pm

Based on your geographic & career goals, Michigan makes a lot of sense. The good news, however, is that you can't make a wrong choice between these two options.

marowl0
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby marowl0 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:42 pm

I am trying to make this same decision except Michigan will pay my living expenses as well as tuition. I am into Fed Gov positions any thoughts on the placement there.

BigZuck
Posts: 10851
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:58 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Based on your geographic & career goals, Michigan makes a lot of sense. The good news, however, is that you can't make a wrong choice between these two options.

Eh...

Not sure either is a particularly good option with only 75K. I might go so far as to say both are bad options with 75K. I wouldn't want 200K+ hanging over my head when working in PI and I'm not convinced that big law is worth 200K to secure.

Both are poor options for a 4.0/166. Everyone here can agree on that.

Retake/reapply

(Looks like posts were edited so maybe I didn't get the whole story here)

marowl0
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby marowl0 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:16 pm

Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.

UpandDown97
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby UpandDown97 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:18 pm

marowl0 wrote:Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.


They aren't. People here just have convoluted thinking.

BigZuck
Posts: 10851
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:20 pm

marowl0 wrote:Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.

You're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting my post

Anyway this is the answer:
ndirish2010 wrote:4.0/166...retake. These are great options but you could go to Michigan for free if you got the right LSAT score.

168/3.96 is also an auto-retake

BigZuck
Posts: 10851
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:20 pm

UpandDown97 wrote:
marowl0 wrote:Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.


They aren't. People here just have convoluted thinking.

Nope

UpandDown97
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby UpandDown97 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:40 pm

BigZuck wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
marowl0 wrote:Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.


They aren't. People here just have convoluted thinking.

Nope


OP got an offer to go to two top 10 law schools with a half tuition scholarship. And you're saying that's not good enough?

He/she could give up a year and maybe get the rest of the scholarship dollars, but what's the cost of doing that? Perhaps not worth it.

Chances of going up from the 93rd percentile of the LSAT is probably pretty slim.

BigZuck
Posts: 10851
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:02 pm

UpandDown97 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
marowl0 wrote:Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.


They aren't. People here just have convoluted thinking.

Nope


OP got an offer to go to two top 10 law schools with a half tuition scholarship. And you're saying that's not good enough?

He/she could give up a year and maybe get the rest of the scholarship dollars, but what's the cost of doing that? Perhaps not worth it.

Chances of going up from the 93rd percentile of the LSAT is probably pretty slim.

Tuition at Penn is almost 60K. 30K would be a half ride.

But yes, I don't think 200K debt is worth it. That's what I'm saying.

I think better scholarship and/or school is definitely worth retaking and reapplying

Of course, the OP won't do that. But it's good info for future 0Ls who read this thread. When you're sitting on like a 4.0/166 and its, like, September, make sure you sign up for the December LSAT.

I think the chances of squeezing out a few more points are quite high. It's a couple more correct answers.

marowl0
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby marowl0 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:07 pm

That's what I was thinking a 168 is 95th percentile and at that level its almost a 50 50 shot to go up or down per the stats. Better to take the offers and run. The only way that your choices get significantly better is if you move into the YHS area and to do that your going to need a significant LSAT boost. Of course its all just opinion and what you want out of your education.

UpandDown97
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby UpandDown97 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:14 pm

BigZuck wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
marowl0 wrote:Why are 2 T14 schools both normally T10 schools bad options for a 166/4.o? I have a 168/3.96 are they bad options for me as well? I am not being a smart ass just wondering the logic behind that assertion.


They aren't. People here just have convoluted thinking.

Nope


OP got an offer to go to two top 10 law schools with a half tuition scholarship. And you're saying that's not good enough?

He/she could give up a year and maybe get the rest of the scholarship dollars, but what's the cost of doing that? Perhaps not worth it.

Chances of going up from the 93rd percentile of the LSAT is probably pretty slim.

Tuition at Penn is almost 60K. 30K would be a half ride.

But yes, I don't think 200K debt is worth it. That's what I'm saying.

I think better scholarship and/or school is definitely worth retaking and reapplying

Of course, the OP won't do that. But it's good info for future 0Ls who read this thread. When you're sitting on like a 4.0/166 and its, like, September, make sure you sign up for the December LSAT.

I think the chances of squeezing out a few more points are quite high. It's a couple more correct answers.


What if 168 is the second try? And in order to re-take, one must delay law school for a year and keep a job they don't want, live in a place they don't want, etc.? Re-taking is not the solution then.

People get drunk on "re-take" advice here.

User avatar
ndirish2010
Posts: 2950
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:41 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby ndirish2010 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:28 pm

Suck it up for another year. It could change your life.

User avatar
Hikikomorist
Posts: 3025
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:05 pm

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby Hikikomorist » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:39 pm

marowl0 wrote:That's what I was thinking a 168 is 95th percentile and at that level its almost a 50 50 shot to go up or down per the stats. Better to take the offers and run. The only way that your choices get significantly better is if you move into the YHS area and to do that your going to need a significant LSAT boost. Of course its all just opinion and what you want out of your education.

Waiting a year allows for two retakes, assuming you have them available to you. This would give you a 75 percent chance of improving, and every single point near that level is meaningful.

marowl0
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:31 am

Re: Michigan or Penn?

Postby marowl0 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:54 pm

Hikkomorist wrote:
marowl0 wrote:That's what I was thinking a 168 is 95th percentile and at that level its almost a 50 50 shot to go up or down per the stats. Better to take the offers and run. The only way that your choices get significantly better is if you move into the YHS area and to do that your going to need a significant LSAT boost. Of course its all just opinion and what you want out of your education.

Waiting a year allows for two retakes, assuming you have them available to you. This would give you a 75 percent chance of improving, and every single point near that level is meaningful.


I hear you here and if you feel that you were no prepared than by all means retake. That said if you honestly did all you can and you scored within the range of your practice tests I would not retake a 168. I am perfectly ok with the choice of UPenn at total cost of 37k and Michigan at making 18k a year. I think I may have been able to get a 170 but how much better are my options going to be? Columbia at full price? I still think I take the other two options over that one.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 88234, archipm, gc2maxpro, Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests