Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

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pancakes
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Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:58 pm

Thank you in advance for any advice or knowledge you have regarding either school. I have been planning on going to the University of Denver and only submitted deposits there. However, I have remained on some waitlists and UC Davis offered a seat to me on Tuesday. It really comes down to money for me and I'm not sure where to draw the line between rankings and cost. I'm interested in intellectual property law, but my interests are not confined to just that. There's a large possibility that I'll change my mind once in law school. I am open to living and remaining in whatever state I move to after graduation. I have listed some stats below that I've found in hopes that I get more input on this huge decision. I have to decide by this Monday, June 15 and I will be funding my education completely through loans. Granted I know tuition will go up each year, but these are rough estimates at the current numbers.

University of Denver: Merit Scholarship $30,000, Total Cost of Attendance 1L $31,173, projected 3 year cost $93,519

UC Davis: Merit Scholarship $13,000, Need Grant $7,000, Total Cost of Attendance 1L $54,973, projected 3 year cost w/ 2L&3L in state tuition $146,417 (~53,000 more than Denver)

UC Davis noted I was unable to receive my full need award since I came off the waitlist and submitted my need access after March, so there is potential for that number to increase. If I receive the full award it could be up to $15,000 my 2L&3L years. This would total my education for 3 years at $130,417 (~37,00 more than Denver).

So potentially Davis would cost between 130,000-146,000 vs Denver at 93,000.

I have a chance to receive a $9,300 grant to offset the non-resident tuition and that would put me between 121,000-137,000. I am still waiting to hear back if I can receive that award.

Davis comes in at 31 with an 82.2% employment opportunity score and 77.5% LST employment score.
Denver comes in at 67 with a 67.5% employment opportunity score and 55.2% LST employment score.

I know Davis is clearly the better school... but is it really worth the extra cost compared to Denver and where should I draw that line?

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:00 pm

Davis is out at that price, for sure. What do you want to do and where do you want to work?

Lsat/gpa?

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FullRamboLSGrad
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby FullRamboLSGrad » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:03 pm

These are pretty large debt figures but aren't out of the park.

Denver will place you into small law with a small chance at big law in Denver/Colorado, at least initially. Some of the mid firms in Denver (think like 10-50 attorneys) use a lot of Denver grads.

UC Davis is the better school, it will open more doors, but you will be competing in a state with over 50 law schools in a crowded area that also features:

UC Berkeley, Stanford, Pacific McGeorge and who knows how many non-ABA schools.

It really comes down to what you want, Denver if you're okay with what I wrote above, noting that Denver is growing rapidly and is a very desirable place to live.

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:09 pm

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:Davis is out at that price, for sure. What do you want to do and where do you want to work?

Lsat/gpa?


I'm leaning towards IP law, but again that could change. My interest in IP makes Davis look like a better option, but again I could change my mind once attending school. I'm open to moving to either region and I do plan on staying in the area after graduation. Both schools are heavy on regional markets and I'm okay with that. I would be moving from Michigan, so anything new I'm ready for. I have friends in both areas, more in Denver, but I don't want that to be a factor. My GPA was 3.57 Neuroscience and Psychology and my LSAT 159. Not great numbers, but I'm ready to go back to school and will not be retaking or waiting for next cycle. So a decision has to be made. At most Davis would cost roughly $53,000 more than Denver and at least $28,000. I just don't know the markets that well in either state and I'm not sure what my number should be to be cost effective in the end i.e. job/salary afterwards. California's saturated market does make me nervous though.

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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby PoopNpants » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:15 pm

retake

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:15 pm

FullRamboLSGrad wrote:These are pretty large debt figures but aren't out of the park.

Denver will place you into small law with a small chance at big law in Denver/Colorado, at least initially. Some of the mid firms in Denver (think like 10-50 attorneys) use a lot of Denver grads.

UC Davis is the better school, it will open more doors, but you will be competing in a state with over 50 law schools in a crowded area that also features:

UC Berkeley, Stanford, Pacific McGeorge and who knows how many non-ABA schools.

It really comes down to what you want, Denver if you're okay with what I wrote above, noting that Denver is growing rapidly and is a very desirable place to live.


Thank you for your insight! Denver's growth encourages me, but the difference in rankings has my mind spinning. Denver also has close to twice the class size of Davis. I know the level of competition will be higher at Davis, but at Denver I'll be competing with twice as many students.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:17 pm

Your total cost of attendance at these schools is much more than they will be worth. I think deciding not to retake is a huge mistake, and one that you'll regret. You could have either of these schools for free if you improve your lsat. Did you only take the lsat once? It is a learnable test, and a few months of effort/waiting one more year before going to law school could save you $100,000 or more.

Is there a particular reason you won't be retaking?

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:20 pm

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:Your total cost of attendance at these schools is much more than they will be worth. I think deciding not to retake is a huge mistake, and one that you'll regret. You could have either of these schools for free if you improve your lsat. Did you only take the lsat once? It is a learnable test, and a few months of effort/waiting one more year before going to law school could save you $100,000 or more.

Is there a particular reason you won't be retaking?


I had full tuition offers at other schools in the same area or a little higher than Denver, but after visiting they just didn't connect with me. I graduated two years ago and really don't want to wait another year. I'm ready to go back and I don't want to lose that focus. I know I could do better retaking, but I've accepted the amount of debt I'll be in and I am okay with that decision.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:25 pm

pancakes wrote:
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:Your total cost of attendance at these schools is much more than they will be worth. I think deciding not to retake is a huge mistake, and one that you'll regret. You could have either of these schools for free if you improve your lsat. Did you only take the lsat once? It is a learnable test, and a few months of effort/waiting one more year before going to law school could save you $100,000 or more.

Is there a particular reason you won't be retaking?


I had full tuition offers at other schools in the same area or a little higher than Denver, but after visiting they just didn't connect with me. I graduated two years ago and really don't want to wait another year. I'm ready to go back and I don't want to lose that focus. I know I could do better retaking, but I've accepted the amount of debt I'll be in and I am okay with that decision.


Two years is actually very little time away. Out of curiosity, what have you been doing these two years that you have to escape from so desperately that makes six figures of non-dischargeable debt an attractive option?

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:29 pm

I first worked in the medical field to gain hours for medical school, but realized early on med school wasn't for me. Since then I've been working in a small criminal law office. It's not so much an escape as I'm ready to and really want to go to law school this fall. I guess I'm content knowing the amount of debt and the sacrifice I'm making for it. I'll be going this fall, now it just comes down to California or Colorado.

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FullRamboLSGrad
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby FullRamboLSGrad » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:33 pm

I guess another thing OP.


Denver is hurting for students, maybe try to leverage another scholarship out of them.

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:41 pm

FullRamboLSGrad wrote:I guess another thing OP.


Denver is hurting for students, maybe try to leverage another scholarship out of them.


I've attempted twice, once before the first deposit and second after the first deposit. From what I hear they are against negotiating. I would like to try again, but I think I've covered all my angles and I'm not quite sure how to use UC Davis in another attempt.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:55 pm

Your job sounds nice. You should keep it for another year and study up for a retake so you can be happy about your results instead of content. Why not work for one year if you know it will save you 100k?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=249143

FloridaCoastalorbust
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby FloridaCoastalorbust » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:00 pm

go to denver. tough market but not overly-saturated by other law schools, unlike UC Davis. denver is the shit as well. just don't get shit grades.

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby TasmanianToucan » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:08 pm

93 thousand dollars is a hell of a lot of money to pay for a coin flip's chance of becoming a practicing attorney. 146 is even worse for UC Davis.

Why do this to yourself when you have a paying job? The only thing another year will cost you is another year. Be smart.

artistar
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby artistar » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:34 pm

Take all of this advice with a grain of salt.

You said you are fine with the debt and you don't want to wait another year to go to law school. Ok.

Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...

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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby usn26 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:43 pm

TasmanianToucan wrote:93 thousand dollars is a hell of a lot of money to pay for a coin flip's chance of becoming a practicing attorney. 146 is even worse for UC Davis.

Why do this to yourself when you have a paying job? The only thing another year will cost you is another year. Be smart.


+1

artistar wrote:Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...


OP will also be the one paying the bills and scrambling for a job...

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:44 pm

artistar wrote:Take all of this advice with a grain of salt.

You said you are fine with the debt and you don't want to wait another year to go to law school. Ok.

Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...


Thank you for understanding and your encouragement. I was hoping to gain more insight on the markets in CA vs CO. California is just complicated with the amount of schools, but they do have an extensive economy. If anything at least Denver won't experience a water shortage.

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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby Clemenceau » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:11 pm

First of all, is neuroscience even patent bar eligible? Make sure you fulfil all the requirements if you want IP law.

Also, having "friends in both areas" sounds like a pretty weak tie to me. Highly regional markets are also likely to be very ties-sensitive. Small firms bring in business by strengthening their local network. A rando from michigan probably isnt going to help much on that.

So yeah. Over $100k at repayment sounds ill-advised.

Retake.

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:18 pm

Clemenceau wrote:First of all, is neuroscience even patent bar eligible? Make sure you fulfil all the requirements if you want IP law.

Also, having "friends in both areas" sounds like a pretty weak tie to me. Highly regional markets are also likely to be very ties-sensitive. Small firms bring in business by strengthening their local network. A rando from michigan probably isnt going to help much on that.

So yeah. Over $100k at repayment sounds ill-advised.

Retake.


You're right a neuroscience major is not on the qualified major list for the patent bar, but the coursework is. There are several options to qualify other than by major for the patent bar that include certain credit hour requirements for biology, chemistry and physics. At the moment I do not have "ties" to either area. My family and connections are primarily out of Michigan. However, I plan to stay in the area that I go to school. Hopefully with a little luck either school may offer an award increase.

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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby TasmanianToucan » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:26 pm

pancakes wrote:
artistar wrote:Take all of this advice with a grain of salt.

You said you are fine with the debt and you don't want to wait another year to go to law school. Ok.

Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...


Thank you for understanding and your encouragement. I was hoping to gain more insight on the markets in CA vs CO. California is just complicated with the amount of schools, but they do have an extensive economy. If anything at least Denver won't experience a water shortage.

Understanding and encouragement will not pay the bills, or the interest on your non-dischargable student debt. Please understand that no one here (probably) is trying to be mean. If you were about to walk off of a cliff, would you want understanding and encouragement? F*** no! You'd want people to yell, "Hey dumbass that's a f****** cliff!" That's all that is happening here.

pancakes
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby pancakes » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:34 pm

TasmanianToucan wrote:
pancakes wrote:
artistar wrote:Take all of this advice with a grain of salt.

You said you are fine with the debt and you don't want to wait another year to go to law school. Ok.

Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...


Thank you for understanding and your encouragement. I was hoping to gain more insight on the markets in CA vs CO. California is just complicated with the amount of schools, but they do have an extensive economy. If anything at least Denver won't experience a water shortage.

Understanding and encouragement will not pay the bills, or the interest on your non-dischargable student debt. Please understand that no one here (probably) is trying to be mean. If you were about to walk off of a cliff, would you want understanding and encouragement? F*** no! You'd want people to yell, "Hey dumbass that's a f****** cliff!" That's all that is happening here.


I appreciate all the advice, it's what I was looking for. I guess I was just hoping to hear more about either school and the pros and cons of each. I have already made the decision to attend this fall and was interested to see what others thought about each instead of making no decision at all.

PoopNpants
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby PoopNpants » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:41 pm

pancakes wrote:
TasmanianToucan wrote:
pancakes wrote:
artistar wrote:Take all of this advice with a grain of salt.

You said you are fine with the debt and you don't want to wait another year to go to law school. Ok.

Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...


Thank you for understanding and your encouragement. I was hoping to gain more insight on the markets in CA vs CO. California is just complicated with the amount of schools, but they do have an extensive economy. If anything at least Denver won't experience a water shortage.

Understanding and encouragement will not pay the bills, or the interest on your non-dischargable student debt. Please understand that no one here (probably) is trying to be mean. If you were about to walk off of a cliff, would you want understanding and encouragement? F*** no! You'd want people to yell, "Hey dumbass that's a f****** cliff!" That's all that is happening here.


I appreciate all the advice, it's what I was looking for. I guess I was just hoping to hear more about either school and the pros and cons of each. I have already made the decision to attend this fall and was interested to see what others thought about each instead of making no decision at all.



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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:49 pm

pancakes wrote: instead of making no decision at all.


That's the wrong way to think about it. Retaking is making a conscious decision to better your financial and career prospects. Waiting a year is deciding to do the best thing for you and any individual you may eventually pair up with and (who knows?) want to buy a house with or start a family with or any of those things. Six figure debt when you're making 50-60k is going to take a long, long time to pay off.

OP, the comparative benefits of either of the schools you're looking at don't outweigh the HUGE costs associated. Take a year, continue working, and study up for the lsat. Go, next year, to one of these schools for free.

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usn26
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Re: Denver vs UC Davis - help, must decide by 6/15!

Postby usn26 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:51 pm

pancakes wrote:
TasmanianToucan wrote:
pancakes wrote:
artistar wrote:Take all of this advice with a grain of salt.

You said you are fine with the debt and you don't want to wait another year to go to law school. Ok.

Why listen to advice that tells you to wait (when you don't want to) and is concerned about your finances (when you are not)? It is you who will have to spend the extra year studying and waiting, not the people giving the advice. If you want to go now, do it. Davis seems like the better opportunity. But you are correct that the California market is saturated, to put it mildly. And then there are those bar passage stats from Cali...


Thank you for understanding and your encouragement. I was hoping to gain more insight on the markets in CA vs CO. California is just complicated with the amount of schools, but they do have an extensive economy. If anything at least Denver won't experience a water shortage.

Understanding and encouragement will not pay the bills, or the interest on your non-dischargable student debt. Please understand that no one here (probably) is trying to be mean. If you were about to walk off of a cliff, would you want understanding and encouragement? F*** no! You'd want people to yell, "Hey dumbass that's a f****** cliff!" That's all that is happening here.


I appreciate all the advice, it's what I was looking for. I guess I was just hoping to hear more about either school and the pros and cons of each. I have already made the decision to attend this fall and was interested to see what others thought about each instead of making no decision at all.


Toucan, he's already made the decision to jump off the cliff, he's just trying to choose whether he wants to go head first or feet first. BE SUPPORTIVE AND HELPFUL OMG.




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