Best of the Rest?

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stego
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby stego » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:29 pm

nv93 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:Not sure why it took so long before someone told you the rankings from 50-100 are meaningless. It does not matter. UNC is in the 30s or 40s, whatever it is, but it could be ranked 107 by US News and it would still carry the same reputation in the state. You still should not go there if you are not from NC and do not want to work there.

For ADR/arbitration, guess it depends on the market and the type of case. A lot of small firm family law attorneys do it, or sometimes judges after they retire or lose an election. Still, it is only an option after many years of litigation or judicial experience so it isn't a realistic goal. You also just need a really good local rep to get business.


So the best option for someone living in Florida is FSU?


There's at least one enormous UF vs. FSU thread if you search for it but UF, FSU, or Miami are probably all reasonable schools depending on the size of your scholarship, your career goals and where you want to practice. Some people think UF is better than FSU for private practice as opposed to government work.

deadpanic wrote:
nv93 wrote:So what about those U.S. News sub rankings in like International Law (American U)? I meant private international law if anything. What about seeking employment in Canada? The market there is probably relative to the U.S.? I don't see myself practicing beyond 15 years. I could see myself transitioning to working on Wallstreet after.


The rankings are worthless. American is one of the very worst law schools. I believe you are disillusioned that attorneys are super high-powered and get to do a lot of international traveling, or can just transition to a high-paying investment banking position after practicing a few years. None of that is realistic, even for a Yale grad.


Conventional wisdom on TLS is that the specialty rankings don't matter. Are there any exceptions to that? For example, Vermont is ranked very high in environmental law, but I probably wouldn't recommend going there to the typical student. However, having visited the school I know that several students there came from jobs with the EPA and maybe they're hoping to go back to the EPA after they graduate. The school is expensive af but maybe if they got a big scholarship and the EPA just wants admission to the bar w/ some knowledge of environmental law it makes sense?

nv93
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby nv93 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:30 pm

deadpanic wrote:
nv93 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:Not sure why it took so long before someone told you the rankings from 50-100 are meaningless. It does not matter. UNC is in the 30s or 40s, whatever it is, but it could be ranked 107 by US News and it would still carry the same reputation in the state. You still should not go there if you are not from NC and do not want to work there.

For ADR/arbitration, guess it depends on the market and the type of case. A lot of small firm family law attorneys do it, or sometimes judges after they retire or lose an election. Still, it is only an option after many years of litigation or judicial experience so it isn't a realistic goal. You also just need a really good local rep to get business.


So the best option for someone living in Florida is FSU?


If you want to practice in Florida, UF or FSU at a reasonable cost is way better than any other option outside of the T14 with $.


Well, I guess I was right to want to target FSU as my top in state choice. I hear that transferring is considered taboo. Is it because of the difficulty and competitiveness or is it because of other factors as well? I would love to transfer to Emory if I am in the top 25% of my class if I attend FSU (G-d willingly, getting accepted first). Two of my friends go to Emory, so getting living expenses down would be reasonable in that case, but those are huge what ifs.

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stego
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby stego » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:37 pm

nv93 wrote:Well, I guess I was right to want to target FSU as my top in state choice. I hear that transferring is considered taboo. Is it because of the difficulty and competitiveness or is it because of other factors as well? I would love to transfer to Emory if I am in the top 25% of my class if I attend FSU (G-d willingly, getting accepted first). Two of my friends go to Emory, so getting living expenses down would be reasonable in that case, but those are huge what ifs.


Transferring is not taboo. Taboo is enrolling in one law school with the full intention of transferring to another. The reason is that transferring is difficult, being based largely on unpredictable 1L grades, and that transfers generally aren't eligible for merit aid. It also makes it harder to do certain things at your new law school like get on law review. So if you matriculate at one law school, you should feel comfortable graduating from that school, but by all means throw transfer apps if you do well first semester.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:45 pm

stasg wrote:Conventional wisdom on TLS is that the specialty rankings don't matter. Are there any exceptions to that? For example, Vermont is ranked very high in environmental law, but I probably wouldn't recommend going there to the typical student. However, having visited the school I know that several students there came from jobs with the EPA and maybe they're hoping to go back to the EPA after they graduate. The school is expensive af but maybe if they got a big scholarship and the EPA just wants admission to the bar w/ some knowledge of environmental law it makes sense?

Not really. Specialty rankings are really by academics for academics (though they get marketed to students); they're determined by asking academics which schools have the strongest academic programs in those areas. That really means the profs who write the best research, and has almost nothing to do with getting students a job in the specialty field.

Vermont doesn't have very good employment statistics at all. I think it is actually well known for environmental (more so than most other schools are known for whatever specialty they're ranked in), and I think the people who get jobs out of Vermont are probably disproportionately getting jobs in environmental law. But someone would have a better shot at getting an environmental law job out of (say) Yale, or the T14 generally, than out of Vermont, because the job prospects are just so much better generally.

And sure, if someone can go to a school for free and has a guaranteed job after graduation, they can go wherever they like. But that's not a very large group of students.

nv93
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby nv93 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:49 pm

stasg wrote:
nv93 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:Not sure why it took so long before someone told you the rankings from 50-100 are meaningless. It does not matter. UNC is in the 30s or 40s, whatever it is, but it could be ranked 107 by US News and it would still carry the same reputation in the state. You still should not go there if you are not from NC and do not want to work there.

For ADR/arbitration, guess it depends on the market and the type of case. A lot of small firm family law attorneys do it, or sometimes judges after they retire or lose an election. Still, it is only an option after many years of litigation or judicial experience so it isn't a realistic goal. You also just need a really good local rep to get business.


So the best option for someone living in Florida is FSU?


There's at least one enormous UF vs. FSU thread if you search for it but UF, FSU, or Miami are probably all reasonable schools depending on the size of your scholarship, your career goals and where you want to practice. Some people think UF is better than FSU for private practice as opposed to government work.

deadpanic wrote:
nv93 wrote:So what about those U.S. News sub rankings in like International Law (American U)? I meant private international law if anything. What about seeking employment in Canada? The market there is probably relative to the U.S.? I don't see myself practicing beyond 15 years. I could see myself transitioning to working on Wallstreet after.


The rankings are worthless. American is one of the very worst law schools. I believe you are disillusioned that attorneys are super high-powered and get to do a lot of international traveling, or can just transition to a high-paying investment banking position after practicing a few years. None of that is realistic, even for a Yale grad.


Conventional wisdom on TLS is that the specialty rankings don't matter. Are there any exceptions to that? For example, Vermont is ranked very high in environmental law, but I probably wouldn't recommend going there to the typical student. However, having visited the school I know that several students there came from jobs with the EPA and maybe they're hoping to go back to the EPA after they graduate. The school is expensive af but maybe if they got a big scholarship and the EPA just wants admission to the bar w/ some knowledge of environmental law it makes sense?


I'll look into the thread. I didn't even really like UM too much since I would probably be paying a lot of money since I am applying late into the cycle for this year since I haven't even applied there. FSU might offer me money if I did well on the June LSAT, but that's a huge if since it's so late in the cycle to negotiate. I don't want to say 6 figure salary or bust. IMO, FSU would work fine for since I don't mind living in Florida.

How important are bar passage rates to TLS posters? Miami has an abysmal rate relative to FIU in Florida in of itself. Surprising, to say the least. I also heard that the program was somewhat ignored by Shalala at the expense of promoting other programs or the overall education for the undergrad program, is that true as well? I just want to know what I will be getting into with a Miami.

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stego
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby stego » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:52 pm

nv93 wrote:I'll look into the thread. I didn't even really like UM too much since I would probably be paying a lot of money since I am applying late into the cycle for this year since I haven't even applied there. FSU might offer me money if I did well on the June LSAT, but that's a huge if since it's so late in the cycle to negotiate. I don't want to say 6 figure salary or bust. IMO, FSU would work fine for since I don't mind living in Florida.

How important are bar passage rates to TLS posters? Miami has an abysmal rate relative to FIU in Florida in of itself. Surprising, to say the least. I also heard that the program was somewhat ignored by Shalala at the expense of promoting other programs or the overall education for the undergrad program, is that true as well? I just want to know what I will be getting into with a Miami.


You should probably consider sitting out this year and applying for fall 2016.

nv93
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby nv93 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:55 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
stasg wrote:Conventional wisdom on TLS is that the specialty rankings don't matter. Are there any exceptions to that? For example, Vermont is ranked very high in environmental law, but I probably wouldn't recommend going there to the typical student. However, having visited the school I know that several students there came from jobs with the EPA and maybe they're hoping to go back to the EPA after they graduate. The school is expensive af but maybe if they got a big scholarship and the EPA just wants admission to the bar w/ some knowledge of environmental law it makes sense?

Not really. Specialty rankings are really by academics for academics (though they get marketed to students); they're determined by asking academics which schools have the strongest academic programs in those areas. That really means the profs who write the best research, and has almost nothing to do with getting students a job in the specialty field.

Vermont doesn't have very good employment statistics at all. I think it is actually well known for environmental (more so than most other schools are known for whatever specialty they're ranked in), and I think the people who get jobs out of Vermont are probably disproportionately getting jobs in environmental law. But someone would have a better shot at getting an environmental law job out of (say) Yale, or the T14 generally, than out of Vermont, because the job prospects are just so much better generally.

And sure, if someone can go to a school for free and has a guaranteed job after graduation, they can go wherever they like. But that's not a very large group of students.


Good post. I didn't think of it like that. The best bet is just to seek the best school for the cheapest price after all. It just doesn't sit well with me on how much of a point of emphasis the LSAT gets because I am horrible at standardized testing. I wish there was a more holistic way of getting into law school than a test. I am prepared to not get into a t14 or t25. I would barely squeak into a top 30 if I am lucky. I mean getting a "cheaper JD" than a lot of people isn't that bad at the end of the day. Combining it with another degree at the same time, diversifying myself with extra stuff people don't walk around with (ie certifications in the tech sector), etc could pay bigger dividends than a good amount of competitors.

nv93
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby nv93 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:58 pm

stasg wrote:
nv93 wrote:I'll look into the thread. I didn't even really like UM too much since I would probably be paying a lot of money since I am applying late into the cycle for this year since I haven't even applied there. FSU might offer me money if I did well on the June LSAT, but that's a huge if since it's so late in the cycle to negotiate. I don't want to say 6 figure salary or bust. IMO, FSU would work fine for since I don't mind living in Florida.

How important are bar passage rates to TLS posters? Miami has an abysmal rate relative to FIU in Florida in of itself. Surprising, to say the least. I also heard that the program was somewhat ignored by Shalala at the expense of promoting other programs or the overall education for the undergrad program, is that true as well? I just want to know what I will be getting into with a Miami.


You should probably consider sitting out this year and applying for fall 2016.


It depends on how I do on my LSAT. If the score is really good, I cannot waste the opportunity to get accepted w/ money in 2016. I also have personal reasons for wanting to go in Fall 2015, but I rather not get into that right now. Trust me, I really evaluated all my options.

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banjo
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby banjo » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:38 am

stasg wrote:Related question: are any law schools in New England worth attending if you (a) want to practice in New England (b) don't want to live in Boston and (c) can't get into Yale?


I'm somewhat familiar with this market and think the answer is no. New England is a tiny market that gets raided by the T14 and tons of un/underemployed New York grads (St. Johns, NYLS, Pace, Cardozo, etc.) and New Jersey grads. There's also a lot of local competition, with several schools in MA and three in CT. It's not really a great region to start out.

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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jun 11, 2015 1:42 am

nv93 wrote:Good post. I didn't think of it like that. The best bet is just to seek the best school for the cheapest price after all. It just doesn't sit well with me on how much of a point of emphasis the LSAT gets because I am horrible at standardized testing. I wish there was a more holistic way of getting into law school than a test. I am prepared to not get into a t14 or t25. I would barely squeak into a top 30 if I am lucky. I mean getting a "cheaper JD" than a lot of people isn't that bad at the end of the day. Combining it with another degree at the same time, diversifying myself with extra stuff people don't walk around with (ie certifications in the tech sector), etc could pay bigger dividends than a good amount of competitors.

I don't think there's a problem with going to FSU or UM for free (or very cheap) when you know you want to work in Florida, but I don't think extra degrees or certifications are worth paying any extra money (or time) for, unless you have a very specific purpose in mind. Tech certifications are unlikely to give you any advantage in legal hiring, for instance - again, unless there's something very specific you want to do that requires them, but most of the time that's not the case.

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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:18 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
stasg wrote:Conventional wisdom on TLS is that the specialty rankings don't matter. Are there any exceptions to that? For example, Vermont is ranked very high in environmental law, but I probably wouldn't recommend going there to the typical student. However, having visited the school I know that several students there came from jobs with the EPA and maybe they're hoping to go back to the EPA after they graduate. The school is expensive af but maybe if they got a big scholarship and the EPA just wants admission to the bar w/ some knowledge of environmental law it makes sense?

Not really. Specialty rankings are really by academics for academics (though they get marketed to students); they're determined by asking academics which schools have the strongest academic programs in those areas. That really means the profs who write the best research, and has almost nothing to do with getting students a job in the specialty field.

Vermont doesn't have very good employment statistics at all. I think it is actually well known for environmental (more so than most other schools are known for whatever specialty they're ranked in), and I think the people who get jobs out of Vermont are probably disproportionately getting jobs in environmental law. But someone would have a better shot at getting an environmental law job out of (say) Yale, or the T14 generally, than out of Vermont, because the job prospects are just so much better generally.

And sure, if someone can go to a school for free and has a guaranteed job after graduation, they can go wherever they like. But that's not a very large group of students.


UVM's standing in environmental law is almost entirely the product of John Echeverria and the Vermont Law Review (which he has significant control over). It has almost no consequence for the average student, but it can be pretty great if you're at the very top and develop a relationship with him. He's quite influential in his area.

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stego
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby stego » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:32 am

ndirish2010 wrote:UVM's standing in environmental law is almost entirely the product of John Echeverria and the Vermont Law Review (which he has significant control over). It has almost no consequence for the average student, but it can be pretty great if you're at the very top and develop a relationship with him. He's quite influential in his area.


Not UVM. Vermont Law School is a standalone. What you are saying about Prof. Echeverria might be true, but I'd also point out (1) Vermont's secondary journal is dedicated to environmental law, (2) VLS has a clinic dedicated to environmental law, and (3) it has a lot of environmental law course offerings and offers master's degrees in environmental law and policy.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on going to Vermont, but the firsthand impression I got is that the school attracts a lot of environmental law gunners as students (which may or may not be a good thing for those students). Probably over half of the students who enroll there want environmental law.

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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:56 am

stasg wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:UVM's standing in environmental law is almost entirely the product of John Echeverria and the Vermont Law Review (which he has significant control over). It has almost no consequence for the average student, but it can be pretty great if you're at the very top and develop a relationship with him. He's quite influential in his area.


Not UVM. Vermont Law School is a standalone. What you are saying about Prof. Echeverria might be true, but I'd also point out (1) Vermont's secondary journal is dedicated to environmental law, (2) VLS has a clinic dedicated to environmental law, and (3) it has a lot of environmental law course offerings and offers master's degrees in environmental law and policy.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on going to Vermont, but the firsthand impression I got is that the school attracts a lot of environmental law gunners as students (which may or may not be a good thing for those students). Probably over half of the students who enroll there want environmental law.


Whoops, always make that mistake. VLS.

lawman84
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby lawman84 » Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:52 pm

nv93 wrote:
stasg wrote:
nv93 wrote:
deadpanic wrote:Not sure why it took so long before someone told you the rankings from 50-100 are meaningless. It does not matter. UNC is in the 30s or 40s, whatever it is, but it could be ranked 107 by US News and it would still carry the same reputation in the state. You still should not go there if you are not from NC and do not want to work there.

For ADR/arbitration, guess it depends on the market and the type of case. A lot of small firm family law attorneys do it, or sometimes judges after they retire or lose an election. Still, it is only an option after many years of litigation or judicial experience so it isn't a realistic goal. You also just need a really good local rep to get business.


So the best option for someone living in Florida is FSU?


There's at least one enormous UF vs. FSU thread if you search for it but UF, FSU, or Miami are probably all reasonable schools depending on the size of your scholarship, your career goals and where you want to practice. Some people think UF is better than FSU for private practice as opposed to government work.

deadpanic wrote:
nv93 wrote:So what about those U.S. News sub rankings in like International Law (American U)? I meant private international law if anything. What about seeking employment in Canada? The market there is probably relative to the U.S.? I don't see myself practicing beyond 15 years. I could see myself transitioning to working on Wallstreet after.


The rankings are worthless. American is one of the very worst law schools. I believe you are disillusioned that attorneys are super high-powered and get to do a lot of international traveling, or can just transition to a high-paying investment banking position after practicing a few years. None of that is realistic, even for a Yale grad.


Conventional wisdom on TLS is that the specialty rankings don't matter. Are there any exceptions to that? For example, Vermont is ranked very high in environmental law, but I probably wouldn't recommend going there to the typical student. However, having visited the school I know that several students there came from jobs with the EPA and maybe they're hoping to go back to the EPA after they graduate. The school is expensive af but maybe if they got a big scholarship and the EPA just wants admission to the bar w/ some knowledge of environmental law it makes sense?


I'll look into the thread. I didn't even really like UM too much since I would probably be paying a lot of money since I am applying late into the cycle for this year since I haven't even applied there. FSU might offer me money if I did well on the June LSAT, but that's a huge if since it's so late in the cycle to negotiate. I don't want to say 6 figure salary or bust. IMO, FSU would work fine for since I don't mind living in Florida.

How important are bar passage rates to TLS posters? Miami has an abysmal rate relative to FIU in Florida in of itself. Surprising, to say the least. I also heard that the program was somewhat ignored by Shalala at the expense of promoting other programs or the overall education for the undergrad program, is that true as well? I just want to know what I will be getting into with a Miami.


The thing about FSU is that their niche is mainly government jobs. If you're looking to get a high paying private or corporate job out of law school, FSU isn't the right option. Florida is a better option but it's not a particularly great one either. My personal opinion is that Florida is the top law school in this state but I'm biased.

Regardless, FSU isn't a bad school but I'd go in with the expectation that you probably aren't going to get a high paying job coming out of FSU.

As far as transferring goes, I wouldn't go in with the mindset that you're going to do well and transfer. Because you might not. As others have said, if you go, plan to graduate. And if you do well as a 1L...great...transfer. And this is coming from a person that just finished sending in transfer applications.

Thing is that I didn't expect to transfer going into law school. I came from a really mediocre undergrad and my major was in something that most people consider to be an easy major. But I absolutely killed it 1L year. Whereas, my closest friend in my 1L class came from one of the best undergrad schools in the nation with a better undergrad GPA than I had and did nowhere near as well I did in law school.

Basically, don't count your chickens before they hatch.

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stego
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby stego » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:27 am

So would I be correct then that BU and BC are the only "strong regionals" in New England outside of the T14?

I'd be interested in making an informal list of schools that people think have strong regional status, but it's probably easier to list all the states that don't have one.

The test I propose is this: if a 0L (1) has ties to the state/region/metro area, (2) wants to practice there, (3) has a large scholarship, and (4) does not have a guaranteed legal job after law school, would you recommend the school?

In all my time perusing TLS I have never seen some states' law schools mentioned, but from what I gather for the following incomplete list of states the answer for any non-T14 school in the state is generally no: Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Connecticut, Rhode Island, West Virginia, Delaware, Alaska, Oregon, Michigan.

Am I way off base here? What states am I missing?

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stego
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby stego » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:08 pm

Bump

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Zero99
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Re: Best of the Rest?

Postby Zero99 » Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:13 am

Outside of the T14, BU and BC are the strongest regionals for New England. BC isn't technically in Boston, for your previous question. Best bet for any legal job in New England is T14 with significant scholarship or BU/BC for free. For biglaw, only T14.




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