H vs S

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landshoes
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Re: H vs S

Postby landshoes » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:18 pm

eph wrote:I choose H and am thrilled but S would have been great. Went to a small and incredible undergrad and S Law felt sort of the same. Kind of isolated but not necessarily bad (clearly the rest of Stanford is there and has lots going on in the college sort of way). I will be on the lookout for all the horrible people here that landshoes describes. Haven't seen them yet but they must be here somewhere. Not sure there are a lot of humble YHS'ies but we live in hope.


To be fair, my friends are kind of horrible

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rpupkin
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Re: H vs S

Postby rpupkin » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:28 pm

For me, Stanford was better than Harvard (because I knew I wanted to be in California long term), but this thread is in need of a devil's advocate.

If I was unsure of what I wanted to do with my career, and if I truly had no geographic preference, I would choose Harvard.

I spent a couple of years working in DC. I was shocked with how much a median HLS student could get away with, both in the private and public sector. On the East Coast, at least, it's definitely HY > S.

With regard to smaller regional markets, I have the sense that the Harvard name brings something that the Stanford name does not. Does this make logical sense? Probably not. But I do think it's a factor to consider.

As for the culture of the law schools, I think folks are exaggerating the differences. I'll just say that there are plenty of nice people at HLS and plenty of douchebags at SLS. I have a couple of friends who really hated their experience at SLS and regretted attending. One seriously considered transferring to Berkeley just so they could get away from the gunnerish vibe of the school.

My point is not to shit all over SLS here. I personally believe that, overall, SLS probably has a better environment than HLS. But try to keep things in perspective. At the end of the day, you're going to attend an elite law school surrounded by a bunch of competitive students who want shiny things. Don't think that reality doesn't apply to SLS.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: H vs S

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:02 pm

KaNa1986 wrote:
Mack.Hambleton wrote:lol thats a good idea to fund my tuition


also I've read in the past that S has an advantage over H in general biglaw placement, how true is this?


While H can send 15-20 students to Cravath/S&C each, people with LPs (still actively given out) at H have a lot of issues at OCI. I personally know of many 2Ls who didn't get even 1 offer from OCI. Students near the bottom of S's class does not have analogous issues.


any other anecdata on this?

I think I'm leaning H based on general portability, cheaper COL, semester system/less classes, but this does seem to be a big advantage for S on the lower end of the class

eph
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Re: H vs S

Postby eph » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:54 pm

When I visited S many people told me there are no LP's. This is not proof to be sure but it seems to be taken as such. I think I recall seeing somewhere that you need administration approval to give a LP at S (might be an urban legend though). Not sure how you could identify the bottom 10% there since they don't do so in their grading system. If you could identify the bottom 10% of both then the simple fact that H has 560 students and S has 180 would probably made a difference.

To get away from grades retake and go to Y.

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pancakes3
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Re: H vs S

Postby pancakes3 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:06 pm

Stanford has better sports.

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jbagelboy
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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:18 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Whatever you want, your goals are too undirected for them to substantiate a decision here. I'm not saying this as a criticism, it's good at this stage of your career to be flexible and have diverse interests. I'd always go SLS here but the quarters would suck ass. Idk, new england can be pretty awful and Harvard is a huge school which has its perks but a lot of downside

I can't help but comment on the irony of one of the more die hard low-debt full-ride posters winding up ditching the money for H v S as soon as the options opened up. Rich parents yolo



Why in general? Just QOL/weather etc?



I never got off the waitlist so I'm not really in a position to opine on the decision regarding Stanford, but I can tell you that it's more than QOL. Yes, new england winters blow and boston is meh. But more importantly consider the placement differences between the schools. Harvard sends a lot more people into huge wall street firms, but if you're interested in something different, stanford offers that to a significantly larger slice of its class. Nearly every student who wants it at Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Stanford can work at a big firm after graduation, but only stanford really stands out among them in other measurable ways. So it's not only the superior choice but worth a premium IMO.

Then again, I appreciate what other posters have said about the Ivy League schools' advantages on the east coast for reputation and network -- as someone who grew up mostly in california but also spent a lot of time in new england I guess I don't share that bias and Stanford has always seemed like the "best of the best" with the most signaling power for me and the people I'm close to whereas many on TLS fetishize the older eastern schools

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Re: H vs S

Postby zaetoroftheprotoss » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:24 pm

.
Last edited by zaetoroftheprotoss on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:25 pm

i mean obviously harvard is an incredible university and has a great law school and these are tiny distinctions and if you really want to do something and you impress the people you need to impress you'll be able to do it from any of these schools

Bnbsfan
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Re: H vs S

Postby Bnbsfan » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:03 pm

I had the option at both SLS and HLS and was torn between the two schools. However, I wanted MBB or business exit opportunities to be an option if I didn't end up enjoying the legal profession. I felt that the Harvard name and network would give me a greater boost if I decided to go that route. As far as the people at HLS- my experience has been great. I lucked out with a great section and some good friends. Yes you will find some arrogant people here...just like you can find at any top school...but most of the time I am surrounded by people that I genuinely like. I feel like choosing Harvard was the right choice for me- but I'm sure that I would have been happy at Stanford as well.Good luck with your decision- you really can't go wrong!

bsdfree
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Re: H vs S

Postby bsdfree » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:58 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Nearly every student who wants it at Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Stanford can work at a big firm after graduation, but only stanford really stands out among them in other measurable ways. So it's not only the superior choice but worth a premium IMO.


I'm in no position to comment on OP's choice, but I am very curious about what you mean here. In what "other measurable ways" does Stanford stand out in terms of post-graduation opportunities? If we're talking about clerkships, Stanford does very well (24%), but Harvard is not that far behind (17%). In addition, there is a far greater gap between HLS, Chicago (9.5%), and Columbia (8%).

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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:20 pm

bsdfree wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Nearly every student who wants it at Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Stanford can work at a big firm after graduation, but only stanford really stands out among them in other measurable ways. So it's not only the superior choice but worth a premium IMO.


I'm in no position to comment on OP's choice, but I am very curious about what you mean here. In what "other measurable ways" does Stanford stand out in terms of post-graduation opportunities? If we're talking about clerkships, Stanford does very well (24%), but Harvard is not that far behind (17%). In addition, there is a far greater gap between HLS, Chicago (9.5%), and Columbia (8%).


What data are you looking at? Most recent stats, Stanford 30.5%, Chicago 15.7%, Harvard 14.5%

bsdfree
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Re: H vs S

Postby bsdfree » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:40 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
bsdfree wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Nearly every student who wants it at Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Stanford can work at a big firm after graduation, but only stanford really stands out among them in other measurable ways. So it's not only the superior choice but worth a premium IMO.


I'm in no position to comment on OP's choice, but I am very curious about what you mean here. In what "other measurable ways" does Stanford stand out in terms of post-graduation opportunities? If we're talking about clerkships, Stanford does very well (24%), but Harvard is not that far behind (17%). In addition, there is a far greater gap between HLS, Chicago (9.5%), and Columbia (8%).


What data are you looking at? Most recent stats, Stanford 30.5%, Chicago 15.7%, Harvard 14.5%


This was the first link I could find, so my post above used these numbers: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... clerkships

That link was from last year, so maybe not the most up to date. Actually I just looked at the most up to date numbers from US News (e.g., http://premium.usnews.com/best-graduate ... -prospects): Stanford (32.3%), Harvard (21.6%), Chicago (12.9%), Columbia (6.1%). I don't know if these numbers are federal only or state + federal, or if they include clerkships one or more years out, but at least they're from a consistent source. Stanford is again clearly ahead, but it's more like S > H > Chicago > Columbia, rather than S > H = C = C.

Where'd you get your numbers?

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Re: H vs S

Postby JRSmithCantMiss » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:54 pm

For big law aspirations in the NE/Chi/TX market, I feel like harvard has more fungibility

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jbagelboy
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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:06 pm

bsdfree wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
bsdfree wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Nearly every student who wants it at Harvard, Chicago, Columbia, Stanford can work at a big firm after graduation, but only stanford really stands out among them in other measurable ways. So it's not only the superior choice but worth a premium IMO.


I'm in no position to comment on OP's choice, but I am very curious about what you mean here. In what "other measurable ways" does Stanford stand out in terms of post-graduation opportunities? If we're talking about clerkships, Stanford does very well (24%), but Harvard is not that far behind (17%). In addition, there is a far greater gap between HLS, Chicago (9.5%), and Columbia (8%).


What data are you looking at? Most recent stats, Stanford 30.5%, Chicago 15.7%, Harvard 14.5%


This was the first link I could find, so my post above used these numbers: http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... clerkships

That link was from last year, so maybe not the most up to date. Actually I just looked at the most up to date numbers from US News (e.g., http://premium.usnews.com/best-graduate ... -prospects): Stanford (32.3%), Harvard (21.6%), Chicago (12.9%), Columbia (6.1%). I don't know if these numbers are federal only or state + federal, or if they include clerkships one or more years out, but at least they're from a consistent source. Stanford is again clearly ahead, but it's more like S > H > Chicago > Columbia, rather than S > H = C = C.

Where'd you get your numbers?


this is most up to date.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/ ... o/harvard/

us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real

columbia has sucked ass for clerkships the past two years, not really in the running with the others on that count, everyone's doing it a few years out I guess

FWIW Virginia, another big clerkship school, was 15.2% last year

also, i'm not saying clerkship numbers are definitive for overall placement; it's just one figure. Stanford consistently has the best stats of any school (see these numbers and this chart.
Last edited by jbagelboy on Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nerd1
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Re: H vs S

Postby nerd1 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:10 pm

jbagelboy wrote:us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real


So anything a commercial survey magazine reports is unreal?

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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:13 pm

nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real


So anything a commercial survey magazine reports is unreal?


us news and world report is not a reputable magazine. its like quoting hustler.

nerd1
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Re: H vs S

Postby nerd1 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:16 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real


So anything a commercial survey magazine reports is unreal?


us news and world report is not a reputable magazine. its like quoting hustler.


So not reputable mags can't say anything real? Unless you know how they derived their data, what data they are using, you can't say stuff like this.

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jbagelboy
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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:18 pm

nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real


So anything a commercial survey magazine reports is unreal?


us news and world report is not a reputable magazine. its like quoting hustler.


So not reputable mags can't say anything real? Unless you know how they derived their data, what data they are using, you can't say stuff like this.


okay, us news could report real data gathered from somewhere else

but we have ABA reports so i'm confused why we'd look at a tertiary source

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Re: H vs S

Postby Clearly » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:03 pm

nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real


So anything a commercial survey magazine reports is unreal?


us news and world report is not a reputable magazine. its like quoting hustler.


So not reputable mags can't say anything real? Unless you know how they derived their data, what data they are using, you can't say stuff like this.

...we do know those things.

bsdfree
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Re: H vs S

Postby bsdfree » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:03 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:us news is a commercial survey magazine. it doesn't report anything real


So anything a commercial survey magazine reports is unreal?


us news and world report is not a reputable magazine. its like quoting hustler.


Bagel you may not agree with the way USNWR does their ranking but they do compile a lot of hard data about schools, and credit where credit is due: that hard data can be useful. This actually raises an interesting question - why are the numbers so different? My guess is the USNWR number includes later clerkships (e.g., a second clerkship or one after a year as an associate), whereas the LST numbers just include post-graduation clerkships. In some sense the former number is more useful: think of how many SCOTUS clerks are second or third-time clerks (read: all).

Getting back to OP, honestly I think that the stats argument is way overblown. You can do literally anything as a graduate of either of the schools, and the placement difference is a few percentage points at most. For example, in bagel's placement chart Stanford is the best, but Harvard is #3 (Yale is #5, by the way). Earlier in the thread it was said that "only stanford really stands out among them in other [i.e., besides biglaw] measurable ways," but if clerkship numbers are the only thing to support that, I'm not convinced. What's far more important are things like fit (e.g., large school vs. small school), geography (e.g., East Coast vs. West Coast), and career interests (e.g., tech startups vs. DOJ). For example, since OP is from the midwest, maybe see what percentage of each class goes to IL or MI, and contact some hiring partners in good Chicago firms to get their opinions?
Last edited by bsdfree on Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ph14
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Re: H vs S

Postby ph14 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:04 pm

How you do in school will matter far more than anything else in terms of career options. So go where you would rather go or with whoever gives you the most money.

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Re: H vs S

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:17 pm

bsdfree wrote:Bagel you may not agree with the way USNWR does their ranking but they do compile a lot of hard data about schools, and credit where credit is due: that hard data can be useful. This actually raises an interesting question - why are the numbers so different? My guess is the USNWR number includes later clerkships (e.g., a second clerkship or one after a year as an associate), whereas the LST numbers just include post-graduation clerkships. In some sense the former number is more useful: think of how many SCOTUS clerks are second or third-time clerks.

All SCOTUS clerks are second- or third-time clerks. Number of SCOTUS clerks is also not a meaningful statistic to use when choosing a law school.

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Re: H vs S

Postby bsdfree » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bsdfree wrote:Bagel you may not agree with the way USNWR does their ranking but they do compile a lot of hard data about schools, and credit where credit is due: that hard data can be useful. This actually raises an interesting question - why are the numbers so different? My guess is the USNWR number includes later clerkships (e.g., a second clerkship or one after a year as an associate), whereas the LST numbers just include post-graduation clerkships. In some sense the former number is more useful: think of how many SCOTUS clerks are second or third-time clerks.

All SCOTUS clerks are second- or third-time clerks. Number of SCOTUS clerks is also not a meaningful statistic to use when choosing a law school.


I totally agree. My point was that looking at all clerks during a given year (the way USNWR does it) rather than just those who clerk right after law school is a number worth measuring, and that it's not fair to discount that number just because it's USNWR publishing it.

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Re: H vs S

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:31 pm

bsdfree wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bsdfree wrote:Bagel you may not agree with the way USNWR does their ranking but they do compile a lot of hard data about schools, and credit where credit is due: that hard data can be useful. This actually raises an interesting question - why are the numbers so different? My guess is the USNWR number includes later clerkships (e.g., a second clerkship or one after a year as an associate), whereas the LST numbers just include post-graduation clerkships. In some sense the former number is more useful: think of how many SCOTUS clerks are second or third-time clerks.

All SCOTUS clerks are second- or third-time clerks. Number of SCOTUS clerks is also not a meaningful statistic to use when choosing a law school.


I totally agree. My point was that looking at all clerks (the way USNWR does it) rather than just those who clerk right after law school is a number worth measuring, and that it's not fair to discount that number just because it's USNWR publishing it.

Do you have evidence that that's what USNWR is doing, or could it be a difference in when the numbers are compiled? The difference between the USNWR percentages for the class of 2012 and the percentages for the class of 2012 on LST is pretty small.

bsdfree
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Re: H vs S

Postby bsdfree » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:13 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do you have evidence that that's what USNWR is doing, or could it be a difference in when the numbers are compiled? The difference between the USNWR percentages for the class of 2012 and the percentages for the class of 2012 on LST is pretty small.


Yeah I agree. On second thought it's probably due to USNWR's delay in using clerkship numbers. For example, the 2016 rankings appear to use a number close to that for the class of '13. If schools were to report all alumni clerking in a given year the percentage (if measured against the same class size) would be much higher (the USNWR numbers are just slightly higher). I would be interested in seeing those figures as well, though.




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