H vs S

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jbagelboy
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Re: H vs S

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:00 am

rpupkin wrote:
abl wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
abl wrote:Ironically, it's probably worth noting that despite Harvard's slight lay prestige edge, empirically, the career outcomes from S appear significantly better than the career outcomes from H.

I'm sorry if I missed it, but what is your basis for this statement?

You keep pointing out that the reputational differences between HLS and SLS are minor, a position I basically agree with. But then you make the same mistake that you say others are making: you overstate the advantages of SLS based on, as far as I can tell, your intuition about how the two schools compare. (See, e.g.,"tech and VC--Stanford is more prestigious than Harvard.")


Sorry -- by "significant" I meant it in the statistical sense. So I was trying to say that the career outcome difference between S and H appear likely meaningful (and, I should have added, small). But you're right insofar as I was just talking out of my ass: I haven't actually run any statistical tests on the empirical differences between S and H, so I don't actually know if there is any statistical significance to the differences.

(Incidentally, I didn't have any one metric in mind when I made my comment. I don't know that it matters: I'm pretty sure that S empirically ranks ahead of H on just about any career outcomes measure that one could reasonably choose, possibly with the exception of SCOTUS clerkships.)

But yea, what jbagelboy said: I don't think we disagree on anything for purposes of this thread.

Fair enough! Though I must say to jbagelboy: you think this is an example of "the worst kind of tls nitpicking?" C'mon, you've been around these parts awhile; I'm certain you've seen worse :)


I was hyperbolizing. Literally any brut thread is worse.

(<3 you brut)

abl
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Re: H vs S

Postby abl » Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:19 am

UpandDown97 wrote:
I think we can agree to disagree. You have your view, I have mine.

I advise OP to go to Harvard if all else is even. I can't see how all could be even though, but that's besides the point.


Why?

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chuckbass
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Re: H vs S

Postby chuckbass » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:30 am

.
Last edited by chuckbass on Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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radio1nowhere
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Re: H vs S

Postby radio1nowhere » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:18 am

Made this decision myself Mack, and it ended up being pretty close to a coin flip. In the end I thought H's advantage in sheer number of graduates who are out there in BigEverything would lead to better connections. But ya can't go wrong.

Paul Campos
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Re: H vs S

Postby Paul Campos » Sat Jun 13, 2015 10:36 am

Ignore the nonsense about "lay prestige."

This should come down to one thing: would you rather spend three years in Boston or Palo Alto? As an earlier poster said, the weather alone makes these two schools very different experiences. Really, something as basic as your tolerance for winter could make this a very easy decision, at least in one direction. (I find it hard to believe that somebody could spend three random days in Cambridge in February and then three in the Bay Area and still go to H in your circumstances, but I hate northeastern/midwestern winters).

UpandDown97
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Re: H vs S

Postby UpandDown97 » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:00 pm

abl wrote:
UpandDown97 wrote:
I think we can agree to disagree. You have your view, I have mine.

I advise OP to go to Harvard if all else is even. I can't see how all could be even though, but that's besides the point.


Why?


I don't see how all could be even since they are different schools, known for different things, in entirely geographic areas with different climates. It is hard to imagine how someone could look at Boston winters and Palo Alto winters evenly.

If it is the case that all is even or close to it, might as well go to Harvard where the name is better (and as I have asserted, substantially so). But that's because I view lay prestige as valuable, whereas posters on here don't. Fair point on all sides.

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yomisterd
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Re: H vs S

Postby yomisterd » Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:04 pm

Paul Campos wrote:Ignore the nonsense about "lay prestige."

This should come down to one thing: would you rather spend three years in Boston or Palo Alto? As an earlier poster said, the weather alone makes these two schools very different experiences. Really, something as basic as your tolerance for winter could make this a very easy decision, at least in one direction. (I find it hard to believe that somebody could spend three random days in Cambridge in February and then three in the Bay Area and still go to H in your circumstances, but I hate northeastern/midwestern winters).


I think there is also a consideration of where you want to work. If you are shooting for West Coast, S is probably going to be your best shot. But if you want to live/work in NYC or elsewhere on the East Coast, H may be better (just from looking at firm/NP rosters).

Both are great schools so congrats OP. I have really enjoyed H for what its worth, have met super nice folks, and have gotten to do cool stuff. Folks from S could say the same thing. I agree with PC that it comes down to where you want to spend your time, but moreso than just the three years of LS.

Boredlaw
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Re: H vs S

Postby Boredlaw » Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:31 pm

Stanford.

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Pneumonia
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Re: H vs S

Postby Pneumonia » Sat Jun 13, 2015 5:39 pm

yomisterd wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Ignore the nonsense about "lay prestige."

This should come down to one thing: would you rather spend three years in Boston or Palo Alto? As an earlier poster said, the weather alone makes these two schools very different experiences. Really, something as basic as your tolerance for winter could make this a very easy decision, at least in one direction. (I find it hard to believe that somebody could spend three random days in Cambridge in February and then three in the Bay Area and still go to H in your circumstances, but I hate northeastern/midwestern winters).


I think there is also a consideration of where you want to work. If you are shooting for West Coast, S is probably going to be your best shot. But if you want to live/work in NYC or elsewhere on the East Coast, H may be better (just from looking at firm/NP rosters).


OP said explicitly that he had not coast preferences; Campos' advice was likely taking that into account.

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yomisterd
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Re: H vs S

Postby yomisterd » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:48 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
yomisterd wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Ignore the nonsense about "lay prestige."

This should come down to one thing: would you rather spend three years in Boston or Palo Alto? As an earlier poster said, the weather alone makes these two schools very different experiences. Really, something as basic as your tolerance for winter could make this a very easy decision, at least in one direction. (I find it hard to believe that somebody could spend three random days in Cambridge in February and then three in the Bay Area and still go to H in your circumstances, but I hate northeastern/midwestern winters).


I think there is also a consideration of where you want to work. If you are shooting for West Coast, S is probably going to be your best shot. But if you want to live/work in NYC or elsewhere on the East Coast, H may be better (just from looking at firm/NP rosters).


OP said explicitly that he had not coast preferences; Campos' advice was likely taking that into account.


my fault for reading shittily. good luck OP.

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yomisterd
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Re: H vs S

Postby yomisterd » Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:48 pm

Pneumonia wrote:
yomisterd wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:Ignore the nonsense about "lay prestige."

This should come down to one thing: would you rather spend three years in Boston or Palo Alto? As an earlier poster said, the weather alone makes these two schools very different experiences. Really, something as basic as your tolerance for winter could make this a very easy decision, at least in one direction. (I find it hard to believe that somebody could spend three random days in Cambridge in February and then three in the Bay Area and still go to H in your circumstances, but I hate northeastern/midwestern winters).


I think there is also a consideration of where you want to work. If you are shooting for West Coast, S is probably going to be your best shot. But if you want to live/work in NYC or elsewhere on the East Coast, H may be better (just from looking at firm/NP rosters).


OP said explicitly that he had not coast preferences; Campos' advice was likely taking that into account.


my fault for reading shittily. good luck OP.

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WeeBey
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Re: H vs S

Postby WeeBey » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:28 pm

Flip a coin. If you're relieved/disappointed with the outcome, you know which to take.

krads153
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Re: H vs S

Postby krads153 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:54 am

I would go to Stanford, but I don't really like Cambridge at all.

khaleesiqueen1
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Re: H vs S

Postby khaleesiqueen1 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:02 am

Cooley would be TCR in your situation; otherwise retake.

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chem!
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Re: H vs S

Postby chem! » Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:02 am

khaleesiqueen1 wrote:Cooley would be TCR in your situation; otherwise retake.

Stop.

Instinctive
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Re: H vs S

Postby Instinctive » Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:53 am

Just based on OP, there's not any real difference, IMO, for the career outcomes you're shooting for.

I think Stanford protects you better if you're in the "bottom" of the class. Culture/environment/fit should be the deciding factor(s) for you here.

I turned down Harvard and ended up picking between Y/S. Just didn't like the culture at H at all, so ending up being a very easy choice, fairly early in my application cycle (I think I gave an official no in February or early March, before hearing from either Y or S). I'm sure one could feel the same way about Stanford - it's worth noting that because it's much smaller, if you don't fit in with the general population you'll feel it a lot more than I imagine you would at Harvard, where you likely aren't alone.

At SLS? I know I'm the only person there with the career aspirations I have, and sometimes that's lonely.

AspiringAspirant
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Re: H vs S

Postby AspiringAspirant » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:49 am

The idea of Stanford having almost as much lay prestige nationally or globally as Harvard is somewhat laughable to me. I have never run into anyone in the real world with that opinion, and that's coming from someone who grew up on the west coast where Stanford has a tremendous amount of respect from the average person. Not to mention during my time on the East Coast, I have run into many people who don't even view Stanford as the best public school in the nation, they give that title to Chicago. My experience internationally is that there's really no comparing the two. Stanford is respected, but Harvard is a clear rank or often two ranks higher. Of course, this only matters if lay prestige means anything to you, I personally don't think it should factor into your decision at all.

arklaw13
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Re: H vs S

Postby arklaw13 » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:51 am

AspiringAspirant wrote:The idea of Stanford having almost as much lay prestige nationally or globally as Harvard is somewhat laughable to me. I have never run into anyone in the real world with that opinion, and that's coming from someone who grew up on the west coast where Stanford has a tremendous amount of respect from the average person. Not to mention during my time on the East Coast, I have run into many people who don't even view Stanford as the best public school in the nation, they give that title to Chicago. My experience internationally is that there's really no comparing the two. Stanford is respected, but Harvard is a clear rank or often two ranks higher. Of course, this only matters if lay prestige means anything to you, I personally don't think it should factor into your decision at all.


wut

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: H vs S

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:52 am

AspiringAspirant wrote:The idea of Stanford having almost as much lay prestige nationally or globally as Harvard is somewhat laughable to me. I have never run into anyone in the real world with that opinion, and that's coming from someone who grew up on the west coast where Stanford has a tremendous amount of respect from the average person. Not to mention during my time on the East Coast, I have run into many people who don't even view Stanford as the best public school in the nation, they give that title to Chicago. My experience internationally is that there's really no comparing the two. Stanford is respected, but Harvard is a clear rank or often two ranks higher. Of course, this only matters if lay prestige means anything to you, I personally don't think it should factor into your decision at all.

Neither Stanford nor Chicago are public schools.

AspiringAspirant
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Re: H vs S

Postby AspiringAspirant » Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:54 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
AspiringAspirant wrote:The idea of Stanford having almost as much lay prestige nationally or globally as Harvard is somewhat laughable to me. I have never run into anyone in the real world with that opinion, and that's coming from someone who grew up on the west coast where Stanford has a tremendous amount of respect from the average person. Not to mention during my time on the East Coast, I have run into many people who don't even view Stanford as the best public school in the nation, they give that title to Chicago. My experience internationally is that there's really no comparing the two. Stanford is respected, but Harvard is a clear rank or often two ranks higher. Of course, this only matters if lay prestige means anything to you, I personally don't think it should factor into your decision at all.

Neither Stanford nor Chicago are public schools.


My mistake, I meant non-ivy.

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EnderWiggin
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Re: H vs S

Postby EnderWiggin » Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:18 am

As awesome as this recent continued discussion is, I'm pretty sure OP has already had to make a final decision and knows where he will be attending.

iaiava
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Re: H vs S

Postby iaiava » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:12 am

OP What's you decide?

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: H vs S

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:58 am

iaiava wrote:OP What's you decide?


HLS. Talking to current Stanford students was the most valuable part of the process for me. I'll break down what helped me make my decision for future people deciding

-weather is nice at S but Palo alto sucks vs Boston. Suburban wasteland. I don't mind winter and Boston will be more temperate than where I currently live anyway. Also COL is stupid at S.

-when I first started I thought S had an advantage in job placement but don't feel that way after doing more research. Higher clerkship numbers are a product of the tiny class and pressure from within to apply to them. Firm placement seems equal. Straight Ps aren't getting V10 from either, median seems about the same outcomes. Talked to a couple partners at biglaw firms and they said as far as grades go cutoffs were the same.

-quarter system seems like it sucks a big one (at least at S I can't comment about uchicago and others). Seems very stressful and I think I'd be able to perform better with fewer classes to focus on. This was probably the biggest complaint from S students.

-class size for me leaned H. I like having more student groups, a bigger network, being slightly more anonymous than the tiny classes at S.

-as far as non law stuff goes it's hard to quantify and generally irrelevant for most people, but MBB recruits more at H and participates in OCI, whereas they dont at S.


my ultimate take away however was that they are very much peers and it really is based on personal preference

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Vincent
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Re: H vs S

Postby Vincent » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:09 am

hdunlop wrote:People do get LPs or whatever we call them at Stanford I hear so the guy who said you don't have to try is wrong. But the word is the victims literally did not try.


Story passed around at a summer meet up last week is that the two unfortunate victims wrote 2 pages in a 3-4 hour exam, and the professor could not in his right mind justify giving them the same grade as everyone else who wrote 10-20.

But yes, I am curious; OP where are you going?

JusPassItToWill
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Re: H vs S

Postby JusPassItToWill » Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:12 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
iaiava wrote:OP What's you decide?


Boston will be more temperate than where I currently live anyway.


Where do you live now? Antarctica? I don't mind winter either (lived in South Dakota, where it hits -40 windchill sometimes), but I just got through my first winter in Cambridge and it was miserable. Wet, cold, excessive amounts of snow, and exceptionally long, all rolled into one.

Granted, it was the worst winter of all time, but I definitely wouldn't have called it temperate.




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