Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

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haus
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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 12:00 pm

Jaydee wrote:How is William Mitchell a bad decision financially when going there (the Hybrid program) will allow many of us to: 1. Keep our $150,000/yr jobs 2. not relocate/pay additional rent?
With regard to passing (or not passing) the bar even those attending T14s say that they didn't learn much in law school that helped them pass the bar; they had to take an outside class like Barbri or Piper.
Here's the math for me:

Full time law school (T 14): 3 years no income, $200,000 in tuition and room and board. Work full time afterwards making $65,000/year, if lucky, (for 3 years) to learn enough to go solo.

William Mitchell: 4 years of income at $150,000/year; $50,000 in tuition (after scholarship). Keep $150,000/yr job for 3 years while working part time for friends learning the law before going solo.

Jayden,

The comments you are receiving ignore what your situation is and instead focuses on the "normal" student, in large part it what this group knows/understands. But what the others say is indeed useful, for those who are not you, or people like you.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 31, 2015 12:29 pm

Just because a certain choice may work out fine for a very few special snowflakes does not mean that the vast majority of the students there are making a good decision. A school that doesn't give MOST of its students good outcomes, not just a lucky handful, is a shitty school. It has nothing to do with the material learned or class content; it has to do with outcomes.

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haus
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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 12:57 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:Just because a certain choice may work out fine for a very few special snowflakes does not mean that the vast majority of the students there are making a good decision. A school that doesn't give MOST of its students good outcomes, not just a lucky handful, is a shitty school. It has nothing to do with the material learned or class content; it has to do with outcomes.

But you are capable of understanding that Jaydee is not asking for the entire population of students, but instead for the situation that he finds himself in, yes?

Also, keep in mind that this program takes in roughly 80 people. Given that it is currently the only program of its type that it is that hard to beleive that a large portion of the class could well be made up of people who could honestly benefit from it?

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby BigZuck » Sun May 31, 2015 1:02 pm

haus wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:Just because a certain choice may work out fine for a very few special snowflakes does not mean that the vast majority of the students there are making a good decision. A school that doesn't give MOST of its students good outcomes, not just a lucky handful, is a shitty school. It has nothing to do with the material learned or class content; it has to do with outcomes.

But you are capable of understanding that Jaydee is not asking for the entire population of students, but instead for the situation that he finds himself in, yes?

Also, keep in mind that this program takes in roughly 80 people. Given that it is currently the only program of its type that it is that hard to beleive that a large portion of the class could well be made up of people who could honestly benefit from it?

...but you are capable of understanding that the most recent wave of posts was started by someone who took exception to the notion that this school, in general, sucks, yes?

Again you could probably find exceptions to the rule at almost any school in this country. Doesn't mean that a high percentage of those schools aren't bad and probably shouldn't exist.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 1:05 pm

BigZuck wrote:...but you are capable of understanding that the most recent wave of posts was started by someone who took exception to the notion that this school, in general, sucks, yes?

Again you could probably find exceptions to the rule at almost any school in this country. Doesn't mean that a high percentage of those schools aren't bad and probably shouldn't exist.

This wave of responses is not significantly different from the early responses.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby BigZuck » Sun May 31, 2015 1:23 pm

haus wrote:
BigZuck wrote:...but you are capable of understanding that the most recent wave of posts was started by someone who took exception to the notion that this school, in general, sucks, yes?

Again you could probably find exceptions to the rule at almost any school in this country. Doesn't mean that a high percentage of those schools aren't bad and probably shouldn't exist.

This wave of responses is not significantly different from the early responses.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

The school, in general, is not good. It's a bad law school if you want to become a lawyer, which is pretty much the only reason you should go to law school. Some people will benefit from it, lots of people will get nothing out of it. It's the lots we are concerned about. It shouldn't exist because it's a predatory money grab.

Maybe the online program really will REVOLUTIONIZE LEGAL EDUCATION AS WE KNOW IT. Maybe it'll be a great thing for you and the other dude. But given that it is being offered by a TTT whose normal law school is bad, people are rightly skeptical regarding this program. I'm guessing that in the end it will almost certainly be another predatory money grab, even if some people benefit from it. We'll see.

Anyway, it's great that both you and the other dude can tell the future and just KNOW that this program is PERFECT for you. But when someone comes in to defend the school in general I get where other people are coming from. William Hamline Mitchell is not a good law school, that's just reality.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 1:32 pm

BigZuck wrote:I'm not sure what you're trying to say here

The school, in general, is not good. It's a bad law school if you want to become a lawyer, which is pretty much the only reason you should go to law school. Some people will benefit from it, lots of people will get nothing out of it. It's the lots we are concerned about. It shouldn't exist because it's a predatory money grab.

Maybe the online program really will REVOLUTIONIZE LEGAL EDUCATION AS WE KNOW IT. Maybe it'll be a great thing for you and the other dude. But given that it is being offered by a TTT whose normal law school is bad, people are rightly skeptical regarding this program. I'm guessing that in the end it will almost certainly be another predatory money grab, even if some people benefit from it. We'll see.

Anyway, it's great that both you and the other dude can tell the future and just KNOW that this program is PERFECT for you. But when someone comes in to defend the school in general I get where other people are coming from. William Hamline Mitchell is not a good law school, that's just reality.

Perfect, no, but for some it is better than the other alternatives.

It is well past time that legal education alternatives were considered and some of them implemented. Sadly, for the OP, WM (merger has not yet been approved/completed) may not be the right choice (for reasons previously discussed), but who knows what the future will bring.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby crazycanuck » Sun May 31, 2015 1:39 pm

28K/year for an online program is absurd. It needs to be 20% of that at most.

Online is where education is going. Technology and education tools are changing the conversation around "access" to education. It's becoming more than just a conversation about the ability to take on huge sums of loans, it's becoming about learning where, when, and how you want at a cheap cost.

Right now higher ed is becoming a poverty trap making it more difficult to escape poverty if you are in poverty. If you have take out 100's of K in loans to increase your earnings by 10-20K per year, that's a trap, creating a bigger gap between the haves and the have nots. Cheap online education will solve this problem, and it's beginning to develop tools that can really replicate the classroom experience pretty well.

But 28K per year for online? Yeah no. That's terrible. I know a lot about what it costs to develop online curriculums and to get the technology for it, and it's not expensive. This sounds like just a revenue grab for the free unlimited student loans.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby trebekismyhero » Sun May 31, 2015 1:43 pm

I think if they treated it like a lot of executive MBAs are treated then it might work. I think this type of thing would be really helpful for ppl in the federal govt just trying to move up a GS level or a paralegal at a small firm guaranteed a job after they get a JD. So if the program required ppl to already be employed it could work. But as it is right now could take advantage of a lot of less informed folks

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun May 31, 2015 3:01 pm

You should not be going to any law school not named Harvard, Yale or Stanford if you have a job paying 150k.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 3:07 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:You should not be going to any law school not named Harvard, Yale or Stanford if you have a job paying 150k.

If you can do it without leaving your job, why not?

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun May 31, 2015 3:11 pm

haus wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:You should not be going to any law school not named Harvard, Yale or Stanford if you have a job paying 150k.

If you can do it without leaving your job, why not?

Because it's a huge waste of time and money.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 3:15 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
haus wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:You should not be going to any law school not named Harvard, Yale or Stanford if you have a job paying 150k.

If you can do it without leaving your job, why not?

Because it's a huge waste of time and money.

It is a big time suck, but scholarship and tuition reimbursement can do away the money concern.

Plus, this opens up some interesting job possibilities.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun May 31, 2015 3:19 pm

haus wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
haus wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:You should not be going to any law school not named Harvard, Yale or Stanford if you have a job paying 150k.

If you can do it without leaving your job, why not?

Because it's a huge waste of time and money.

It is a big time suck, but scholarship and tuition reimbursement can do away the money concern.

Plus, this opens up some interesting job possibilities.


No, no it doesn't. The job possibilities are only shitty.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 3:30 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:No, no it doesn't. The job possibilities are only shitty.

I understand that you are likely unaware that jobs exist outside if those which flow through OCI, but as a person who has worked for two decades in Fed IT/InfoSec, there are options to leverage this degree both inside the government as well as several private organizations that specialize in helping companies recover from computer security breaches, for highly regulated industries they will have attorneys oversee the project. For this niche those with detailed forensics and/or incident response are strongly preferred.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby timbs4339 » Sun May 31, 2015 3:32 pm

In theory I have no problem with the concept of online legal education. If you're a gainfully employed person who wants to give WM 100k for the online law degree because you want to take a principled stand against brick and mortar legal education, and you understand the degree is essentially just a certificate allowing you to sit for the bar and you're going to have to make sure employment is otherwise secured, go ahead. And I've never been against rich folks who want to do law school for whatever idiosyncratic reason, or people who have been told by their employer "if you get a law degree you can get promoted to this position paying this much extra money."

But in reality, law schools never create programs just for limited numbers of people (i.e. gainfully employed people making 150K who want to go to law school out of a burning desire to become solos doing divorce and PI cases). They create programs for the median student- some liberal arts major either fresh out or 1-2 years out of UG who is willing to trade a large amount of debt for what they think it a guaranteed 85-110K white-collar job. Online law degrees are going to end up pulling in 10 of these people for every 40 year old middle manager who wants a career change.

So when these threads show up, I'm happy that TLS gives advice not only to the OP but also to the lurkers who may not understand that OP's situation is atypical and does not apply to them.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby sparty99 » Sun May 31, 2015 4:13 pm

I'm not sure why anyone would want to attend William Mitchell.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby Jaydee » Sun May 31, 2015 4:44 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:You should not be going to any law school not named Harvard, Yale or Stanford if you have a job paying 150k.

I don't see how a Harvard, Yale, or Stanford law degree will add any value in helping my wife out with her immigration/family law practice.
I rather save the 150k tuition and make 600k in income over the next 4 years while getting my JD.
Again, I do not want to work in biglaw. I cannot work for the government. I'll be close to 50 when I'm done. Law is a second career/part time job/hobby for me

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 5:03 pm

sparty99 wrote:I'm not sure why anyone would want to attend William Mitchell.

Thank you for your input.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby snagglepuss » Sun May 31, 2015 5:10 pm

I know that at least 1/4 of people attending WM intend to return to a business / JD-advantage job upon graduation. The school attracts way more of these types than any T1 or T14 school I know of. WM's brand continues to take a hit each year, but the school was once well-respected and still is to a degree in Minnesota. However, I would not advise someone without a significant scholarship and years of work experience to ever attend the school, but it makes sense for a number of people (particularly through their part-time or online programs) especially when you consider most students are not incurring any additional, law school-related cost of living expenses.

We need to do a better job of tailoring advice to thread OPs. This online WM program may very well be a great option for Jaydee.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun May 31, 2015 5:49 pm

snagglepuss wrote:I know that at least 1/4 of people attending WM intend to return to a business / JD-advantage job upon graduation. The school attracts way more of these types than any T1 or T14 school I know of. WM's brand continues to take a hit each year, but the school was once well-respected and still is to a degree in Minnesota. However, I would not advise someone without a significant scholarship and years of work experience to ever attend the school, but it makes sense for a number of people (particularly through their part-time or online programs) especially when you consider most students are not incurring any additional, law school-related cost of living expenses.

We need to do a better job of tailoring advice to thread OPs. This online WM program may very well be a great option for Jaydee.


I will not believe that this or any other crap school is worth it until someone cites to me, with specificity, at least one job that 1) requires or strongly prefers a JD, 2) would not typically be filled by one of the many desperate under- or un-employed graduates of better law schools, and 3) would provide better pay/job security than whatever job a typical prospective student with many years of experience would otherwise continue working.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 5:58 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
snagglepuss wrote:I know that at least 1/4 of people attending WM intend to return to a business / JD-advantage job upon graduation. The school attracts way more of these types than any T1 or T14 school I know of. WM's brand continues to take a hit each year, but the school was once well-respected and still is to a degree in Minnesota. However, I would not advise someone without a significant scholarship and years of work experience to ever attend the school, but it makes sense for a number of people (particularly through their part-time or online programs) especially when you consider most students are not incurring any additional, law school-related cost of living expenses.

We need to do a better job of tailoring advice to thread OPs. This online WM program may very well be a great option for Jaydee.


I will not believe that this or any other crap school is worth it until someone cites to me, with specificity, at least one job that 1) requires or strongly prefers a JD, 2) would not typically be filled by one of the many desperate under- or un-employed graduates of better law schools, and 3) would provide better pay/job security than whatever job a typical prospective student with many years of experience would otherwise continue working.

Why is it is so hard for you to picture that a job might exist which a JD degree is required, or at least desired, in which the JD itself is not the primary requirement?

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby ExBiglawAssociate » Sun May 31, 2015 6:04 pm

haus wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
snagglepuss wrote:I know that at least 1/4 of people attending WM intend to return to a business / JD-advantage job upon graduation. The school attracts way more of these types than any T1 or T14 school I know of. WM's brand continues to take a hit each year, but the school was once well-respected and still is to a degree in Minnesota. However, I would not advise someone without a significant scholarship and years of work experience to ever attend the school, but it makes sense for a number of people (particularly through their part-time or online programs) especially when you consider most students are not incurring any additional, law school-related cost of living expenses.

We need to do a better job of tailoring advice to thread OPs. This online WM program may very well be a great option for Jaydee.


I will not believe that this or any other crap school is worth it until someone cites to me, with specificity, at least one job that 1) requires or strongly prefers a JD, 2) would not typically be filled by one of the many desperate under- or un-employed graduates of better law schools, and 3) would provide better pay/job security than whatever job a typical prospective student with many years of experience would otherwise continue working.

Why is it is so hard for you to picture that a job might exist which a JD degree is required, or at least desired, in which the JD itself is not the primary requirement?


That's not what I am asking for. I know some JD Advantage jobs exist, but their existence is hardly a reason to go to a school like William Mitchell. First, most of the desirable kinds of these jobs are filled by people from higher-ranked law schools. Second, the ones that are not as desirable probably aren't as picky and wouldn't really jump all over a JD over someone else in the first place.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby haus » Sun May 31, 2015 6:08 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
haus wrote:
Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
snagglepuss wrote:I know that at least 1/4 of people attending WM intend to return to a business / JD-advantage job upon graduation. The school attracts way more of these types than any T1 or T14 school I know of. WM's brand continues to take a hit each year, but the school was once well-respected and still is to a degree in Minnesota. However, I would not advise someone without a significant scholarship and years of work experience to ever attend the school, but it makes sense for a number of people (particularly through their part-time or online programs) especially when you consider most students are not incurring any additional, law school-related cost of living expenses.

We need to do a better job of tailoring advice to thread OPs. This online WM program may very well be a great option for Jaydee.


I will not believe that this or any other crap school is worth it until someone cites to me, with specificity, at least one job that 1) requires or strongly prefers a JD, 2) would not typically be filled by one of the many desperate under- or un-employed graduates of better law schools, and 3) would provide better pay/job security than whatever job a typical prospective student with many years of experience would otherwise continue working.

Why is it is so hard for you to picture that a job might exist which a JD degree is required, or at least desired, in which the JD itself is not the primary requirement?


That's not what I am asking for. I know some JD Advantage jobs exist, but their existence is hardly a reason to go to a school like William Mitchell. First, most of the desirable kinds of these jobs are filled by people from higher-ranked law schools. Second, the ones that are not as desirable probably aren't as picky and wouldn't really jump all over a JD over someone else in the first place.

Once again, you seem to be focusing on the notion of the JD being the primary driving factor. The jobs I am talking about the JD is a factor, maybe even a requirement, but the MORE IMPORTANT requirements are experience, knowledge that exist outside of the JD. I have no worries about the vast majority of T14 JDs because almost none of them have the required experience, knowledge, or skills for the jobs that I will be considering.

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Re: Game changer: William Mitchell College of Law ABA approved ONLINE JD program!

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun May 31, 2015 6:23 pm

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:
snagglepuss wrote:I know that at least 1/4 of people attending WM intend to return to a business / JD-advantage job upon graduation. The school attracts way more of these types than any T1 or T14 school I know of. WM's brand continues to take a hit each year, but the school was once well-respected and still is to a degree in Minnesota. However, I would not advise someone without a significant scholarship and years of work experience to ever attend the school, but it makes sense for a number of people (particularly through their part-time or online programs) especially when you consider most students are not incurring any additional, law school-related cost of living expenses.

We need to do a better job of tailoring advice to thread OPs. This online WM program may very well be a great option for Jaydee.


I will not believe that this or any other crap school is worth it until someone cites to me, with specificity, at least one job that 1) requires or strongly prefers a JD, 2) would not typically be filled by one of the many desperate under- or un-employed graduates of better law schools, and 3) would provide better pay/job security than whatever job a typical prospective student with many years of experience would otherwise continue working.

I'm pretty sure the point is that for someone who already has a job, and who can move up in that job if they get a JD, and doesn't want to quit their job and move but has no part-time LS local to them, an online program would be fine. It's the theory behind the California-only-accredited online programs in California, but available to people who want to be barred elsewhere than California. Given that situation, one ABA accredited online program seems perfectly fine. It's not nearly as much of a ripoff as the full time brick/mortar TTTTs who act as if they're competing with top schools. It would be better if it were cheaper and it sounds entirely unsuitable for anyone who wants the outcome of a traditional law school, so it needs to market itself appropriately, but I don't think it's a ripoff the way that Cooley or TJSL are.




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