Top Law Schools

For every person who gets a special snowflake job out of a crap school, there are at least two others working as paralegals or in secretarial-type positions. I work with one of these folks. He/she has been trying to get a real law job for over SEVEN YEARS and has not been able to. You have to consider the risks with the potential rewards.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

zacharus85 wrote:The thing the WM defenders don't seem to be realizing here is that there is a difference between saying a school is generally a shithole and saying that every student or specific students are stupid for going there (and I don't think people are really insinuating the latter).

Maybe it makes sense for individuals like Haus, but I'm willing to bet that WM makes money off of charging a large number of people full freight somewhere along the line, whether at the brick-and-mortar side, online, or both. With a forced curve and a weak market, it's likely that more people are net losing on this deal than not.

I'm with Nony's faint praise route though: it probably isn't the first TTT I'd put against the wall.

Yeah, and I really don't understand why special cases like Haus would be sharing this information on a message board as if it is supposed to be applicable to anyone else. I mean, maybe it's applicable to like 1-2 other people who will ever read this, but the vast majority of people considering William Mitchell need to know that it is NOT WORTH IT.

Did you read the OP?

Did he ask if the program was good for everyone?

Have I said it was right for everyone?

Is there any other questions that no one has asked that you would like to answer now?

BigZuck wrote: Also, Haus, since you've brought it up I've gotta ask- isn't the scholarship being better than anything else on the table thing more about your lsat score than anything else? Like, it's more a condemnation of you than a positive point in the school's favor, no? Just guessing.

I understand that Zuck is primarily serving as a troll, but I went back this morning and pulled the 509s for the 25 schools that are on the first page od USWR and took a look.

15 of the 25 schools appear to offer conditional scholarships. Of these some schools appear to stand out as bad actors. Mason for instance has reduced or revoked over 40% of their scholarships foe the last three years (one year they hit over 66% of their scholarships). Rutgers-Camden also had a year where they reduced or revoked over 66%. If you simple take the average of the reduce/revoke rates provided you have over a 25% rate, which is simply poor form by these schools.

So, yes I do think it says something positive about the schools who opt not to play these games, as such here are the 10 schools that claim to not offer conditional scholarships.

GULC
GW
Fordham
Univ of Maryland
Univ of Huston **
Georgia State
Chicago-Kent
Loyola-Chicago
Marquette
William Mitchell

** mark of shame for Houston, their 509 shows ZERO scholarships/grants for the part-time class

As far as percentage of part timers receiving scholarships (those with over 50% PT w/ scholarship):

Chicago-Kent 71% (67% of these less than half tuition)
WM 68% (40%)
Loyola-Chicago 64% (96%)
SMU 57% (93%)

And for the earlier complaints about tuition list price, yes it is all expensive:

Worst offenders:

Brooklyn $41,681
Fordham $39,472
GW $38,430

Least worst offenders:
Marquette $24,450
UNLV $$26,945
Georgia State $27,550

ETA:
For those that offer resident rates, the best tuition cost are:
Georgia State $12,844
UCONN $18,296
UNLV $18,713

I'm not understanding how that is responsive to William Mitchell's online program being yet another TTT money grab. Also, that totally ignores the money thing. You said your offer at WM was the best one you received. What was your lsat score and what were your offers at all the schools that accepted you?

haus wrote:

BigZuck wrote: Also, Haus, since you've brought it up I've gotta ask- isn't the scholarship being better than anything else on the table thing more about your lsat score than anything else? Like, it's more a condemnation of you than a positive point in the school's favor, no? Just guessing.

I understand that Zuck is primarily serving as a troll, but I went back this morning and pulled the 509s for the 25 schools that are on the first page od USWR and took a look.

15 of the 25 schools appear to offer conditional scholarships. Of these some schools appear to stand out as bad actors. Mason for instance has reduced or revoked over 40% of their scholarships foe the last three years (one year they hit over 66% of their scholarships). Rutgers-Camden also had a year where they reduced or revoked over 66%. If you simple take the average of the reduce/revoke rates provided you have over a 25% rate, which is simply poor form by these schools.

So, yes I do think it says something positive about the schools who opt not to play these games, as such here are the 10 schools that claim to not offer conditional scholarships.

GULC
GW
Fordham
Univ of Maryland
Univ of Huston **
Georgia State
Chicago-Kent
Loyola-Chicago
Marquette
William Mitchell

** mark of shame for Houston, their 509 shows ZERO scholarships/grants for the part-time class

As far as percentage of part timers receiving scholarships (those with over 50% PT w/ scholarship):

Chicago-Kent 71% (67% of these less than half tuition)
WM 68% (40%)
Loyola-Chicago 64% (96%)
SMU 57% (93%)

And for the earlier complaints about tuition list price, yes it is all expensive:

Worst offenders:

Brooklyn $41,681
Fordham $39,472
GW $38,430

Least worst offenders:
Marquette $24,450
UNLV $$26,945
Georgia State $27,550

ETA:
For those that offer resident rates, the best tuition cost are:
Georgia State $12,844
UCONN $18,296
UNLV $18,713

What are the actual numbers for scholarships given/scholarships lost?

timbs4339 wrote:What are the actual numbers for scholarships given/scholarships lost?

All I have is the info from the 509s. From this one can see (bear with me as this is from memory, as I am sitting in a meeting right now).

% of students with scholarship
% of students with scholarships less than half of tuition
25, 50, 75 levels for scholarships
(All the above separated for full/part time, sadly part timers often seem to get lesser deals)

For those schools that have conditional scholarships, for the last three years the # of scholarships had been offered and the number that had been reduced/revoked, but this does not say how much money was taken away, nor does it break down by full/part time.

If you tell me what it is that you want to see, if I can get it from the source data I will give it a shot.

==conditional===

[School] [% w/ scholly] [50th% scholly] [% of scholarships reduced/revoked last year]

George Mason 24.8% $8,000 40.7%
Uconn 39.3% $7,000 0.0%
SMU 56.9% $10,000 13.3%
Temple 22.6% $5,625 11.0%
Lewis and Clark 18.7% $10,000 1.0%
Univ of Denver 32.5% $15,750 12.4%
Loyola Marymount 27.5% $12,000 24.6%
Univ of San Deigo 38.2% $15,000 42.5%
American 14.9% $5,040 0.0%
Brooklyn 40.4% $22,725 11.9%
Rutgers - Newark 27.2% $8,000 21.0%
UNLV 16.5% $9,558 36.4%
Rutgers - Camden 13.5% $7,500 28.3%
Seattle Univ 24.3% $10,000 33.8%
Univ of Baltimore 22.2% $8,000 39.1%

===non-conditional===

[School] [% w/ scholly] [50th% scholly]
GULC 5.4% $6,250
GW 19.9% $11,000
Fordham 42.5% $10,000
Univ of Maryland 44.3% $6,000
Univ of Houston 0.0% $-
Georgia State 18.9% $5,000
Chicago-Kent 71.1% $10,349
Loyola -Chicago 64.1% $8,750
Marquette 38.9% $4,000
Mitchell 68.0% $13,544

haus wrote:

timbs4339 wrote:What are the actual numbers for scholarships given/scholarships lost?

All I have is the info from the 509s. From this one can see (bear with me as this is from memory, as I am sitting in a meeting right now).

% of students with scholarship
% of students with scholarships less than half of tuition
25, 50, 75 levels for scholarships
(All the above separated for full/part time, sadly part timers often seem to get lesser deals)

For those schools that have conditional scholarships, for the last three years the # of scholarships had been offered and the number that had been reduced/revoked, but this does not say how much money was taken away, nor does it break down by full/part time.

If you tell me what it is that you want to see, if I can get it from the source data I will give it a shot.

Don't kill yourself (I was in delegation mode all day yesterday). It's just that the 66% numbers seemed wonky to me, like it might be a school that gives 6 conditional scholys as part of some very limited program and 2 people lose the scholys.

timbs4339 wrote: Don't kill yourself (I was in delegation mode all day yesterday). It's just that the 66% numbers seemed wonky to me, like it might be a school that gives 6 conditional scholys as part of some very limited program and 2 people lose the scholys.

Ahhh, I see what you are getting at.

The two worst performances (the ones I had called out) were both for the students who mitriculated in the 2011-2012 academic year. Mason had 59 students who entered with scholarships and 40 of these were reduced or revoked. On this same year Rutgers-Camden had 127 students entering with scholarships and 86 of these were reduced or revoked.

Both of these entering classes had over 66% of those who received scholarships had their scholarships reduced or revoked.

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Golly, it's almost like the target demo for this site isn't 25-year veterans of Electrical Engineering work in Silicon Valley, but rather K-JDs who are starting their career and need advice on optimal debt to employability ratios! And it's also maybe plausible that the legal industry now is entirely different than electrical engineering 25 years ago: did electrical engineering schools charge exorbitant prices while openly misleading students about their employment prospects for years, to the point where HALF of the graduates don't get jobs in the field?

But gosh, if the above is true, then that would mean this poster has literally no idea what he's talking about when he claims posters here are 'spewing off bitterness!'

There are lots of target demos for this site, not just K-JDs.

Why would anyone pay so much to go to an online program from a terrible law school? There are so few cases that this is a good idea. It's a hybrid program so you attend classes there at the beginning and end of the semester.

The ATL article projected costs at $111,300 for a 4 year part time online degree.

I find this impossible to justify. Even the OP who's wife is turning away work would have to work a long time to make back up the cost.


http://abovethelaw.com/2013/12/law-scho ... l-get-out/

How do you see this degree as a ticket out of engineering?
What job are you hoping to pursue with your degree?

As for the bitterness I wouldn't discount it. I think you may need to understand the work involved and the cost. I doubt you spent $200,000 or more on an engineering degree decades ago. This online degree is going to cost you $111,000 at least and four years. What job are you going to get that is worth that to you?

Also, this class isn't fully on line you have to attend some classes at the beginning and end of the semester. I don't think they've even opened the program yet.

Edit: deleted quote for posters privacy.

Tls2016 wrote: Also, this class isn't fully on line you have to attend some classes at the beginning and end of the semester. I don't think they've even opened the program yet.

You are correct, the program is not fully online. Most semesters there is a seven day session near the end of the semester held on campus. Also for the 1st and 3rd semesters there are roughly one week sessions at the beginning of the semester, something like an orientation.

The program is underway. The first cohort started in Jan 2015 (I am in this group), the second started in Sep 2015 (the third is due to start in Sep 2016).