Northwestern vs. Michigan

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intl2015
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Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby intl2015 » Sat May 23, 2015 2:30 pm

Hi everyone! I have two really great offers on the table, and I'm having a bit of a hard time deciding.

My choices:
- Michigan, $135k scholarship.
- Northwestern, $165k scholarship.

A bit about me:

I am an international student with a business background and some W/E. I am mostly interested in Biglaw. My preferred markets are probably NYC or Chicago, but I would love to work in an international office of a US law firm at some point, either on a permanent basis or temporarily (for example, in London/Frankfurt).

Visa (to stay in the US) is a non-issue for me.

Financing:
My SO will be moving with me and we expect that her earnings will cover most of the living expenses. My relatives are willing to help us out and can give/lend us the money to cover the difference between tuition and the scholarship at Michigan and help with living expenses for the first couple of months.


I am a bit concerned about Michigan's relatively lackluster biglaw numbers post-recession. Can it mostly be attributed to self-selection into PI? Would I need a higher GPA at Mich compared to NU to have a good chance at Biglaw?

I'd appreciate your input!

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POTUSorSCOTUS
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby POTUSorSCOTUS » Sat May 23, 2015 2:32 pm

Easy, NU.

MadwomanintheAttic
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby MadwomanintheAttic » Sat May 23, 2015 2:41 pm

I think NU is the definite winner here, especially given Chicago is one of your desired markets.

BillClinton Jr
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby BillClinton Jr » Sat May 23, 2015 3:59 pm

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:I think NU is the definite winner here, especially given Chicago is one of your desired markets.

+1

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby DaftAndDirect » Sat May 23, 2015 4:03 pm

Definitely NU. I'm a recent Michigan grad who had 3 years w/e and a consistent, focused interest in Big Law. UMich was wonderful, but sort of an awkward fit academically based on my goals.

Also, living with an SO is more common at NU than it is at UMich. I think you'll have an easier time bonding w/ classmates at NU.

Congratulations and good luck!

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sat May 23, 2015 6:11 pm

Another vote for NW

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat May 23, 2015 7:13 pm

Mack.Hambleton wrote:Another vote for NW

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WhiskeyAndCupcakes
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby WhiskeyAndCupcakes » Sat May 23, 2015 9:17 pm

Last edited by WhiskeyAndCupcakes on Fri May 29, 2015 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Florence Night
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby Florence Night » Sat May 23, 2015 10:06 pm

.
Last edited by Florence Night on Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Sun May 24, 2015 1:27 am

You guys married? If not, LOL at living off your S/O..do people seriously do that shit before marriage?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby jbagelboy » Sun May 24, 2015 12:05 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:You guys married? If not, LOL at living off your S/O..do people seriously do that shit before marriage?


sure they do. this isn't 1965

intl2015
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby intl2015 » Sun May 24, 2015 1:09 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:You guys married? If not, LOL at living off your S/O..do people seriously do that shit before marriage?


We are, but that isn't at all relevant to this discussion. I don't see how you can make such sweeping statements about people's living of financial arrangements without actually knowing their situation and their relationship. Some people choose not to get married, some take turns taking time off from work to go to school, stay home with children, etc.

Thanks to everyone who posted something that actually pertains to my question! If anyone else would like to contribute as well, I'd appreciate it. In particular, I'm still interested in whether a median student would have more biglaw opportunities open to him/her at NU than at UMich.

MadwomanintheAttic
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby MadwomanintheAttic » Sun May 24, 2015 1:20 pm

intl2015 wrote: I'm still interested in whether a median student would have more biglaw opportunities open to him/her at NU than at UMich.



BigLaw from Mich at median is a coin flip. You should read the Ask a Mich 1L/2L/3L page in the Ask a Law Student thread. There was a lengthy discussion starting on page 83 regarding BigLaw at Michigan. I think what hurts Michigan is the lack of a strong home market opposed to NU which of course has Chicago, for that very reason NW will always be better positioned for more biglaw opportunities opposed to someone coming from Michigan.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Sun May 24, 2015 1:56 pm

POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:Easy, NU.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun May 24, 2015 1:57 pm

Northwestern is the better choice based on your career goals.

Have you visited both law schools ? May be important since they are situated in very different environments. NU is located in a very upscale section of Chicago (separate from the undergraduate school located in Evanston) & Michigan is located in a great college town.

Will your SO be seeking employment ? If so, this also may be a factor to consider.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun May 24, 2015 2:13 pm

Another reason to attend NU is that you'll become acquainted with living in one of your two target cities. You may well end up with job offers in both NYC & Chicago. The decision might be easier if you're familiar with at least one of your desired destinations.

CTT
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby CTT » Mon May 25, 2015 1:21 am

There is not a difference between NU and UM in terms of options. Michigan has more PI focus and thus somewhat fewer people doing big law (but a higher overall LST employment score and a lower under-employment score). At least in my class, a disproportionate number of people at the top of the class are 100 percent PI. It's a little easier to sell interest in Chicago from NU. Tuition + cost of living difference pretty much wipes out the scholarship difference. The OCI outcomes for a median student in the class of 2016 were substantially better than a coin flip--I would guess 90% or more of median students got offers, at least some went V10.

Questions should be:

1) is it substantially easier for your SO to get a job in Chicago?
2) Where do you think you would rather live for three years?

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Mon May 25, 2015 5:03 pm

CTT wrote:There is not a difference between NU and UM in terms of options. Michigan has more PI focus and thus somewhat fewer people doing big law (but a higher overall LST employment score and a lower under-employment score). At least in my class, a disproportionate number of people at the top of the class are 100 percent PI. It's a little easier to sell interest in Chicago from NU. Tuition + cost of living difference pretty much wipes out the scholarship difference. The OCI outcomes for a median student in the class of 2016 were substantially better than a coin flip--I would guess 90% or more of median students got offers, at least some went V10.


doubt

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon May 25, 2015 7:19 pm

intl2015 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:You guys married? If not, LOL at living off your S/O..do people seriously do that shit before marriage?


We are, but that isn't at all relevant to this discussion. I don't see how you can make such sweeping statements about people's living of financial arrangements without actually knowing their situation and their relationship. Some people choose not to get married, some take turns taking time off from work to go to school, stay home with children, etc.

Thanks to everyone who posted something that actually pertains to my question! If anyone else would like to contribute as well, I'd appreciate it. In particular, I'm still interested in whether a median student would have more biglaw opportunities open to him/her at NU than at UMich.


OK. NU tends to place slightly more in recent years into biglaw. But that could be explained by the fact that NU students are the brokest of the broke and more people go into biglaw to pay off higher debt amounts. (NU has the highest debt amounts out of any T-14 and third highest out of ALL law schools). The average debt load at NU is 163k.

I speculate it's because NU students tend to be older and have less family money. I mean, fuck, law school in general is a good way for chill trust fund kids to do jack shit for 3 years to "work" in a relatively chill PI job. (I met a ton of these in law school.) So my theory is that old motherfuckers who HAD to work for a living (NU students) tend to have less family money (I mean, they had to work for a living in the first place).

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings

Chrstgtr
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby Chrstgtr » Mon May 25, 2015 7:49 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
intl2015 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:You guys married? If not, LOL at living off your S/O..do people seriously do that shit before marriage?


We are, but that isn't at all relevant to this discussion. I don't see how you can make such sweeping statements about people's living of financial arrangements without actually knowing their situation and their relationship. Some people choose not to get married, some take turns taking time off from work to go to school, stay home with children, etc.

Thanks to everyone who posted something that actually pertains to my question! If anyone else would like to contribute as well, I'd appreciate it. In particular, I'm still interested in whether a median student would have more biglaw opportunities open to him/her at NU than at UMich.


OK. NU tends to place slightly more in recent years into biglaw. But that could be explained by the fact that NU students are the brokest of the broke and more people go into biglaw to pay off higher debt amounts. (NU has the highest debt amounts out of any T-14 and third highest out of ALL law schools). The average debt load at NU is 163k.

I speculate it's because NU students tend to be older and have less family money. I mean, fuck, law school in general is a good way for chill trust fund kids to do jack shit for 3 years to "work" in a relatively chill PI job. (I met a ton of these in law school.) So my theory is that old motherfuckers who HAD to work for a living (NU students) tend to have less family money (I mean, they had to work for a living in the first place).

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... t-rankings


Older students=students less likely to rely on parents=students more likely to have debt. At the end of the day the differences between debt between law schools is insignificant when compared to the salary of a BL associate and irrelevant to PI folks thanks to LRAPs. When you spread out the debt differences over 10 year payment plans the debt differences become even less significant.

Lately Michigan has been trending downwards in hiring trends and there is no real explanation for that. It cannot be argued that Michigan folks are less BL focused now than they were several years ago especially when you consider how the debt loads are becoming ever more significant nowadays. Michigan's glory days were a few generations ago when it was seen as a peer of Harvard. Not anymore. The partners from those days are retiring and Michigan will continue to suffer in the future as a result.

There is a 11% spread between NU and Michigan when it comes to BL+Fed Clerks. That is significant. It becomes even more significant when you consider that about 10% of NU's class are JD-MBAs when go into business jobs that are just as difficult if not more difficult to get than BL jobs. Yet these jobs are classified as "underemployed" because they are JD advantage jobs. But those JD advantage jobs were actually preferred by those who take them as most JD-MBAs are MBA students who just decided to also pick up a JD.

NU does a good job of showing its salary breakdowns of its graduates (check out the breakdown of JD advantage jobs for proof of above). http://www.law.northwestern.edu/profess ... index.html It is pretty obvious few aren't making top dollar.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon May 25, 2015 7:58 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:Older students=students less likely to rely on parents=students more likely to have debt. At the end of the day the differences between debt between law schools is insignificant when compared to the salary of a BL associate and irrelevant to PI folks thanks to LRAPs. When you spread out the debt differences over 10 year payment plans the debt differences become even less significant.


I don't think you know any rich people....rich parents will always pay tuition, regardless of how old their kids are. That's just how rich people fly.

LRAP is a piece of shit that is going to get rescinded/revamped in coming years. Only retards would rely on LRAPs/PLSF. HTH. If you're interested in PI always better to take less debt (obviously) since less debt is a billion times better than relying on LCRAP.

I think here it makes sense to go to NU since it is cheaper - but don't get me started on old poors paying top dollar for law school. Most NU grads are clearly just poor broke motherfuckers who retardedly took out 164k in loans to be a lawlyer. I have no sympathy for dumb poors. And you can't argue with the fact that NU grads have the highest debt on average (and by a good 30-40k more than many of the T-14s). Anyway, to summarize, on average NU placed something like ~5-6% more into biglaw in recent years than Michigan. I don't know if that means there's a real advantage or if they are just the poorest motherfuckers out of the T-14.

Chrstgtr
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby Chrstgtr » Mon May 25, 2015 8:21 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:Older students=students less likely to rely on parents=students more likely to have debt. At the end of the day the differences between debt between law schools is insignificant when compared to the salary of a BL associate and irrelevant to PI folks thanks to LRAPs. When you spread out the debt differences over 10 year payment plans the debt differences become even less significant.


I don't think you know any rich people....rich parents will always pay tuition, regardless of how old their kids are. That's just how rich people fly.


True, but there is no reason to assume there is any reason to believe that Michigan or NU has more rich kids than the other. So when those non-rich kids get older they will be completely on their own. I don't know anyone at all who was their late 20s or early 30s when they started LS and is receiving help from their parents. Usually their lack of family money is among the reasons why they go to LS at a relatively late age.

Sure maybe Michigan actually does have more rich kids. Sure maybe Michigan kids getting placed in govn't and PI could've gotten BL. But that it hasn't actually happened so it is much more difficult to say with certainty. Michigan is obviously a fine school but for people seeking BL it makes no sense rely on counterfactuals when the potential downside is missing the BL boat.

Sure it doesn't make sense to take out huge sums of debt to go to LS but the differences in debt averages don't have any causal impact on the number of people from NU/Michigan seeking BL. 130 vs. 160 is a whole lot of debt that needs BL to be pay it off and that 30K is a few months of extra work compared to what seems to be a higher chance of not getting BL at all from Michigan. A 10% (or over 20% if you include NU's business jobs as BL equivalents) chance at BL seems a reasonable counterweight to debt that would only force a BL associate into working a few more months.

Obviously taking out huge debt isn't smart. But 160 is nothing close to close to sticker debt and is actually close to what HYS aim to leave their graduates to pay for school with all loans and max aid.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Northwestern vs. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon May 25, 2015 8:32 pm

Chrstgtr wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
Chrstgtr wrote:Older students=students less likely to rely on parents=students more likely to have debt. At the end of the day the differences between debt between law schools is insignificant when compared to the salary of a BL associate and irrelevant to PI folks thanks to LRAPs. When you spread out the debt differences over 10 year payment plans the debt differences become even less significant.


I don't think you know any rich people....rich parents will always pay tuition, regardless of how old their kids are. That's just how rich people fly.


True, but there is no reason to assume there is any reason to believe that Michigan or NU has more rich kids than the other. So when those non-rich kids get older they will be completely on their own. I don't know anyone at all who was their late 20s or early 30s when they started LS and is receiving help from their parents. Usually their lack of family money is among the reasons why they go to LS at a relatively late age.


I have 4 friends from law school who went to law school at a late age. All of their parents have somewhere in the vicinity of between 10mm to 50mm and they went to law school since they were fucking around not doing a profession for a few years and their parents demanded that they go to law school on their dime to start a "serious career." These people don't really go to law school because they want to - it's because their parents want them to and will pay for it. Two of them have no intention of staying in law (and like 3 of them are doing PI right now since it's funner and chiller compared to biglaw). I'm sure a lot of the older rich kids are the same - it's all about parental pressure.

Sure it doesn't make sense to take out huge sums of debt to go to LS but the differences in debt averages don't have any causal impact on the number of people from NU/Michigan seeking BL. 130 vs. 160 is a whole lot of debt that needs BL to be pay it off and that 30K is a few months of extra work compared to what seems to be a higher chance of not getting BL at all from Michigan. A 10% (or over 20% if you include NU's business jobs as BL equivalents) chance at BL seems a reasonable counterweight to debt that would only force a BL associate into working a few more months.

Obviously taking out huge debt isn't smart. But 160 is nothing close to close to sticker debt and is actually close to what HYS aim to leave their graduates to pay for school with all loans and max aid.


30k is around another year of biglaw not "a few months." I guess we'd need a more specific breakdown of who has what loans (since I assume these numbers are means, not medians) to really see what's going on. This way we can tell if a lot of people have 30k loans balanced by people with 200k loans or people tend to have loans in the 100ks).

I think 160k debt is fucking retarded, but i also graduated a few years ago when law school didn't cost 300k. Debt is NOT relative though - because you should be looking at SALARIES (not total cost of law school) and salaries have NOT gone up since 2007 while COL has. So people paying top dollar for law school these days are just too stupid for their own good.

This is what big stores do to tell you on a product by the way - they up the price then give you a "discount" and you think you're saving real money when you're not. Law school/higher education in general is a bullshit scam. And the worst part is that the poor kids will think they are actually getting something (like "prestige" or "respect") when none of that shit matters. What matters is MONEY. And they will be up to their knees in debt when nobody gives a shit that they are a lawyer and they live in some crack ho apartment eating cockroaches and ramen for dinner.




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