Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

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Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Michigan ($$)
23
88%
NYU (sticker)
3
12%
 
Total votes: 26

Kirk90
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Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Thu May 21, 2015 9:39 am

I'm still waiting to here back from NYU about scholarship information, but I'm not anticipating much since I was admitted off the wait list. Michigan awarded me $28,000/yr. The total COA per year is about $42k/yr for Michigan and $84k/yr for NYU. Since I want to work corporate in NYC, I figure NYU is the more reliable option, but I'm not sure if that "reliability" is worth being in twice as much debt. And if it's not worth being in twice as much debt, just how much more debt than Michigan is NYU worth?

Edit: NYU awarded a total of $25k over 3 years, bringing total COAs to:
NYU COA = $227k
Michigan COA = $126k
Last edited by Kirk90 on Fri May 22, 2015 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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usn26
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby usn26 » Thu May 21, 2015 9:47 am

Not that much.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 21, 2015 9:50 am

In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Kirk90
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Thu May 21, 2015 9:56 am

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT


-Michigan vs. NYU
-Michigan COA = 42k/yr, NYU COA = 84k/yr (still awaiting scholarship info from NYU)
-Financing with loans/scholarships, no family assistance
-NYC
-Not dead set on anything, though most likely not PI
-LSAT/GPA is within the 25th-75th percentile for both schools

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 21, 2015 10:25 am

retake may be your best option, depending on information you seem reluctant to give.
However, of the two options you're presenting, Michigan wins no contest.

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ILoveYou
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby ILoveYou » Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 am

Yeah you seem weirdly secretive about your numbers, but a retake seems like the right call here. If those are your options, I have to think you're in the range where a few points would bump you into better $$ at some T14s, but if you're sticking with these two options obviously go to Michigan.

BillClinton Jr
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby BillClinton Jr » Thu May 21, 2015 10:28 am

I agree with the folks who are telling you to retake but of these two options, if you have strong ties to NY and want to work in NY even with the loans I can see NYU being the better option especially with Michigan's fairly low BigLaw + Fed placement. Granted, after speaking to folks there it seems self selected since so many of students are PI driven anyways. Goodluck though. It's a good problem to have: choosing between two great schools.

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RareExports
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby RareExports » Thu May 21, 2015 10:35 am

Michigan and NYU are peers in the eyes of hiring partners. Don't let USNWR fool you. Sure NYU has been ahead in the rankings for the last decade or so, but it's only usually been by 1-3 ranks, which means nothing, and Michigan was ahead when most hiring partners were in school. And this is all assuming USNWR matters, which it doesn't.

By your estimations, you're talking a $126,000 difference in cost of attendance before any interest accrues for schools with very little, if any, difference in placement power into the job you are looking for. Michigan, and it's not even close.

Kirk90
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Thu May 21, 2015 10:58 am

Kirk90 wrote:
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT


-Michigan vs. NYU
-Michigan COA = 42k/yr, NYU COA = 84k/yr (still awaiting scholarship info from NYU)
-Financing with loans/scholarships, no family assistance
-NYC
-Not dead set on anything, though most likely not PI
-LSAT/GPA is within the 25th-75th percentile for both schools - edit: LSAT=169, GPA=3.8

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 21, 2015 11:00 am

Kirk90 wrote:
Kirk90 wrote:
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT


-Michigan vs. NYU
-Michigan COA = 42k/yr, NYU COA = 84k/yr (still awaiting scholarship info from NYU)
-Financing with loans/scholarships, no family assistance
-NYC
-Not dead set on anything, though most likely not PI
-LSAT/GPA is within the 25th-75th percentile for both schools - edit: LSAT=169, GPA=3.8


Wow, what other offers do you have?

Kirk90
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:41 am

Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:27 am

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:
Kirk90 wrote:
Kirk90 wrote:
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide as much of the following information in your original post as possible:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships. Here is a helpful calculator.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT


-Michigan vs. NYU
-Michigan COA = 42k/yr, NYU COA = 84k/yr (still awaiting scholarship info from NYU)
-Financing with loans/scholarships, no family assistance
-NYC
-Not dead set on anything, though most likely not PI
-LSAT/GPA is within the 25th-75th percentile for both schools - edit: LSAT=169, GPA=3.8


Wow, what other offers do you have?


Since all seat deposit deadlines have passed, I figured other offers (besides Michigan since I submitted a seat deposit) were negligible in terms of negotiating. What are your thoughts?

In any case, within the T14, I have received the following offers:
Duke: $18k/yr
GULC: $25/yr

Within the T25:
Emory: $35k/yr
USC: Full tuition
GW: $40k/yr

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 21, 2015 11:27 am

NU, UVA?

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RareExports
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby RareExports » Thu May 21, 2015 11:28 am

How late did you apply, OP?

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ILoveYou
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby ILoveYou » Thu May 21, 2015 11:28 am

Those offers seem pretty low for your stats. Did you apply late?

Kirk90
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:32 am

Wait listed from NU, didn't apply to UVA.

All of my applications were in by mid-November.

krads153
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby krads153 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:35 am

~130k debt is not bad

~260k debt is crazy/insane, even for Yale

Kirk90
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:40 am

krads153 wrote:~130k debt is not bad

~260k debt is crazy/insane, even for Yale


Agreed. When do you think "not bad" transitions into "crazy/insane"? It's a strange thing to conceptualize since at the end of the day, 6-figures of debt seems insane no matter what haha

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby TasmanianToucan » Thu May 21, 2015 11:48 am

I think of all of the T14s, NYU might be the craziest at sticker because of the absurd COL. If you're dead set on NYU take a year to retake and reapply to ALL of the T14 for leverage purposes. If not, Michigan may or may not be a defensible option for you depending on your appetite for risk.

krads153
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby krads153 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:55 am

Kirk90 wrote:
krads153 wrote:~130k debt is not bad

~260k debt is crazy/insane, even for Yale


Agreed. When do you think "not bad" transitions into "crazy/insane"? It's a strange thing to conceptualize since at the end of the day, 6-figures of debt seems insane no matter what haha


I managed to pay off 130k of debt in like 2 years of biglaw. (I took out more than that btw). I did better than most though, since I commuted, lived super cheap etc.

260k, including the compounded interest, (so in reality you're going to be paying wayyy more than that) would probably take minimum 6-7 years biglaw for most people to pay off. I know people who started out with 230k in loans and are now 6th years who still have 150k in loans..... a lot of people can't manage their money well enough or live cheaply enough to pay off loans that quickly in biglaw. Your interest alone on 200k loans (due in part to compounding) is going to be minimum 2-3k a month.....not exactly sure of the amount, but it's something crazy insane.

Honestly, if I could go back in time I'd probably retake the LSAT to keep my loans under 100k, and if not that, max 150k total (after interest is included).

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 21, 2015 12:00 pm

TasmanianToucan wrote:I think of all of the T14s, NYU might be the craziest at sticker because of the absurd COL. If you're dead set on NYU take a year to retake and reapply to ALL of the T14 for leverage purposes. If not, Michigan may or may not be a defensible option for you depending on your appetite for risk.


This.

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ILoveYou
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby ILoveYou » Thu May 21, 2015 12:03 pm

Kirk90 wrote:
krads153 wrote:~130k debt is not bad

~260k debt is crazy/insane, even for Yale


Agreed. When do you think "not bad" transitions into "crazy/insane"? It's a strange thing to conceptualize since at the end of the day, 6-figures of debt seems insane no matter what haha


I think this is a really personal calculation, but for me the crazy line was around $150k. I decided I would go if I could walk away with less than $150k in debt, and not if I couldn't.

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby TasmanianToucan » Thu May 21, 2015 12:14 pm

ILoveYou wrote:
Kirk90 wrote:
krads153 wrote:~130k debt is not bad

~260k debt is crazy/insane, even for Yale


Agreed. When do you think "not bad" transitions into "crazy/insane"? It's a strange thing to conceptualize since at the end of the day, 6-figures of debt seems insane no matter what haha


I think this is a really personal calculation, but for me the crazy line was around $150k. I decided I would go if I could walk away with less than $150k in debt, and not if I couldn't.

It's a lot like investing. Some people put their life savings into very risky small-cap foreign equities, and others won't do anything more dangerous than a money market account.

Similarly, some people look at taking on the debt of law school at sticker and bank on getting a biglaw job. For them, that's acceptable risk. For me, it's crazy. Others won't even go to law school for free because they aren't convinced there's a good enough chance of getting a meaningful job that the opportunity cost is worth it. I think that's just as crazy. I suppose the not crazy is somewhere in between, but I can't really say for sure where that is.

krads153
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby krads153 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:17 pm

Taking out sticker for law school is crazy because they will likely get pushed out of biglaw before they can pay off their loans. I guess if you're okay having loans in your second/third jobs (post-biglaw) then that's fine, but those jobs will likely pay a lot less than biglaw. At that point you will likely start thinking about having a family too, so there's an extra cost of having kids, etc. I don't see how any of it is manageable with a lot of loans left.

Kirk90
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby Kirk90 » Fri May 22, 2015 11:02 am

Update: NYU awarded a total of $25k over 3 years, bringing total COAs to:
NYU COA = $227k
Michigan COA = $126k

I definitely want to negotiate with NYU - can anyone recommend any strategies? (Bonus if you've had luck negotiating with NYU, but all advice is valuable.) Should I present them with my Michigan scholarship and ask for a match? Or reason with them in terms of COA? I've negotiated other scholarships, but not after the seat deposit deadlines, so I'm a little unsure if I even have leverage at this point.

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ILoveYou
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Re: Michigan ($$) vs. NYU (sticker)

Postby ILoveYou » Fri May 22, 2015 11:08 am

You can definitely still negotiate with most schools after deposit deadlines (not sure about NYU specifically--sorry!)

I kinda doubt NYU would match your Michigan offer, but I could see it being worth a bump. I think if you can get that price tag at NYU under $200k it becomes a much more attractive option. Then again, if you can use an increased NYU offer to get Michigan to bump you up and bring the COA below $100k, I would still say take that.




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