Penn v.Villanova

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TasmanianToucan
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:16 am

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby TasmanianToucan » Fri May 15, 2015 9:18 am

scottidsntknow wrote:
TasmanianToucan wrote:I would not go to Nova, for free or otherwise. Even if you pull off top 5% and get the job you want, there are probably limits to how high you can rise with a Nova degree. It's far harder to measure than first job, which is why it's not talked about as much, but it's true. Article III judges do not come out of Nova. Not many law firm partners either. And I bet your senator buddy doesn't have senator friends who went there either. (Although I'm not sure who that buddy is, because all of the US senators who went to Penn seem to be, well, dead.)

My point is that while you may be able to get the same outcome for your first job (although the odds are against it), you probably won't be able to get the same outcome at the other end of your career so long as you stay in law. You can get rid of debt, but that degree is for life.

I understand about the fear of that much debt, though. Which is why the middle path is sitting out a year and retaking.

What is this shit 0L advice? I'm sorry, but if someone gets a firm job out of Nova, they're not less likely to make partner than a Penn grad at the same firm.

Yeah, I'm going to have to retract what I said after doing a bunch of reading. Looks like while there are certainly more partners from elite schools, that probably is mostly about getting that associates job in the first place, and that once you're in the door you have as good a shot as anyone.

I need to remind myself not to take anecdotal evidence from the attorneys I work with so seriously.

akarenina
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby akarenina » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:28 pm

mikedw426 wrote:Anyway, i think Penn with full tuition this fall is all but off the table for me. I'm still deciding between retaking with goal of scholarship to Penn or simply sticking with Nova though. I should mention that I spoke to a U.S. Senator (who will remain anonymous for the purpose of this discussion) who went to Penn Law, and to make a long story short he suggested I go to Nova this fall, graduate top 5/10% of the class and become heavily involved in law review. Personally, that opinion carries a lot of weight to me. Any other thoughts on that scenario (Nova this fall, top 5% and law review)? Also wondering what your thoughts would be on earning a JD/MBA, can that make me more competitive coming out of Nova?


Hi,

Just graduated from Villanova, and it sounds like a lot of people on this thread have no idea what they are talking about regarding Nova and its job placement. Listen to the Senator, he or she is on the money. If you are that smart, and work your ass off, you can get on law review and you will have no problem getting a big law job through OCIs. Don't pay full price to go to any law school. It's simply not worth it.

I'm pretty positive everyone in my class who was on law review got a big law job, and if they didn't they got a clerkship. I don't know anyone who was on law review who is unemployed. The main firms people work at are Pepper Hamilton, Blank Rome, some Skadden (Wilmington), some Dechert, etc. Villanova has huge placement success with big law in Philly, so I REALLY would not dismiss it. The only reason I'd recommend against picking Villanova is if you wanted to go into public interest. That's not the case here, so I think you'd be making a mistake to wait and holdout for Penn. But hey, feel free to ignore me.

Good luck with your decision.

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UnderTheLaw
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:51 pm

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby UnderTheLaw » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:44 pm

Follow the $$$ and study hard

consider a retake

NorCalLaw
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby NorCalLaw » Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:25 pm

Regardless of everything else, all the people saying "just work hard and make top X%" are giving the worst advice possible. Grading in law school is not like undergrad, and you can't predict accurately, much less guarantee, where you end up. There are many people at these mid-low ranked schools working their ass off for the mere opportunity to have a bite at some interviews. The environment is competitive. Working hard isn't enough, being smart isn't enough, and knowing the law isn't enough.

Odds are you will not get the opportunity to transfer. Realistically, you won't have anything more than a long shot at biglaw either if you go to Villanova. If you're aiming for competitive PI or similar, the odds will be equally long.

If you can't achieve your desired outcome at median, you probably will not achieve it at all.

I'm pretty positive everyone in my class who was on law review got a big law job, and if they didn't they got a clerkship. I don't know anyone who was on law review who is unemployed. The main firms people work at are Pepper Hamilton, Blank Rome, some Skadden (Wilmington), some Dechert, etc. Villanova has huge placement success with big law in Philly, so I REALLY would not dismiss it. The only reason I'd recommend against picking Villanova is if you wanted to go into public interest. That's not the case here, so I think you'd be making a mistake to wait and holdout for Penn. But hey, feel free to ignore me.


Getting on law review is like ending up in the top 10%: you can't guarantee or predict it. The better students will have a better shot, but that is all. Law review in no way guarantees career success, either. The fact is that Villanova places 15% of its students into biglaw and less than 1% into federal clerkships.

akarenina
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby akarenina » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:07 pm

NorCalLaw wrote:Regardless of everything else, all the people saying "just work hard and make top X%" are giving the worst advice possible. Grading in law school is not like undergrad, and you can't predict accurately, much less guarantee, where you end up. There are many people at these mid-low ranked schools working their ass off for the mere opportunity to have a bite at some interviews. The environment is competitive. Working hard isn't enough, being smart isn't enough, and knowing the law isn't enough.

Odds are you will not get the opportunity to transfer. Realistically, you won't have anything more than a long shot at biglaw either if you go to Villanova. If you're aiming for competitive PI or similar, the odds will be equally long.

If you can't achieve your desired outcome at median, you probably will not achieve it at all.

I'm pretty positive everyone in my class who was on law review got a big law job, and if they didn't they got a clerkship. I don't know anyone who was on law review who is unemployed. The main firms people work at are Pepper Hamilton, Blank Rome, some Skadden (Wilmington), some Dechert, etc. Villanova has huge placement success with big law in Philly, so I REALLY would not dismiss it. The only reason I'd recommend against picking Villanova is if you wanted to go into public interest. That's not the case here, so I think you'd be making a mistake to wait and holdout for Penn. But hey, feel free to ignore me.


Getting on law review is like ending up in the top 10%: you can't guarantee or predict it. The better students will have a better shot, but that is all. Law review in no way guarantees career success, either. The fact is that Villanova places 15% of its students into biglaw and less than 1% into federal clerkships.


Not a long shot at all. Class size is down at Nova, last incoming class was maybe 160, and they need to take more than 10% on law review in order to staff the board positions the way it has been when for example my class size was 220. Thus, out of 160 people, probably 30-35 people will end up on law review. Again, that's 30 people out of 160. That's really not a long shot. Class size is an important consideration.

Work hard, study hard, take advantage of academic success resources, go to professors during office hours, actually go to your TA sessions and do practice exams, use supplements... do what you have to do, and you'd have no issue unless you really are not that smart and law school is not meant for you. I was a TA for the 1L classes throughout my 2L and 3L year, and the students who do well are consistently the ones who actually put the work in and take advantage of the resources offered to them. Most people don't because they think they can figure it out themselves. Success in law school is really not as arbitrary as people go on about.

Also, a solid handful of people in my year transferred to T1 schools, so that's also not impossible either. Not everyone wants federal clerkships either. If you are set on a federal clerkship, yeah, 100% you're better off at Penn. That's not everyone though. While it's extremely fascinating to listen to people who didn't go to Villanova talk about Villanova's employment rates, unless you went to Villanova you're just basing your advice on incorrect assumptions. Philly is a tiny legal market, Villanova has a huge presence, and that's a fact.

NorCalLaw
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:33 pm

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby NorCalLaw » Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:36 pm

akarenina wrote:
NorCalLaw wrote:Regardless of everything else, all the people saying "just work hard and make top X%" are giving the worst advice possible. Grading in law school is not like undergrad, and you can't predict accurately, much less guarantee, where you end up. There are many people at these mid-low ranked schools working their ass off for the mere opportunity to have a bite at some interviews. The environment is competitive. Working hard isn't enough, being smart isn't enough, and knowing the law isn't enough.

Odds are you will not get the opportunity to transfer. Realistically, you won't have anything more than a long shot at biglaw either if you go to Villanova. If you're aiming for competitive PI or similar, the odds will be equally long.

If you can't achieve your desired outcome at median, you probably will not achieve it at all.

I'm pretty positive everyone in my class who was on law review got a big law job, and if they didn't they got a clerkship. I don't know anyone who was on law review who is unemployed. The main firms people work at are Pepper Hamilton, Blank Rome, some Skadden (Wilmington), some Dechert, etc. Villanova has huge placement success with big law in Philly, so I REALLY would not dismiss it. The only reason I'd recommend against picking Villanova is if you wanted to go into public interest. That's not the case here, so I think you'd be making a mistake to wait and holdout for Penn. But hey, feel free to ignore me.


Getting on law review is like ending up in the top 10%: you can't guarantee or predict it. The better students will have a better shot, but that is all. Law review in no way guarantees career success, either. The fact is that Villanova places 15% of its students into biglaw and less than 1% into federal clerkships.


Not a long shot at all. Class size is down at Nova, last incoming class was maybe 160, and they need to take more than 10% on law review in order to staff the board positions the way it has been when for example my class size was 220. Thus, out of 160 people, probably 30-35 people will end up on law review. Again, that's 30 people out of 160. That's really not a long shot. Class size is an important consideration.

Work hard, study hard, take advantage of academic success resources, go to professors during office hours, actually go to your TA sessions and do practice exams, use supplements... do what you have to do, and you'd have no issue unless you really are not that smart and law school is not meant for you. I was a TA for the 1L classes throughout my 2L and 3L year, and the students who do well are consistently the ones who actually put the work in and take advantage of the resources offered to them. Most people don't because they think they can figure it out themselves. Success in law school is really not as arbitrary as people go on about.

Also, a solid handful of people in my year transferred to T1 schools, so that's also not impossible either. Not everyone wants federal clerkships either. If you are set on a federal clerkship, yeah, 100% you're better off at Penn. That's not everyone though. While it's extremely fascinating to listen to people who didn't go to Villanova talk about Villanova's employment rates, unless you went to Villanova you're just basing your advice on incorrect assumptions. Philly is a tiny legal market, Villanova has a huge presence, and that's a fact.


You're wearing blinders. If you honestly believe that 80% of the class was just lazy and the 20% that made it into journal and/or got their dream job were the ones who just tried harder, then you aren't fit to hand out advice to 0Ls. Most students who attend Villanova struggle mightily to get quality legal employment. Just because your outcome was positive doesn't mean that anyone should expect the same.

Statistics >>> anecdotes >>> "work hard and you'll do well" platitude

akarenina
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:50 am

Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby akarenina » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:20 am

NorCalLaw wrote:
akarenina wrote:
NorCalLaw wrote:Regardless of everything else, all the people saying "just work hard and make top X%" are giving the worst advice possible. Grading in law school is not like undergrad, and you can't predict accurately, much less guarantee, where you end up. There are many people at these mid-low ranked schools working their ass off for the mere opportunity to have a bite at some interviews. The environment is competitive. Working hard isn't enough, being smart isn't enough, and knowing the law isn't enough.

Odds are you will not get the opportunity to transfer. Realistically, you won't have anything more than a long shot at biglaw either if you go to Villanova. If you're aiming for competitive PI or similar, the odds will be equally long.

If you can't achieve your desired outcome at median, you probably will not achieve it at all.

I'm pretty positive everyone in my class who was on law review got a big law job, and if they didn't they got a clerkship. I don't know anyone who was on law review who is unemployed. The main firms people work at are Pepper Hamilton, Blank Rome, some Skadden (Wilmington), some Dechert, etc. Villanova has huge placement success with big law in Philly, so I REALLY would not dismiss it. The only reason I'd recommend against picking Villanova is if you wanted to go into public interest. That's not the case here, so I think you'd be making a mistake to wait and holdout for Penn. But hey, feel free to ignore me.


Getting on law review is like ending up in the top 10%: you can't guarantee or predict it. The better students will have a better shot, but that is all. Law review in no way guarantees career success, either. The fact is that Villanova places 15% of its students into biglaw and less than 1% into federal clerkships.


Not a long shot at all. Class size is down at Nova, last incoming class was maybe 160, and they need to take more than 10% on law review in order to staff the board positions the way it has been when for example my class size was 220. Thus, out of 160 people, probably 30-35 people will end up on law review. Again, that's 30 people out of 160. That's really not a long shot. Class size is an important consideration.

Work hard, study hard, take advantage of academic success resources, go to professors during office hours, actually go to your TA sessions and do practice exams, use supplements... do what you have to do, and you'd have no issue unless you really are not that smart and law school is not meant for you. I was a TA for the 1L classes throughout my 2L and 3L year, and the students who do well are consistently the ones who actually put the work in and take advantage of the resources offered to them. Most people don't because they think they can figure it out themselves. Success in law school is really not as arbitrary as people go on about.

Also, a solid handful of people in my year transferred to T1 schools, so that's also not impossible either. Not everyone wants federal clerkships either. If you are set on a federal clerkship, yeah, 100% you're better off at Penn. That's not everyone though. While it's extremely fascinating to listen to people who didn't go to Villanova talk about Villanova's employment rates, unless you went to Villanova you're just basing your advice on incorrect assumptions. Philly is a tiny legal market, Villanova has a huge presence, and that's a fact.


You're wearing blinders. If you honestly believe that 80% of the class was just lazy and the 20% that made it into journal and/or got their dream job were the ones who just tried harder, then you aren't fit to hand out advice to 0Ls. Most students who attend Villanova struggle mightily to get quality legal employment. Just because your outcome was positive doesn't mean that anyone should expect the same.

Statistics >>> anecdotes >>> "work hard and you'll do well" platitude


*headdesk* Good luck with your decision OP. Feel free to PM me if you have actual questions about anything at Nova.




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