Penn v.Villanova

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itascot1992
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby itascot1992 » Tue May 12, 2015 10:58 pm

jchiles wrote:
Clearly wrote:Except he doesn't want a well compensated position. He was very explicit in his goals, and the Penn / Villanova distinction isn't worth the money for that field.


I thought OP wanted to possibly work big law and make over 100k, but maybe i misread.


you were right, clearly clearly can't read ;)

itascot1992
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby itascot1992 » Tue May 12, 2015 10:58 pm

jchiles wrote:
Clearly wrote:Except he doesn't want a well compensated position. He was very explicit in his goals, and the Penn / Villanova distinction isn't worth the money for that field.


I thought OP wanted to possibly work big law and make over 100k, but maybe i misread.


you were right, clearly clearly can't read ;)

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Kinky John
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby Kinky John » Tue May 12, 2015 11:04 pm

mikedw426 wrote: 15,000/yr. to Fordham (not big on the Bronx, although i do not mind NYC as a whole)


Retake, and fordham's law school isn't in the bronx

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Clearly
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby Clearly » Wed May 13, 2015 12:05 am

itascot1992 wrote:
jchiles wrote:
Clearly wrote:Except he doesn't want a well compensated position. He was very explicit in his goals, and the Penn / Villanova distinction isn't worth the money for that field.


I thought OP wanted to possibly work big law and make over 100k, but maybe i misread.


you were right, clearly clearly can't read ;)


I got threads confused, it's the other guy that's all about personal injury law, deciding between Penn and some other terrible school. Last time I help you with the lsat!

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby JohannDeMann » Wed May 13, 2015 1:55 am

Id go penn. It's a shitload of debt but if you look at it as a lifetime investment, it's a way better choice than nova.

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DaRascal
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby DaRascal » Wed May 13, 2015 3:57 am

quiver wrote:
DaRascal wrote:Villanova. I'll put it this way- If someone gave me $1,000 to bet on you, I'd put it on your being Top 25% at Villanova based on your excellent GPA and solid LSAT score over your being able to go from a 161 to 169, because I think if you work as hard as possible at Nova, it'll be hard for your peers to outperform you whereas you might work extremely hard on the LSAT and end up with only a 166, short of what you need to get huge scholarship money to make up for the year you'll be taking off.
Wait what?


I mean, I think those who want him to go to Penn right now are of the opinion that he outperformed his numbers and he either might not get in again or he'll get in with just about the same offer he has right now, especially if he only increases his LSAT by a couple of points. Just because you can sneak into an elite school doesn't mean it's your best option.

It's known that the take home for biglaw is ~90k/year and he'll have 250k in loans not even considering the interest. Out of the 90k he makes, a good portion of that will have to go to living expenses, and who knows what kind of lifestyle he'll live outside of work. Either his girlfriend has to pitch in to help him pay off the loans, or else he has to drop ~70k per year on the loans and hope he can stick around in biglaw for 5 years to break even. Will he be a mentally stable and functioning lawyer at that point or will he be a burned out, broken man who wishes he'd never joined the profession? By all accounts on here biglaw is terrible and he might want to leave five months in, but won't be able to because he has to stay five years. The long-term benefits of this degree aren't worth the hell he's going to go through for the next decade.

If he goes to Villanova, he might be shutout of a lot of jobs he would have gotten with a much lower class rank at Penn, but without the debt he can now take even a $40k/year job and he'll have a happier life with his family than if he goes to Penn and gets hired in biglaw and then can't leave it and can't save up any of the money he makes because he has to dump it all on his loans knowing he doesn't have long-term job security.


That's why I would absolutely say "screw the prestige" and go to Villanova unless I knew for sure that under timed conditions I'm consistently in the low 170's on my practice tests so that a reasonable test day drop puts me in the high 160's at worst because the only way he can go to Penn is if it costs him less than $100k, so that he buys himself two years to last in biglaw to make it all happen. He'll have no pressure to excel at Villanova without the loans and he'll be competing for grades against a weaker field of students. :|

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Poldy
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby Poldy » Wed May 13, 2015 8:14 am

How are you coming up with a take home of $90,000? That is a roughly 44% effective tax rate.

JasonSehorn
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby JasonSehorn » Wed May 13, 2015 8:33 am

In NYC it's around 96k take home.

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby TasmanianToucan » Wed May 13, 2015 8:57 am

Whatever the take home actually is, I'm not sure it's our place to evaluate the merit of his goals any more than to evaluate whether he should get married. The man wants biglaw, and wants advice on how best to get there.

Given how unpredictable law school performance is, I think it's probably best to assume OP will end up at median wherever he goes. Plenty of smart people end up being not great at law school, irrespective of where they attend. So, from the choices presented, go to Penn. 70% of the class ends up in biglaw, and those are great odds.

Again, if OP left points on the table he should sit out and retake. But its a gamble either way. If he doesn't do significantly better there's no guarantee that he'll outperform his LSAT score so amazingly again.

Edit: Spelling

mikedw426
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby mikedw426 » Wed May 13, 2015 11:08 am

Thank you so much for all of your input. It seems to me that the consensus is: Penn is still my better option even considering the debt but that I should retake the LSAT and reapply to Penn for at least some merit scholarship. Honestly, I would love to retake and have a potential shot at money to such a great school but I have a few obstacles with that option. First, I'll probably take a lot of flack (especially from family) for turning down a full scholarship, even though at Nova they are more common than most people realize. Second, like I said, I never thought I was going to get any of the offers like the ones I received and so I never gave any real thought to taking a year off and retaking the LSAT until now. That being said, it does sound like that's my best option to have a fruitful career I'm just very hesitant to turn down the money I've been offered and to take another year to go through this process all over again. I would really like to stay in Philly and if I decide not to reapply next year, should I be paying more attention to my Temple offer?

mikedw426
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby mikedw426 » Wed May 13, 2015 11:10 am

Sorry one more question while I'm thinking of it. Would it be wise to take the money and consider transferring to Penn after 1L if I'm not happy with Nova? Thanks.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Wed May 13, 2015 11:14 am

mikedw426 wrote:Thank you so much for all of your input. It seems to me that the consensus is: Penn is still my better option even considering the debt but that I should retake the LSAT and reapply to Penn for at least some merit scholarship. Honestly, I would love to retake and have a potential shot at money to such a great school but I have a few obstacles with that option. First, I'll probably take a lot of flack (especially from family) for turning down a full scholarship, even though at Nova they are more common than most people realize. Second, like I said, I never thought I was going to get any of the offers like the ones I received and so I never gave any real thought to taking a year off and retaking the LSAT until now. That being said, it does sound like that's my best option to have a fruitful career I'm just very hesitant to turn down the money I've been offered and to take another year to go through this process all over again. I would really like to stay in Philly and if I decide not to reapply next year, should I be paying more attention to my Temple offer?


Transferring is very difficult and being able to do so is something that you can not predict. You would need to be top 5% in your class and there's no way you can predict being there. Law school grades are too unpredictable. The concerns about the way your family will look upon your decision are understandable, but ultimately, irrelevant. You'll be the one saddled with either debt at Penn or (in all likelihood) unemployment/underemployment at Temple/Nova, rather than them. Moving forward you should only consider what is best for you in the long-term. You've already stated that you understand that retaking and reapplying is what is best for you and your long-term career outlook, so I think your decision should reflect that. There are a ton of helpful lsat threads on this site you should check out. Good luck, OP!

mikedw426
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby mikedw426 » Wed May 13, 2015 11:20 am

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:
mikedw426 wrote:Thank you so much for all of your input. It seems to me that the consensus is: Penn is still my better option even considering the debt but that I should retake the LSAT and reapply to Penn for at least some merit scholarship. Honestly, I would love to retake and have a potential shot at money to such a great school but I have a few obstacles with that option. First, I'll probably take a lot of flack (especially from family) for turning down a full scholarship, even though at Nova they are more common than most people realize. Second, like I said, I never thought I was going to get any of the offers like the ones I received and so I never gave any real thought to taking a year off and retaking the LSAT until now. That being said, it does sound like that's my best option to have a fruitful career I'm just very hesitant to turn down the money I've been offered and to take another year to go through this process all over again. I would really like to stay in Philly and if I decide not to reapply next year, should I be paying more attention to my Temple offer?


Transferring is very difficult and being able to do so is something that you can not predict. You would need to be top 5% in your class and there's no way you can predict being there. Law school grades are too unpredictable. The concerns about the way your family will look upon your decision are understandable, but ultimately, irrelevant. You'll be the one saddled with either debt at Penn or (in all likelihood) unemployment/underemployment at Temple/Nova, rather than them. Moving forward you should only consider what is best for you in the long-term. You've already stated that you understand that retaking and reapplying is what is best for you and your long-term career outlook, so I think your decision should reflect that. There are a ton of helpful lsat threads on this site you should check out. Good luck, OP!


Thanks a lot for all your input it really helped. I'm very seriously considering retaking the LSAT. Thanks again!

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby TasmanianToucan » Wed May 13, 2015 11:32 am

You're ok, OP. Good luck to you!

mikedw426
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby mikedw426 » Wed May 13, 2015 12:17 pm

TasmanianToucan wrote:You're ok, OP. Good luck to you!


Thank you i appreciate your time and advice!

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LegaleZy
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby LegaleZy » Wed May 13, 2015 6:18 pm

OP, if Pennsylvania is where you see yourself long term I don't think Nova is a bad option given it's a strong regional. Any school at sticker is frighning because there are so many unknowns. I would suggest, as others have, perhaps looking at a retake so Penn is more financially feasible.

Splitter101
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby Splitter101 » Wed May 13, 2015 6:59 pm

OP, I would recommend filling out the need access form and applying for need based aid through Penn. I know most people on this site say need based aid is a flame except for HYS, but I received some need based aid from Penn.

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quiver
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby quiver » Wed May 13, 2015 7:06 pm

mikedw426 wrote:
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:
mikedw426 wrote:Thank you so much for all of your input. It seems to me that the consensus is: Penn is still my better option even considering the debt but that I should retake the LSAT and reapply to Penn for at least some merit scholarship. Honestly, I would love to retake and have a potential shot at money to such a great school but I have a few obstacles with that option. First, I'll probably take a lot of flack (especially from family) for turning down a full scholarship, even though at Nova they are more common than most people realize. Second, like I said, I never thought I was going to get any of the offers like the ones I received and so I never gave any real thought to taking a year off and retaking the LSAT until now. That being said, it does sound like that's my best option to have a fruitful career I'm just very hesitant to turn down the money I've been offered and to take another year to go through this process all over again. I would really like to stay in Philly and if I decide not to reapply next year, should I be paying more attention to my Temple offer?


Transferring is very difficult and being able to do so is something that you can not predict. You would need to be top 5% in your class and there's no way you can predict being there. Law school grades are too unpredictable. The concerns about the way your family will look upon your decision are understandable, but ultimately, irrelevant. You'll be the one saddled with either debt at Penn or (in all likelihood) unemployment/underemployment at Temple/Nova, rather than them. Moving forward you should only consider what is best for you in the long-term. You've already stated that you understand that retaking and reapplying is what is best for you and your long-term career outlook, so I think your decision should reflect that. There are a ton of helpful lsat threads on this site you should check out. Good luck, OP!


Thanks a lot for all your input it really helped. I'm very seriously considering retaking the LSAT. Thanks again!
Completely agree with this advice. Good luck, OP! I know it seems like an uphill battle now, but you will be thanking yourself immensely in a few years when you're attending Penn with a large scholly.

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usn26
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby usn26 » Thu May 14, 2015 10:34 am

Is Penn's YP hawkishness anything to be concerned about for OP? Retake for $$ seems credited, retake for $$ at Penn seems risky to me.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 14, 2015 10:37 am

usn26 wrote:Is Penn's YP hawkishness anything to be concerned about for OP? Retake for $$ seems credited, retake for $$ at Penn seems risky to me.


Can always be overcome with visits/Why Xs/general shows of dedication and affection

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby TasmanianToucan » Thu May 14, 2015 11:10 am

OhBoyOhBortles wrote:
usn26 wrote:Is Penn's YP hawkishness anything to be concerned about for OP? Retake for $$ seems credited, retake for $$ at Penn seems risky to me.


Can always be overcome with visits/Why Xs/general shows of dedication and affection*

*Almost always

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Thu May 14, 2015 11:12 am

TasmanianToucan wrote:
OhBoyOhBortles wrote:
usn26 wrote:Is Penn's YP hawkishness anything to be concerned about for OP? Retake for $$ seems credited, retake for $$ at Penn seems risky to me.


Can always be overcome with visits/Why Xs/general shows of dedication and affection*

*Almost always


Good catch. Almost always.

NYCFAN1
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby NYCFAN1 » Thu May 14, 2015 12:04 pm

What does your fiance do?

Penn might be defensible if she's a doctor with low/no debt, high paid engineer, etc.. Otherwise, Penn at sticker is a terrible idea.

Retaking is most certainly the most prudent option.

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby TasmanianToucan » Thu May 14, 2015 1:41 pm

This one is actually giving me more pause than most, partly because OP outperformed his numbers so dramatically. Retaking/reapplying would really only be best here if there are a lot of points left on the table. Either way is a risk. Taking the offer now is a lot of debt, but if he retakes and gets the same result/marginal increase he could be contemplating the same options except with GULC instead of Penn.

I've gotta ask again: OP, did you prepare thoroughly for the LSAT? Did you hit/outperform your best practice tests?

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usn26
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Re: Penn v.Villanova

Postby usn26 » Thu May 14, 2015 3:28 pm

TasmanianToucan wrote:This one is actually giving me more pause than most, partly because OP outperformed his numbers so dramatically. Retaking/reapplying would really only be best here if there are a lot of points left on the table. Either way is a risk. Taking the offer now is a lot of debt, but if he retakes and gets the same result/marginal increase he could be contemplating the same options except with GULC instead of Penn.

I've gotta ask again: OP, did you prepare thoroughly for the LSAT? Did you hit/outperform your best practice tests?


+1

I'm kind of thinking this way as well.




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