UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

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Parkcardy
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UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Parkcardy » Sat May 09, 2015 10:07 pm

Hi everyone!

I was wondering if anyone can give me their opinion. I'm stuck between the three schools listed.

UC Hastings - 20k/year
Brooklyn Law School - 37k for first year,27k for the last two years
Penn State - full tuition covered

I'm from Southern California and I see myself practicing in so cal. But right after graduation, I plan on pursuing the big firm direction.

Can anyone share your opinion regarding this?
What do you think is the best choice and why?
I'm worried about the debt I'll be accruing if I go to UC Hastings.

Thanks.

Traynor Brah
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Traynor Brah » Sat May 09, 2015 10:14 pm

any argument you could make to try to justify any one of these options would be wholly untenable. Do not do this to yourself. Even with modest goals in each respective region, each would be a patently terrible investment. I can't come up with words that are strong enough to express how bad these options are for your goals. If you are not going to retake for UCLA or USC, don't go to law school.

BigZuck
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby BigZuck » Sat May 09, 2015 11:47 pm

USC/UCLA are the absolute minimum you can attend with those goals.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby ManoftheHour » Sun May 10, 2015 12:00 am

Parkcardy wrote:I plan on pursuing the big firm direction.

I would not attend any of those schools for free (Except PSU. Penn State is decent for free if you want to work in PA, and are okay with a small gig).


http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/brooklyn/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/pennstate/2014/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/hastings/2014/

Each school gives you about 10% chance of landing one of those big firm jobs.

For SoCal big law, you need at least UCLA/USC with $$$.

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 12:45 am

BLS graduating 3L here. I don't pretend to know anything about the LA job market, but for biglaw in general, this is not a bad place to be. Financial aid is historically very generous and you'll probably get more money if you appeal. Biglaw spots are certainly limited, but the level of competition for good grades is lower than you'd find at an elite school.

The school is also doing a lot to raise its profile and is attracting attention from firms that used to ignore us; I know at least one person in my class who's being recruited by a top 25 firm right now having never summered anywhere. There are many paths to biglaw and I recommend taking a gamble on the one that is the best compromise of location and minimal debt.

All that said, living is expensive. I have a full tuition scholarship and still about 100k in federal loans.
Last edited by Vader Ginsburg on Sun May 10, 2015 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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pancakes3
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby pancakes3 » Sun May 10, 2015 1:03 am

Vader Ginsburg wrote:BLS graduating 3L here. I don't pretend to know anything about the LA job market, but for biglaw in general, this is not a bad place to be. Financial aid is historically very generous and you'll probably get more money if you appeal. Biglaw spots are certainly limited, but the level of competition for good grades is lower than you'd find at an elite school.

The school is also doing a lot to raise its profile and is attracting attention from firms that used to ignore us; I know at least one person who's being recruited by a top 25 firm right now having never summered anywhere. There are many paths to biglaw and I recommend taking a gamble on the one that is the best compromise of location and minimal debt.

All that said, living is expensive. I have a full tuition scholarship and still about 100k in federal loans.


Bro... wtf.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun May 10, 2015 1:56 am

Vader Ginsburg wrote:BLS graduating 3L here. I don't pretend to know anything about the LA job market, but for biglaw in general, this is not a bad place to be. Financial aid is historically very generous and you'll probably get more money if you appeal. Biglaw spots are certainly limited, but the level of competition for good grades is lower than you'd find at an elite school.

The school is also doing a lot to raise its profile and is attracting attention from firms that used to ignore us; I know at least one person who's being recruited by a top 25 firm right now having never summered anywhere. There are many paths to biglaw and I recommend taking a gamble on the one that is the best compromise of location and minimal debt.

All that said, living is expensive. I have a full tuition scholarship and still about 100k in federal loans.


I really really hope this post and OP are flames

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 2:21 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:
Vader Ginsburg wrote:BLS graduating 3L here. I don't pretend to know anything about the LA job market, but for biglaw in general, this is not a bad place to be. Financial aid is historically very generous and you'll probably get more money if you appeal. Biglaw spots are certainly limited, but the level of competition for good grades is lower than you'd find at an elite school.

The school is also doing a lot to raise its profile and is attracting attention from firms that used to ignore us; I know at least one person who's being recruited by a top 25 firm right now having never summered anywhere. There are many paths to biglaw and I recommend taking a gamble on the one that is the best compromise of location and minimal debt.

All that said, living is expensive. I have a full tuition scholarship and still about 100k in federal loans.


I really really hope this post and OP are flames


Is it something I said?

I don't work for the school or anything, if that's what you're getting at. I just don't think there are any categorically right or wrong answers to these questions -- they're personal choices -- and I thought OP might want a student's perspective from one of these schools. I've never commented on TLS before and probably won't again.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Sun May 10, 2015 2:28 am

around 90% of brooklyn law students don't land in biglaw each year per the schools own reported employment statistics..

just take a chance OP

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 2:48 am

Mack.Hambleton wrote:around 90% of brooklyn law students don't land in biglaw each year per the schools own reported employment statistics..

just take a chance OP


Yes, take a chance. It's really hard to go to law school in New York City – if you can get into Columbia or NYU (where a handful do transfer from BLS every year), you're shelling out $250k (and locking yourself into years of after-tax loan payments around $3500/month) because those schools don't need to give generous scholarships to attract good students. If you're a good student in New York who doesn't go to those schools, you're taking a gamble on Fordham, Cardozo, or BLS, because those are the only others here where the number of students getting into biglaw is more than a big fat zero.

If you don't want to be here, that's another thing entirely. But the networking opportunities in this city are unbeatable if you know what you're doing, and for that alone I say think about it.

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banjo
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby banjo » Sun May 10, 2015 4:46 am

As a few others said, retake and go to USC/UCLA or a T14 with $$$.

Traynor Brah
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Traynor Brah » Sun May 10, 2015 5:45 am

Vader Ginsburg wrote:BLS graduating 3L here. I don't pretend to know anything about the LA job market, but for biglaw in general, this is not a bad place to be. Financial aid is historically very generous and you'll probably get more money if you appeal. Biglaw spots are certainly limited, but the level of competition for good grades is lower than you'd find at an elite school.

The school is also doing a lot to raise its profile and is attracting attention from firms that used to ignore us; I know at least one person in my class who's being recruited by a top 25 firm right now having never summered anywhere. There are many paths to biglaw and I recommend taking a gamble on the one that is the best compromise of location and minimal debt.

All that said, living is expensive. I have a full tuition scholarship and still about 100k in federal loans.

Lololololol

Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

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justkeepswimming794
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby justkeepswimming794 » Sun May 10, 2015 5:59 am

banjo wrote:As a few others said, retake and go to USC/UCLA or a T14 with $$$.


I agree. If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE but if you're really keen on socal you should not go to any of those schools.

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed. but i think the chances of big law from any school other than maybe Sc or ucla tho are slim to none

so yeah if you're set on big law reapply after you get your numbers up, otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Traynor Brah » Sun May 10, 2015 10:19 am

justkeepswimming794 wrote:If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed.

otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah wrote:Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

[I mean, obviously not to the same extent, but the lines above... come on, dude. This guy is looking for validation to ruin his life and you're giving it to him.]

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 10:48 am

Traynor Brah wrote:
justkeepswimming794 wrote:If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed.

otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah wrote:Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

[I mean, obviously not to the same extent, but the lines above... come on, dude. This guy is looking for validation to ruin his life and you're giving it to him.]


Hey man, everybody's different outside this board. I don't consider my life a ruin, or my philosophy "literally retarded," simply by the fact that I went to a non-elite school. I'm happy with my choice and I'd make it again, but it's not for everyone.

You're all lawyers or soon will be. Give me an intelligent, substantial reason why I'm wrong and I'll read it with an open mind.

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usn26
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby usn26 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:48 am

So you want to pay significant money to go to schools with a remote (at best) chance at biglaw and almost no chance of portability to where you actually want to practice?

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 10:51 am

usn26 wrote:So you want to pay significant money to go to schools with a remote (at best) chance at biglaw and almost no chance of portability to where you actually want to practice?


I'll DEFINITELY agree on the portability thing. I don't know many people from my school who go directly to work in California. It happens, but it's rare. The better approach from here is to start in New York and get your second job on the west coast.

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chuckbass
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby chuckbass » Sun May 10, 2015 10:55 am

Vader Ginsburg wrote:
Traynor Brah wrote:
justkeepswimming794 wrote:If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed.

otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah wrote:Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

[I mean, obviously not to the same extent, but the lines above... come on, dude. This guy is looking for validation to ruin his life and you're giving it to him.]


Hey man, everybody's different outside this board. I don't consider my life a ruin, or my philosophy "literally retarded," simply by the fact that I went to a non-elite school. I'm happy with my choice and I'd make it again, but it's not for everyone.

You're all lawyers or soon will be. Give me an intelligent, substantial reason why I'm wrong and I'll read it with an open mind.

Are you happy b/c you ended up with biglaw? Because if you didn't, I imagine with $100k in loans you'd be a little upset.

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justkeepswimming794
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby justkeepswimming794 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:58 am

Vader Ginsburg wrote:
Traynor Brah wrote:
justkeepswimming794 wrote:If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed.

otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah wrote:Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

[I mean, obviously not to the same extent, but the lines above... come on, dude. This guy is looking for validation to ruin his life and you're giving it to him.]


Hey man, everybody's different outside this board. I don't consider my life a ruin, or my philosophy "literally retarded," simply by the fact that I went to a non-elite school. I'm happy with my choice and I'd make it again, but it's not for everyone.

You're all lawyers or soon will be. Give me an intelligent, substantial reason why I'm wrong and I'll read it with an open mind.


you are not wrong for your choices, if they were reasonably calculated , or, you ended up where you wanted to working for a local market -- theres nothing wrong with that (Im working in a DAs office this summer and I go to a slightly "better" school--who cares--not the point.) Im not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.
BUT based on the OP, if you want to go to ANY of these schools and do biglaw, you're sort of kidding yourself. and i can only presume the reason people are on here is to get actual feedback. Biglaw is just one avenue, its just OP specifically stated she wanted a big firm job so... real talk.

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 11:02 am

scottidsntknow wrote:
Vader Ginsburg wrote:
Traynor Brah wrote:
justkeepswimming794 wrote:If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed.

otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah wrote:Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

[I mean, obviously not to the same extent, but the lines above... come on, dude. This guy is looking for validation to ruin his life and you're giving it to him.]


Hey man, everybody's different outside this board. I don't consider my life a ruin, or my philosophy "literally retarded," simply by the fact that I went to a non-elite school. I'm happy with my choice and I'd make it again, but it's not for everyone.

You're all lawyers or soon will be. Give me an intelligent, substantial reason why I'm wrong and I'll read it with an open mind.

Are you happy b/c you ended up with biglaw? Because if you didn't, I imagine with $100k in loans you'd be a little upset.


I lied when I said the top 25 firm person is someone I know -- it's actually me. I don't have the job yet, but it's looking really good and I have two solid backups if it falls through (an in-house gig and a mid-size firm). I got the opportunity through three years of very persistent networking; if that's not your thing and you need to coast into biglaw on pedigree, that's cool, but don't come to BLS.

The debt's not great, but a lot of it was my own fault and avoidable. Not summering meant additional PLUS loans I wouldn't have had otherwise. If I'd been more responsible, I'd have about $70-75k instead. Huge lesson learned at an early age.

I'll gladly talk more about my situation on PM.

Vader Ginsburg
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Vader Ginsburg » Sun May 10, 2015 11:11 am

justkeepswimming794 wrote:
Vader Ginsburg wrote:
Traynor Brah wrote:
justkeepswimming794 wrote:If you wanted to do public interest in new york or transfer then BLS MAYBE

there are a few places in san diego you might be able to get in the LA market with that are on the same level as the schools listed.

otherwise go where ever but plan on doing something local

Traynor Brah wrote:Op this guy's advice is literally retarded follow at your own risk

[I mean, obviously not to the same extent, but the lines above... come on, dude. This guy is looking for validation to ruin his life and you're giving it to him.]


Hey man, everybody's different outside this board. I don't consider my life a ruin, or my philosophy "literally retarded," simply by the fact that I went to a non-elite school. I'm happy with my choice and I'd make it again, but it's not for everyone.

You're all lawyers or soon will be. Give me an intelligent, substantial reason why I'm wrong and I'll read it with an open mind.


you are not wrong for your choices, if they were reasonably calculated , or, you ended up where you wanted to working for a local market -- theres nothing wrong with that (Im working in a DAs office this summer and I go to a slightly "better" school--who cares--not the point.) Im not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.
BUT based on the OP, if you want to go to ANY of these schools and do biglaw, you're sort of kidding yourself. and i can only presume the reason people are on here is to get actual feedback. Biglaw is just one avenue, its just OP specifically stated she wanted a big firm job so... real talk.


That's totally reasonable. You have to grind and get lucky to make biglaw here, that's for sure. I'm just suggesting that there's a gamble to make either way. You're either betting you won't burn out of biglaw before you can make a gigantic dent in that $250k, or you're betting you can stand out at a school where (assuming you're a committed, disciplined, focused student) more than three-quarters of your classmates can't touch you, where they're not even in the same league with you. It takes confidence and dedication, but it can be done.

Traynor Brah
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Traynor Brah » Sun May 10, 2015 11:14 am

lol

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun May 10, 2015 11:14 am

Vader Ginsburg wrote:You have to grind and get lucky to make biglaw here, that's for sure. I'm just suggesting that there's a gamble to make either way. You're either betting you won't burn out of biglaw before you can make a gigantic dent in that $250k, or you're betting you can stand out at a school where (assuming you're a committed, disciplined, focused student) more than three-quarters of your classmates can't touch you, where they're not even in the same league with you. It takes confidence and dedication, but it can be done.

You are about to graduate, are apparently light years ahead of more than 3/4 of your classmates intellectually, and still don't have biglaw lined up despite three years of hustle and networking. That seems to push strongly against your earlier comment that "for biglaw in general BLS is not a bad place to be."

Parkcardy
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby Parkcardy » Sun May 10, 2015 11:19 am

Hi guys,

OP here.

Wow, that was sort of intense. It's nice to hear very different views on this. I guess it's my fault for saying I want to pursue big law right after graduation. I just said that as a possibility; I really wouldn't be bummed if I don't work at s big law job. Obviously I know the chances of me getting into of those jobs is slim to none at these schools, but I thought I may try and see what I can achieve.

What I really wanna do is pursue immigration law. I am just afraid of how much debt I will be accruing (depending on the school) and I wanna try to minimize that as much as possible.

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justkeepswimming794
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Re: UC Hastings vs. Penn State vs. Brooklyn Law School

Postby justkeepswimming794 » Sun May 10, 2015 11:28 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Vader Ginsburg wrote:You have to grind and get lucky to make biglaw here, that's for sure. I'm just suggesting that there's a gamble to make either way. You're either betting you won't burn out of biglaw before you can make a gigantic dent in that $250k, or you're betting you can stand out at a school where (assuming you're a committed, disciplined, focused student) more than three-quarters of your classmates can't touch you, where they're not even in the same league with you. It takes confidence and dedication, but it can be done.

You are about to graduate, are apparently light years ahead of more than 3/4 of your classmates intellectually, and still don't have biglaw lined up despite three years of hustle and networking. That seems to push strongly against your earlier comment that "for biglaw in general BLS is not a bad place to be."


VG- I'm not going disagree with you about your school and the opportunities there which i literally know nothing about, personally.

I'm just saying that the message you're sending to OP is that this is even a feasible/doable thing if you "grind" and work hard enough? i just don't think thats the whole truth man. i bet you could be the best student and very top of the class and if you happened to not be well connected/get extremely lucky/have a partner want to leave his or her spouse for you, you're probably screwed out of big law. I'm really not trying to say it doesnt happen - just trying to let OP know that this is super not something to put all eggs (or some eggs, or maybe even one whole egg) in one basket for, when you really cant rely on it.
just saying, doesnt seem like it should be the basis for a major decision, like funding a law school tuition

Parkcardy- if you are not set on big law, pick the school that has a local market you would most like to work in once you figure out your cost of attendance etc. if you have a good personality and you don't mind staying local, definitely do not underestimate the power of networking. its just that only goes so far with big law

aside though- I would highly recommend not going to hastings. unless you want to be a PD its one of the roughest markets. theres berkley and stanford right there. just choose wisely and don't be discouraged about taking the lsat again. it could open lots of doors for you both financially and opportunity wise.




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