Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

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Rutgers- Newark ($$$) vs. Cardozo ($$$)

Rutgers- Newark
4
27%
Cardozo
11
73%
 
Total votes: 15

NJSplitter
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Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby NJSplitter » Fri May 08, 2015 6:48 pm

TLS I need your help,

I have narrowed down my options to Cardozo with $150k scholarship with top 80% stipulation and Rutger-Newark with $72k scholarship with something like top 85% stip.

My plans for each school would be:

Cardozo: 1yr school housing in NYC, 2 years hoboken/JC. I've estimated COA to be around $85k for the 3 years.

Rutgers: Live at home for 1 yr (45min commute) and hoboken/JC for 2 yrs. Estimated COA $62k.

Some background info:

I am 24yr old and am currently living at home w. my parents in Bergen County. My stats are gpa 2.79/LSAT 173 and I unfortunately cannot retake the first two years of undergrad as a mech.E.

While I do not know for sure which area of law I want to practice in, I do not have any intentions of pursuing big law. I would like working in a midsize NJ firm and would definitely like working in NYC. I currently work for a successful 20 attorney personal injury firm in northern jersey and working there is definitely something I would consider. I really enjoy being in the courtroom and believe I would be a successful litigator. However, I don't want to limit my options (any further than going to a middle of the pack LS does) and recognize that I may discover I am more interested in other areas of law.

In addition, I am quite justifiably not a fan of Newark and love Manhattan.

In the end the question is this, is it worth the extra $20k+ in living costs for (what I believe will be) the better experience of going to school in NYC and the slightly greater opportunity to land a NYC job? And would going to Cardozo noticeably decrease my chances of getting a job in a midsize Bergen County/Northern NJ firm? Which would you choose?

I would greatly appreciate all opinions on this matter. I know at this point its a personal choice to make but any input from those who have gone through or are going through similar decisions, and from those with insight into the matter, would be extremely helpful.

Thanks!
Last edited by NJSplitter on Sun May 10, 2015 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adil91
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby adil91 » Fri May 08, 2015 9:31 pm

Did you apply to WUSTL?

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stego
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby stego » Fri May 08, 2015 9:58 pm

adil91 wrote:Did you apply to WUSTL?


Why would you apply to WUSTL if you live in New Jersey and want to practice in NYC or New Jersey?

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pancakes3
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby pancakes3 » Fri May 08, 2015 10:00 pm

top 80%, top 85% means you're in that percentile, or percent of the class?

BigZuck
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 08, 2015 10:13 pm

What do you mean by midsize firm? Do you mean places like the one you work at now?

NJSplitter
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby NJSplitter » Sun May 10, 2015 3:08 pm

adil91 wrote:Did you apply to WUSTL?

No I decided not to. As stasg said, I want to practice in the tri-state area and also have no desire to ever live in St. Louis.

pancakes3 wrote:top 80%, top 85% means you're in that percentile, or percent of the class?


Top 80/85% of the class. Definitely not 80th percentile.

BigZuck wrote:What do you mean by midsize firm? Do you mean places like the one you work at now?


Yea, I would consider the place I work at now midsize albeit on the smaller side (20ish attorneys). But I would define midsize as a firm with 20-100 attorneys.

Added a poll to make it easier. Thanks.

BigZuck
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby BigZuck » Sun May 10, 2015 4:00 pm

Can you give us some specific examples of the types of firms you're thinking of? And how are they different than big law? What are the qualifications you need to get hired at one of those firms?

I'm just trying to understand what exactly your goals are here and how these schools fit in with those career aspirations.

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chuckbass
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby chuckbass » Sun May 10, 2015 6:32 pm

stasg wrote:
adil91 wrote:Did you apply to WUSTL?


Why would you apply to WUSTL if you live in New Jersey and want to practice in NYC or New Jersey?

WUSTL does much better than these schools wrt NYC biglaw, but OP said he/she doesn't want biglaw, so this makes no sense.

adil91
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby adil91 » Sun May 10, 2015 8:48 pm

stasg wrote:
adil91 wrote:Did you apply to WUSTL?


Why would you apply to WUSTL if you live in New Jersey and want to practice in NYC or New Jersey?


Well as a splitter he could get quite a bit in terms of scholarship money and WUSTL places better in New York than Rutgers

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chuckbass
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby chuckbass » Sun May 10, 2015 9:29 pm

adil91 wrote:
stasg wrote:
adil91 wrote:Did you apply to WUSTL?


Why would you apply to WUSTL if you live in New Jersey and want to practice in NYC or New Jersey?


Well as a splitter he could get quite a bit in terms of scholarship money and WUSTL places better in New York than Rutgers

Did you not see my post? It places better for biglaw, but OP doesn't want biglaw.

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transferror
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby transferror » Sun May 10, 2015 9:45 pm

OP, keep pressing on Rutgers for $$. They've given full ride + 10k stipend in the past and as late as the very end of May. I think 60k is already reasonable for your non-biglaw goals + NJ/NYC preference + ties, but I'd bet you can get the price down.

Also, if you attend Rutgers, understand that NYC is possible but not at all probable.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sun May 10, 2015 10:48 pm

Not even close
Cardozo for free is a great option given your goals

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Winston1984
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby Winston1984 » Mon May 11, 2015 9:50 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Not even close
Cardozo for free is a great option given your goals

But it's not, it's $85k.

rwhyAn
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby rwhyAn » Mon May 11, 2015 1:30 pm

OP, is there any reason you couldn't live at home all 3 years and commute? I just don't see the point in racking up that much debt to live in NYC or Hoboken just because living with your parents isn't cool. You're only 24, so it's perfectly acceptable to be living at home to save since you'll be a full-time student. You could easily save $12-15,000 per year and maybe grab a free meal every now and again. If you have legitimate reasons why that's not feasible, that's cool, but you need to minimize your debt from these schools. Good luck with whatever you choose, and try to use that LSAT score to your advantage when negotiating.

NJSplitter
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby NJSplitter » Mon May 11, 2015 2:09 pm

BigZuck wrote:Can you give us some specific examples of the types of firms you're thinking of? And how are they different than big law? What are the qualifications you need to get hired at one of those firms?

I'm just trying to understand what exactly your goals are here and how these schools fit in with those career aspirations.


What are my goals? I want to practice law. Hopefully I will be able to spend time in a courtroom and try cases in front of a jury. Since I have only experienced personal injury/civil litigation I cant really comment on what area I KNOW I want to practice in. However, I believe there are a lot of areas I would be happy in. I have had lots of experience with mediation and dispute resolution. That's a field I think I would enjoy and be successful at. The only areas I have an aversion to are family law, wills & estates, Landlord/tenant, etc. To be honest, I don't think I would mind the work of a BigLaw associate and have no problems with working hard. But, the idea of working 80+ hrs a week and the concept of being on call 24/7 is not something that interests me, fat paycheck or not. Although this doesn't answer your question exactly, it may give a better idea of my goals.

transferror wrote:OP, keep pressing on Rutgers for $$. They've given full ride + 10k stipend in the past and as late as the very end of May. I think 60k is already reasonable for your non-biglaw goals + NJ/NYC preference + ties, but I'd bet you can get the price down.

Also, if you attend Rutgers, understand that NYC is possible but not at all probable.
.

The last time I contacted them (admittedly before Cardozo upped their offer to 150k) Rutgers said that I had received the highest scholarship they are awarding this year and couldn't offer me any more. Ill contact them again and see if I can squeeze some more though.

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Not even close
Cardozo for free is a great option given your goals


Winston1984 wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Not even close
Cardozo for free is a great option given your goals

But it's not, it's $85k.


This. If they were both free this would be a much easier decision (I would go to Cardozo). But as someone who is debt averse (as we all should be) the idea of even spending 80k as opposed to 60k is distasteful. Especially if the cheaper option gives me the same opportunity (which in the end, is what I am asking).

rwhyAn wrote:OP, is there any reason you couldn't live at home all 3 years and commute? I just don't see the point in racking up that much debt to live in NYC or Hoboken just because living with your parents isn't cool. You're only 24, so it's perfectly acceptable to be living at home to save since you'll be a full-time student. You could easily save $12-15,000 per year and maybe grab a free meal every now and again. If you have legitimate reasons why that's not feasible, that's cool, but you need to minimize your debt from these schools. Good luck with whatever you choose, and try to use that LSAT score to your advantage when negotiating.


Its something I have strongly (and still am) considered but in the end I think it will be more difficult for me to achieve the level of success necessary at these schools, if I was living at home. In addition to the opportunity cost of 10ish hrs/wk of travel, and the difficulty of managing other aspects of my life (social) from home, I also know that being in an environment where I'm not fully independent (not possible at my home) will hinder my success. Idk if those are legitimate or not but that's my reasoning.

Thanks for all the advice so far!

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chuckbass
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby chuckbass » Mon May 11, 2015 2:11 pm

Yeah don't commute for 1L.

donewithannarbor
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby donewithannarbor » Mon May 11, 2015 4:57 pm

Rutgers. See: http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/NY/

May I ask how you are arriving at 62k cost of living at Rutgers-Newark? Tuition-wise, you are completely covered by that scholarship, or very close to it. You're allotting quite the budget for books and living-- even though it sounds like you are starting out w/your parents?

Anyway, no need to belabor that point. You effectively have a full ride at each and the issue is added costs of NYC and the relative value of the degrees. You need to consider which place you are more likely to excel at. I love Manhattan too but I was not the least bit deprived going to school in Newark, 20 mins away. And frankly, if you are commuting to Cardozo daily from somewhere in Bergen, that doesn't exactly sound like living the Manhattan dream. Bottom line is you need to think long and hard about what school sets you up better. Sounds to me like you're leaning towards the school with poorer jobs output based on undue consideration of which city you hop off the train in everyday (ps downtown Newark, while not charming, is not the Newark that makes news headlines...it is, frankly, quite palatable).

But again, review the detailed info here:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/NY/

Also, I agree: avoid 1L commuting. Live by the law school.

NJSplitter
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby NJSplitter » Mon May 11, 2015 7:30 pm

donewithannarbor wrote:Rutgers. See: http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/NY/

May I ask how you are arriving at 62k cost of living at Rutgers-Newark? Tuition-wise, you are completely covered by that scholarship, or very close to it. You're allotting quite the budget for books and living-- even though it sounds like you are starting out w/your parents?

Anyway, no need to belabor that point. You effectively have a full ride at each and the issue is added costs of NYC and the relative value of the degrees. You need to consider which place you are more likely to excel at. I love Manhattan too but I was not the least bit deprived going to school in Newark, 20 mins away. And frankly, if you are commuting to Cardozo daily from somewhere in Bergen, that doesn't exactly sound like living the Manhattan dream. Bottom line is you need to think long and hard about what school sets you up better. Sounds to me like you're leaning towards the school with poorer jobs output based on undue consideration of which city you hop off the train in everyday (ps downtown Newark, while not charming, is not the Newark that makes news headlines...it is, frankly, quite palatable).

But again, review the detailed info here:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/NY/

Also, I agree: avoid 1L commuting. Live by the law school.


Well, I would live in the city 1L then across the river 2/3L. But you make a compelling argument, the numbers don't lie (unless they do). Why would anyone ever go to Cardozo if, as these reports show, RU-N has higher legal employment, lower legal unemployment, places better in BigLaw, places better in NY, places better in NJ, places better for federal clerkships AND is cheaper?

Can anyone, especially those who were "championing" Cardozo (in my scenario or any other where its Dozo vs RU), dispute any of the points made by donewithannarbor and lstscorereports.com?

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transferror
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby transferror » Mon May 11, 2015 7:51 pm

NJSplitter wrote:
donewithannarbor wrote:Rutgers. See: http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/NY/

May I ask how you are arriving at 62k cost of living at Rutgers-Newark? Tuition-wise, you are completely covered by that scholarship, or very close to it. You're allotting quite the budget for books and living-- even though it sounds like you are starting out w/your parents?

Anyway, no need to belabor that point. You effectively have a full ride at each and the issue is added costs of NYC and the relative value of the degrees. You need to consider which place you are more likely to excel at. I love Manhattan too but I was not the least bit deprived going to school in Newark, 20 mins away. And frankly, if you are commuting to Cardozo daily from somewhere in Bergen, that doesn't exactly sound like living the Manhattan dream. Bottom line is you need to think long and hard about what school sets you up better. Sounds to me like you're leaning towards the school with poorer jobs output based on undue consideration of which city you hop off the train in everyday (ps downtown Newark, while not charming, is not the Newark that makes news headlines...it is, frankly, quite palatable).

But again, review the detailed info here:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/state/NY/

Also, I agree: avoid 1L commuting. Live by the law school.


Well, I would live in the city 1L then across the river 2/3L. But you make a compelling argument, the numbers don't lie (unless they do). Why would anyone ever go to Cardozo if, as these reports show, RU-N has higher legal employment, lower legal unemployment, places better in BigLaw, places better in NY, places better in NJ, places better for federal clerkships AND is cheaper?

Can anyone, especially those who were championing Cardozo (in my scenario or any other where its Dozo vs RU), dispute any of the points made by donewithannarbor and lstscorereports.com?


I'm not in favor of Dozo but I think you're overstating and misidentifying the Rutgers advantage. The biglaw numbers, legal employment numbers, and unemployment numbers are about the same, I mean IIRC all are like a 2-7% difference. These are peer schools and your debt + goals should be the determining factor.

You're wrong about RU-N placing better in NY. You're more likely to get NYC from Dozo (70%) vs. Rutgers (20%). I think the advantage is that Rutgers gives you a better safety net b/c if you whiff in NYC you'll be looking in NJ anyway, and Rutgers + NJ ties + low debt + modest goals is an OK outcome.

If you were dead set on NYC or did not have ties to NJ, I'd probably say retake or don't go.

NJSplitter
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby NJSplitter » Tue May 12, 2015 1:40 am

While some compelling arguments have been made, I'm seriously leaning towards Cardozo.

Does anyone know if Cardozo is willing to negotiate scholarship stipulations? While I hope and plan for it to never be an issue, I would feel more comfortable (especially for my 2L/3L years) if Cardozo's stipulation (2.9 gpa roughly top 80% of class) was similar to Rutgers' (2.67 GPA).

Thanks for all the feedback and I'm still greatly interested in anyone's thoughts/advice.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue May 12, 2015 1:50 am

Are you sure about those numbers? At most shitty schools (I went to one) a 2.9 is median after first year. Seems odd that 80% of the class would have at least a 2.9.

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PeanutsNJam
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby PeanutsNJam » Tue May 12, 2015 4:03 am

Damn shame you're going to a TT with T14/T20$$$ numbers but I guess if you're NJ or bust then :-/.

OP would be looking at $ from NU, and probably an admit or two at some other T14s.

NJSplitter
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby NJSplitter » Tue May 12, 2015 9:23 am

PeanutsNJam wrote:Damn shame you're going to a TT with T14/T20$$$ numbers but I guess if you're NJ or bust then :-/.

OP would be looking at $ from NU, and probably an admit or two at some other T14s.


I was waitlisted at NYU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, and Fordham. I got into GW with a 25k scholarship but frankly I don't think thats enough to justify attending. Most other T14 schools I would have been interested in place too much value in GPA for me to have had a chance. While my 173 is powerful, a gpa below a 2.8 is pretty destructive, as you know. Perhaps I should have applied to Cornell, UT and NU but I don't think it would have made a difference.

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Tue May 12, 2015 9:30 am

NJSplitter wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:Damn shame you're going to a TT with T14/T20$$$ numbers but I guess if you're NJ or bust then :-/.

OP would be looking at $ from NU, and probably an admit or two at some other T14s.


I was waitlisted at NYU, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, and Fordham. I got into GW with a 25k scholarship but frankly I don't think thats enough to justify attending. Most other T14 schools I would have been interested in place too much value in GPA for me to have had a chance. While my 173 is powerful, a gpa below a 2.8 is pretty destructive, as you know. PerhapsI should have applied to Cornell, UT and NU; but I don't think it would have made a difference.


ftfy. OP, you should consider getting a bit more work experience and reapplying next year. Your current options will, in all likelihood, still be there next year and you could have better options/more leverage with those schools you listed as options.

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TasmanianToucan
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Re: Cardozo ($$$) v. Rutgers-Newark ($$$)

Postby TasmanianToucan » Tue May 12, 2015 9:39 am

Take another year and reapply, this time to the whole T14+UT+WUSTL and maybe a couple of others, if only for scholly leverage.

The extra year of work experience will put some distance between you and that GPA of yours. (With that 173 you're clearly smart; you must have had A LOT of fun in college...)

EDIT: NM, just saw OP did mech.e for their first two years. Sorry, I take it back.




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