NYU $ v Berkeley $$$$. Am I crazy? Forum

[Comma.Split]

Hey everyone. Thank you for your input, especially if it was constructive. I did a hell lot of data mining and analysis and these are the results that I got. I am pretty confident the numbers are correct because I ran it by a friend who has a PhD in stats from an Ivy.

Overall BigLaw placement (based on c/o 2012-2014 data):
- Berkeley is at the very least 6% and at the very most 12% worse in BigLaw placement (the 6% includes the difference in unemployment and the number of people working in small firms; the 12% includes also includes part of the difference in non-legal jobs, (assuming that some of those guys wanted BigLaw but didn't get it)). I.e. 6%-12% more students at Berkeley applying for BigLaw don't get it.

Specific firm placement (based on c/o 2013 data):
Assuming that everyone came to school wanting BigLaw (minus federal clerks), 32% of NYU students end up in V25, and 20% of Berkeley students.
Assuming that those who got jobs in government and PI didn't want BigLaw in the first place, 42% of those who wanted BigLaw at NYU got V25 and only 26% at Berkeley.
When it comes to V25-50, the percentage numbers of placement are identical.

If you want more detailed info, feel free to PM me.

Assuming my numbers are correct, how much more would you pay for the difference if anything?

[rpupkin]

Specific firm placement (based on c/o 2013 data):
Assuming that everyone came to school wanting BigLaw (minus federal clerks), 32% of NYU students end up in V25, and 20% of Berkeley students.
Assuming that those who got jobs in government and PI didn't want BigLaw in the first place, 42% of those who wanted BigLaw at NYU got V25 and only 26% at Berkeley.
When it comes to V25-50, the percentage numbers of placement are identical.

Hey OP: Outside of the world of NYC corporate/M&A practice, the Vault rankings don't correlate with prestige or desirable outcomes. I didn't go to Boalt, but I imagine that its best students would prefer unranked boutiques or somewhere like Munger (which is ranked in the 30s, I believe) over the the satellite offices of "V10" firms in California. In other words, Berkeley probably has plenty of students who could work at highly-ranked Vault firms but who choose to work elsewhere because they have better options. For that reason, it's really misleading to rely on Vault when comparing a California school and a NYC school.

[Comma.Split]

Specific firm placement (based on c/o 2013 data):
Assuming that everyone came to school wanting BigLaw (minus federal clerks), 32% of NYU students end up in V25, and 20% of Berkeley students.
Assuming that those who got jobs in government and PI didn't want BigLaw in the first place, 42% of those who wanted BigLaw at NYU got V25 and only 26% at Berkeley.
When it comes to V25-50, the percentage numbers of placement are identical.

Hey OP: Outside of the world of NYC corporate/M&A practice, the Vault rankings don't correlate with prestige or desirable outcomes. I didn't go to Boalt, but I imagine that its best students would prefer unranked boutiques or somewhere like Munger (which is ranked in the 30s, I believe) over the the satellite offices of "V10" firms in California. In other words, Berkeley probably has plenty of students who could work at highly-ranked Vault firms but who choose to work elsewhere because they have better options. For that reason, it's really misleading to rely on Vault when comparing a California school and a NYC school.

What would be the reasoning behind turning down let's say Skadden/ Davis Polk/ Gibson (largest employers of Berkeley students) to work for an unranked small boutique if you are a top student? I don't understand the logic. Better hours?

[L’Étranger]

Hey everyone. Thank you for your input, especially if it was constructive. I did a hell lot of data mining and analysis and these are the results that I got. I am pretty confident the numbers are correct because I ran it by a friend who has a PhD in stats from an Ivy.

Overall BigLaw placement (based on c/o 2012-2014 data):
- Berkeley is at the very least 6% and at the very most 12% worse in BigLaw placement (the 6% includes the difference in unemployment and the number of people working in small firms; the 12% includes also includes part of the difference in non-legal jobs, (assuming that some of those guys wanted BigLaw but didn't get it)). I.e. 6%-12% more students at Berkeley applying for BigLaw don't get it.

Specific firm placement (based on c/o 2013 data):
Assuming that everyone came to school wanting BigLaw (minus federal clerks), 32% of NYU students end up in V25, and 20% of Berkeley students.
Assuming that those who got jobs in government and PI didn't want BigLaw in the first place, 42% of those who wanted BigLaw at NYU got V25 and only 26% at Berkeley.
When it comes to V25-50, the percentage numbers of placement are identical.

If you want more detailed info, feel free to PM me.

Assuming my numbers are correct, how much more would you pay for the difference if anything?

I'm going to say the same thing that usually get said on TLS when folks try to troll B's placement numbers --> The majority of students at B came to B to work in CA. CA is a much tougher market to crack than NYC, hence, if there actually is a difference between B and NYU, that is why.

Every time you ask on here "how much more would you pay," I'm thinking WTF?

If your heart tells you that you have to be at NYU, then by all means go. But you are just trolling the shit out B by trying to string together an argument where going to NYU over B for an additional 140k makes any kind of objective sense.

[downbeat14]

Berk and it's not even close. You should make a poll. I hope you don't end up taking out way more debt for NYU here, bc it's just not worth the slight placement advantage.

Good luck either way!

[usn26]

If your heart tells you that you have to be at NYU, then by all means go. But you are just trolling the shit out B by trying to string together an argument where going to NYU over B for an additional 140k makes any kind of objective sense.

Just go to NYU, OP. You've been led to water, but if you don't want to drink that's your call.

[Tiago Splitter]

Specific firm placement (based on c/o 2013 data):
Assuming that everyone came to school wanting BigLaw (minus federal clerks), 32% of NYU students end up in V25, and 20% of Berkeley students.
Assuming that those who got jobs in government and PI didn't want BigLaw in the first place, 42% of those who wanted BigLaw at NYU got V25 and only 26% at Berkeley.
When it comes to V25-50, the percentage numbers of placement are identical.

Hey OP: Outside of the world of NYC corporate/M&A practice, the Vault rankings don't correlate with prestige or desirable outcomes. I didn't go to Boalt, but I imagine that its best students would prefer unranked boutiques or somewhere like Munger (which is ranked in the 30s, I believe) over the the satellite offices of "V10" firms in California. In other words, Berkeley probably has plenty of students who could work at highly-ranked Vault firms but who choose to work elsewhere because they have better options. For that reason, it's really misleading to rely on Vault when comparing a California school and a NYC school.

What would be the reasoning behind turning down let's say Skadden/ Davis Polk/ Gibson (largest employers of Berkeley students) to work for an unranked small boutique if you are a top student? I don't understand the logic. Better hours?

He's not even comparing Vault vs. non-Vault, just V25 vs. non-V25. You'll see a lot more self-selection towards Munger, Irell, WSGR, Fenwick, etc. from Berk than from NYU. The unranked boutiques are just really elite lit firms, not ones with better hours. The numbers suggest not many people are going to those places, but plenty could be opting out of the V25.

[OhBoyOhBortles]

If your heart tells you that you have to be at NYU, then by all means go. But you are just trolling the shit out B by trying to string together an argument where going to NYU over B for an additional 140k makes any kind of objective sense.

Just go to NYU, OP. You've been led to water, but if you don't want to drink that's your call.

[KMart]

OP, Berk. Seriously. Ultimately it's your call, but we can only do so much for you if you're dead set on NYU. I think you secretly knew the answer but were hoping we might say NYU is justifiable.

[SLS_AMG]

NYU. If you're going to be this objectively unreasonable about your decision despite all evidence to the contrary, be our guest. But don't come here to whine when your loan payments start coming due.

Also lol @ comparing V-25 numbers when only 2/10 V10 firms even have offices in SF and a whole slew of the V25 (WLRK, CSM, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Debevoise, W&C) don't even have offices west of the Mississippi. And of course the V25s offices tend to be smaller than a lot of the native firms like WSGR, Orrick, Cooley, etc.

[Tiago Splitter]

Also lol @ comparing V-25 numbers when only 2/10 V10 firms even have offices in SF and a whole slew of the V25 (WLRK, CSM, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Debevoise, W&C) don't even have offices west of the Mississippi. And of course the V25s offices tend to be smaller than a lot of the native firms like WSGR, Orrick, Cooley, etc.

I'm with you as long as by "2/10" you mean "7/10"

[SLS_AMG]

Also lol @ comparing V-25 numbers when only 2/10 V10 firms even have offices in SF and a whole slew of the V25 (WLRK, CSM, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Debevoise, W&C) don't even have offices west of the Mississippi. And of course the V25s offices tend to be smaller than a lot of the native firms like WSGR, Orrick, Cooley, etc.

I'm with you as long as by "2/10" you mean "7/10"

Only K&E and Latham have SF offices.

[Tiago Splitter]

Also lol @ comparing V-25 numbers when only 2/10 V10 firms even have offices in SF and a whole slew of the V25 (WLRK, CSM, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Debevoise, W&C) don't even have offices west of the Mississippi. And of course the V25s offices tend to be smaller than a lot of the native firms like WSGR, Orrick, Cooley, etc.

I'm with you as long as by "2/10" you mean "7/10"

Only K&E and Latham have SF offices.

Weird distinction, especially when the OP has never been to SF, but ok.

[rpupkin]

What would be the reasoning behind turning down let's say Skadden/ Davis Polk/ Gibson (largest employers of Berkeley students) to work for an unranked small boutique if you are a top student? I don't understand the logic. Better hours?

As Tiago already explained, the main issue here is your metric of V25 vs. non-V25, as a lot of the desirable California firms and offices aren't in the V25.

But to answer your specific question, a student would choose an elite unranked boutique over Skadden/Davis Polk/Gibson because of more interesting work, more direct client contact, better exit options for litigators, higher pay (in some cases), and "prestige" (because you need better grades and credentials to get hired at those boutiques compared to Skadden/Davis Polk/Gibson).

[Comma.Split]

What would be the reasoning behind turning down let's say Skadden/ Davis Polk/ Gibson (largest employers of Berkeley students) to work for an unranked small boutique if you are a top student? I don't understand the logic. Better hours?

As Tiago already explained, the main issue here is your metric of V25 vs. non-V25, as a lot of the desirable California firms and offices aren't in the V25.

But to answer your specific question, a student would choose an elite unranked boutique over Skadden/Davis Polk/Gibson because of more interesting work, more direct client contact, better exit options for litigators, higher pay (in some cases), and "prestige" (because you need better grades and credentials to get hired at those boutiques compared to Skadden/Davis Polk/Gibson).

Thanks for explaining and pointing out the flaws in my analysis. Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to learn a little more about the legal and get some feedback from the forum to avoid making stupid mistakes. So far, your input has been helpful and, I am thankful to all of you.

With that in mind, I redid the analysis, but this time I used the NLJ 250, which includes all the firms you pointed out. There is an official database with each NLJ250 firm and the number of students they took from each school. So, with some basic statistics you get: NYU: 55% v Berkeley 45%.

Keep in mind that PI/Clerkship/Government numbers for the two schools were nearly identical in 2013. So, there is no self-selection bias here. The 10% difference for Berkeley comes from:
a) 6% more student went to firms outside NLJ 250 (can we assume this is a bad thing?)
b) 2% more didn't find any jobs
c) 2% more got non-legal jobs (I know that this is not necessarily a bad thing, but I assume that if you go to law school --> you want to be a lawyer).

I certainly won't pay $140k for a 8-10% difference, but I want to quantify the difference to be able to compare my investment. Any thoughts, ideas, or corrections are appreciated.

[rpupkin]

a) 6% more student went to firms outside NLJ 250 (can we assume this is a bad thing?)

No.

[Comma.Split]

a) 6% more student went to firms outside NLJ 250 (can we assume this is a bad thing?)

No.

Would you mind sharing why? Are there any firms outside NLJ 250 that are similarly desirable/prestigious/sought after? Can you name one or two please? Thanks!

[Tiago Splitter]

NYU is better. But not worth the cost difference.

Keker and Van Nest is the classic example of the elite boutique (non-NLJ250) that hires only HYSB but that's probably 1-2 people. There might be others.

[rpupkin]

a) 6% more student went to firms outside NLJ 250 (can we assume this is a bad thing?)

No.

Would you mind sharing why? Are there any firms outside NLJ 250 that are similarly desirable/prestigious/sought after? Can you name one or two please? Thanks!

Sorry, I just answered your question in the previous post about litigation boutiques. These boutiques are not in the NLJ 250, and they're more desirable for an associate than basically all of the firms in the NLJ 250.

Now, the most elite boutiques basically require a clerkship, so the "clerkship" numbers capture most of the grads who end up in those jobs. But I work in California, and there are plenty of small firms (think less than 60 attorneys) with interesting practices and decent pay that don't require a clerkship. There are, for example, quite a few IP boutiques around. Berkeley and Stanford grads work in these places. I suspect that the compensation at these firms is usually (but not always) less than big law lockstep, but I wouldn't call these firms "bad outcomes" for grads. Far from it.

Look, I'm not saying that every Berkeley grad in a firm "outside the NLJ 250" has some dream boutique job. But I am saying that you can't assume that all (or even most) of those in that category have a bad outcome.

[Comma.Split]

a) 6% more student went to firms outside NLJ 250 (can we assume this is a bad thing?)

No.

Would you mind sharing why? Are there any firms outside NLJ 250 that are similarly desirable/prestigious/sought after? Can you name one or two please? Thanks!

Sorry, I just answered your question in the previous post about litigation boutiques. These boutiques are not in the NLJ 250, and they're more desirable for an associate than basically all of the firms in the NLJ 250.

Now, the most elite boutiques basically require a clerkship, so the "clerkship" numbers capture most of the grads who end up in those jobs. But I work in California, and there are plenty of small firms (think less than 60 attorneys) with interesting practices and decent pay that don't require a clerkship. There are, for example, quite a few IP boutiques around. Berkeley and Stanford grads work in these places. I suspect that the compensation at these firms is usually (but not always) less than big law lockstep, but I wouldn't call these firms "bad outcomes" for grads. Far from it.

Look, I'm not saying that every Berkeley grad in a firm "outside the NLJ 250" has some dream boutique job. But I am saying that you can't assume that all (or even most) of those in that category have a bad outcome.

Got you! Thanks for clarifying!

[jbagelboy]

NYU is better. But not worth the cost difference.

Keker and Van Nest is the classic example of the elite boutique (non-NLJ250) that hires only HYSB but that's probably 1-2 people. There might be others.

Why would you say this about KVN? E.g. http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Rothstein-Ben; http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Lazarus-Kate; ect. Plenty of attorneys not from those four schools.

[Tiago Splitter]

NYU is better. But not worth the cost difference.

Keker and Van Nest is the classic example of the elite boutique (non-NLJ250) that hires only HYSB but that's probably 1-2 people. There might be others.

Why would you say this about KVN? E.g. http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Rothstein-Ben; http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Lazarus-Kate; ect. Plenty of attorneys not from those four schools.

We've got 11 associates from Boalt and 0 from NYU. Don't be dense. If you want to balance it out point out small boutiques that tend to only hire NYU and not Berk.

[jbagelboy]

NYU is better. But not worth the cost difference.

Keker and Van Nest is the classic example of the elite boutique (non-NLJ250) that hires only HYSB but that's probably 1-2 people. There might be others.

Why would you say this about KVN? E.g. http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Rothstein-Ben; http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Lazarus-Kate; ect. Plenty of attorneys not from those four schools.

We've got 11 associates from Boalt and 0 from NYU. Don't be dense. If you want to balance it out point out small boutiques that tend to only hire NYU and not Berk.

I don't know if I buy into this whole "berkeley grads self select into elite firms more often than east coast schools so that clears their weak NLJ" schtick. NYU has better firm numbers because more students get jobs at firms. Anyone who wants to work at a super elite boutique has to be an incredibly impressive candidate from either school so it's hardly a relevant metric.

[rpupkin]

NYU is better. But not worth the cost difference.

Keker and Van Nest is the classic example of the elite boutique (non-NLJ250) that hires only HYSB but that's probably 1-2 people. There might be others.

Why would you say this about KVN? E.g. http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Rothstein-Ben; http://www.kvn.com/Lawyers/Lazarus-Kate; ect. Plenty of attorneys not from those four schools.

Those links are broken but I'll take a wild guess that those two people went to CLS.

[jbagelboy]

Regardless, as I said earlier in this thread, OP is a fucking idiot if they pay $200k to go to NYU when they have this berkeley option on the table. Very comparable opportunities from either school. I'm not fighting y'all here