Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school should I choose?

Poll ended at Thu May 07, 2015 4:14 am

Oklahoma City University
4
40%
Alabama
6
60%
Northeastern University
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

kfh37
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby kfh37 » Fri May 01, 2015 8:25 am

.
Last edited by kfh37 on Sat May 02, 2015 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BVest
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby BVest » Fri May 01, 2015 10:41 am

(a) As stated, transfers generally go at sticker.

(b) Do not attend any law school with the intention of transferring. Never start at a law school you're not entirely comfortable graduating from.

(c) You took the LSAT once and got a 167. With a couple more tries you'll certainly get same or higher.

(d) If you're that concerned about how you'll perform on future LSATs, register TODAY for the June LSAT. (Today is the standard registration deadline).

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OhBoyOhBortles
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri May 01, 2015 10:44 am

BVest wrote:(a) As stated, transfers generally go at sticker.

(b) Do not attend any law school with the intention of transferring. Never start at a law school you're not entirely comfortable graduating from.

(c) You took the LSAT once and got a 167. With a couple more tries you'll certainly get same or higher.

(d) If you're that concerned about how you'll perform on future LSATs, register TODAY for the June LSAT. (Today is the standard registration deadline).

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stego
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby stego » Fri May 01, 2015 6:26 pm

Like everyone has said - with your numbers you should be deciding between strong regionals in your desired market for free or a T14 with some $. I'm sure you could find something to do in OKC for the year. What were you doing in WI?


I was doing tech stuff, didn't like it. Lost my job and have been unemployed for a few months.

What are people considering "strong regionals"? Would I be correct in assuming Alabama and Wisconsin are both considered strong regionals for people who want to stay in those respective states? Wisconsin offered me a full ride but with my family and girlfriend being elsewhere I decided I didn't want to stay in Wisconsin (even though I love the city).

For the Northeast, strong regionals outside the T14, are we talking BU and Fordham? For Oklahoma, I guess UT would count, but it's over 6 hours away. And I'd have to become a Longhorn. Ugh.

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strugglebus
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby strugglebus » Fri May 01, 2015 6:46 pm

stasg wrote:
Like everyone has said - with your numbers you should be deciding between strong regionals in your desired market for free or a T14 with some $. I'm sure you could find something to do in OKC for the year. What were you doing in WI?


I was doing tech stuff, didn't like it. Lost my job and have been unemployed for a few months.

What are people considering "strong regionals"? Would I be correct in assuming Alabama and Wisconsin are both considered strong regionals for people who want to stay in those respective states? Wisconsin offered me a full ride but with my family and girlfriend being elsewhere I decided I didn't want to stay in Wisconsin (even though I love the city).

For the Northeast, strong regionals outside the T14, are we talking BU and Fordham? For Oklahoma, I guess UT would count, but it's over 6 hours away. And I'd have to become a Longhorn. Ugh.

If you want strong employment prospects / have the sorts of goals you're talking about (especially leaving Oklahoma at some point), you're going to have to be willing to move to somewhere with a law school that has better outcomes than these options. It'd be a shame to see your GPA wasted by not retaking and reapplying.

Traynor Brah
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Traynor Brah » Fri May 01, 2015 6:55 pm

OP: I sent you a PM (look at the top left part of the page by your name)

adil91
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby adil91 » Fri May 01, 2015 7:08 pm

1) Retake and Reapply

2) Get accepted to Texas with $$$$

3) Visit your lady on the weekends

4) ????

5) Profit

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stego
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby stego » Sat May 02, 2015 9:34 pm

I registered for the June LSAT yesterday so I'll probably be retaking. I can't believe I actually did that. I have a campus visit to Alabama this upcoming week and I'm moving to OKC later this month.

Indifference
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Indifference » Sun May 03, 2015 1:19 pm

stasg wrote:I registered for the June LSAT yesterday so I'll probably be retaking. I can't believe I actually did that. I have a campus visit to Alabama this upcoming week and I'm moving to OKC later this month.


Good choice on the retake OP. Your GPA deserves a better school than the options you have right now.

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lawdoggy
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby lawdoggy » Sun May 03, 2015 2:51 pm

Be sure to speak with a few segregationists while at Alabama :lol:

CanadianWolf
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 04, 2015 12:39 pm

Among your three current options, Alabama is the clear choice, in my opinion.
Alabama uses the Uniform Bar Exam (UBE) which means that if you take the Alabama bar exam, your score transfers easily among 13 other jurisdictions within certain time limits.

wons
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby wons » Mon May 04, 2015 10:20 pm

Going to Oklahoma City University would be a level of self-destruction rarely seen outside of the heroin-addicted. OP, please, I'm a lawyer and I have multiple friends practicing in Oklahoma. Don't ruin your life for a girl.

Garden District
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Garden District » Mon May 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Traynor Brah wrote:OP: I sent you a PM (look at the top left part of the page by your name)

If you gave him advice you should post it in the thread so it can be criticized if it's bad.

timbs4339
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 05, 2015 10:43 am

Your career goals are all over the map. Some are realistic from OK, AL or Northeastern (to the extent the around-50% place rate at NE makes anything realistic) but others not so much. Clerkships (federal), civil rights, and health law are all areas where going to a T14 is probably the only way that you'd have a reasonable shot of getting one of your dream jobs. If you'd be happy doing blue collar criminal defense work in OK City, great, not enough applicants have such realistic goals. But if you want a good shot at working for DOJ Civil Rights division, for the more prestigious civil rights firms, or doing a federal clerkship, you need to retake. Do some independent contracting for a year and take the test in October and apply then.

The good thing about your situation is you are actually at a point where you can have a good shot at getting one of the jobs at the "top" of your range of preferred outcomes. These jobs could put the next 30 years of your career on a completely different track- you need to retake and open up those options.

To give you an anecdotal success story- I started at a 167 too. Took about 25 PT's over 6 months and hit 175 on the real thing and got into CLS with money. Back in 2008, with a 3.8 GPA, when literally everyone went to law school. If you get similar results you could be looking at a full-ride from CCN or admission to HLS or SLS. Also, your GF might think a bit differently about moving across the country for a fella who goes to Harvard Law School).
Last edited by timbs4339 on Tue May 05, 2015 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

Traynor Brah
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Traynor Brah » Tue May 05, 2015 10:45 am

Garden District wrote:
Traynor Brah wrote:OP: I sent you a PM (look at the top left part of the page by your name)

If you gave him advice you should post it in the thread so it can be criticized if it's bad.

fuck off

SPerez
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby SPerez » Tue May 05, 2015 6:00 pm

OP, why aren't you talking about OU instead of OKC? I'd imagine you would be in full-ride territory there and it's barely 30 minutes from OKC so I would say that would not qualify as a "long distance relationship" by any means. (But yeah, unsolicited relationship advice, never move anywhere for a boy/girl unless there's a ring on the finger.) No offense to my friends at OKC and Northeastern, but there are literally dozens of MUCH better schools you could attend for free all over the country right now, even more if you include ones you could attend for near full rides that are still infinitely better options than two of the 3 you listed.

The counselor in me would want to make sure law is really what you want to do, though. Having that good of an LSAT for that long without going, and now still not really having any specific preference/idea for practice area or even geographic area, would make me leery about whether you're really committed to this whole law school thing. Not on topic, I know, but that's just how I would see an application like this from my perspective. When I see old, very high LSAT scores with no real explanation in the resume for why the person didn't go to law school years ago, the file just screams "flake". (Again, not saying this about you specifically OP, I don't know anything about you, of course. Just saying generally...)

You're clearly very intelligent and therefore could presumably do very well in a number of professions. Don't pick law as a default because you happen to be at a bit of a crossroads right now (unemployed, disillusioned with your past career, new long-distance girlfriend, etc.) and aren't sure which path to follow.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law

jphiggo
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby jphiggo » Tue May 05, 2015 6:12 pm

I read this thread the other day and didn't reply, but I agree with SPerez that you should be looking at OU instead of OKC if you are set on attending law school in Oklahoma.

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stego
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby stego » Wed May 06, 2015 6:58 pm

My girlfriend does not want me to make a law school choice on her account if I would resent her later for making a bad choice. She wants me to go to the right school for pursuing my career goals. She doesn't know much about the legal profession or legal hiring though, so I don't think she would have suggested OCU if she thought it was a bad fit.

timbs4339 wrote:Also, your GF might think a bit differently about moving across the country for a fella who goes to Harvard Law School).


It's possible, but she really doesn't care about the Ivy League. She owns her own home, already has a job that she wants, and has extended family in OKC. I think she'd need to be able to find a similar job in a different city to even consider relocating.

SPerez wrote:OP, why aren't you talking about OU instead of OKC? I'd imagine you would be in full-ride territory there and it's barely 30 minutes from OKC so I would say that would not qualify as a "long distance relationship" by any means. (But yeah, unsolicited relationship advice, never move anywhere for a boy/girl unless there's a ring on the finger.) No offense to my friends at OKC and Northeastern, but there are literally dozens of MUCH better schools you could attend for free all over the country right now, even more if you include ones you could attend for near full rides that are still infinitely better options than two of the 3 you listed.


OU only offered me a $10,000 a year scholarship (compared to $30,398 out-of-state tuition). Now, granted, I probably could have negotiated them higher, but OCU offered full tuition and fees plus a book stipend. Since I lived in Norman for 6 years I kind of thought been there, done that, and OCU is also a LOT closer to where my girlfriend lives.

Now, I have realized in the past two weeks that I have a LOT to learn about how legal hiring works. OCU brags about having the highest employment rate in Oklahoma. If you add up the people at OCU who have either a bar passage required job or a JD advantage job, they have about 88% in 2014 compared to about 85% for OU. The 2014 numbers just came out but I think the 2013 numbers were similar.
What I have realized, of course, thanks largely to TLS, is that if you look more closely at the types of jobs grads get, OU is unquestionably better. But anyway, those are the reasons I was considering OCU and not OU. I would consider going to OU, but they'd probably have to offer me more than full tuition.

I made an official visit to Alabama on Tuesday and I tend to come away from law school visits really liking the school, but I feel like people on here have been selling Alabama a little bit short. Yes, my opportunities would be greater at a T14 school, but Alabama places a higher percentage of grads in federal clerkships than some of the T14 schools do. The top 10-15% of Alabama grads can go national with job placement (yes, I know it's arrogant to assume I would make the top 15%). This might be overconfident but I feel like with my Oklahoma ties I could get median grades at Alabama and make it back to Oklahoma. I understand retaking and blanketing the T14 might be a better option than Alabama with $$$$ but my girlfriend and I are kind of debt-averse.

I know people here say academics and special programs don't matter, but I do feel like Alabama would be a good place to be to study civil rights. Their second-most prestigious law review is a civil rights journal and there might be some connections to things like the Southern Poverty Law Center.

At this point OK is a likely spot to end up but since I don't like the weather and it's not close to my family I don't want to feel trapped there either which I might feel if I went to OU. If my girlfriend and I break up I'm a lot less likely to want to stay in Oklahoma.

S Perez wrote:The counselor in me would want to make sure law is really what you want to do, though. Having that good of an LSAT for that long without going, and now still not really having any specific preference/idea for practice area or even geographic area, would make me leery about whether you're really committed to this whole law school thing. Not on topic, I know, but that's just how I would see an application like this from my perspective. When I see old, very high LSAT scores with no real explanation in the resume for why the person didn't go to law school years ago, the file just screams "flake". (Again, not saying this about you specifically OP, I don't know anything about you, of course. Just saying generally...)

You're clearly very intelligent and therefore could presumably do very well in a number of professions. Don't pick law as a default because you happen to be at a bit of a crossroads right now (unemployed, disillusioned with your past career, new long-distance girlfriend, etc.) and aren't sure which path to follow.

Dean Perez
Texas Tech Law


I'm interested in public interest law (particularly civil rights), health law, and clerkships. I have WE with the healthcare industry (not in the medical field though) and I'm interested in policy/regulatory issues in healthcare and how that might intersect with, for example, poverty law. So I'm not sure I agree that I don't have a specific preference for area of practice, but if that is true, it's because I find too many things interesting.

I appreciate the concern. At this point my plan is to take the next year to retake the LSAT and reapply, try to get some more work experience and hopefully take 2-3 more classes to finish a master's degree at OU that I left unfinished when I moved out of state to take a job, and see how the relationship goes. Hopefully I'll have a much stronger application if I do that.

The alternative at this point to retaking and reapplying would be to spend a year in Oklahoma and defer Alabama with $$$$ for a year.

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Winston1984
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Winston1984 » Thu May 07, 2015 11:12 am

What makes you think the top 15% of Alabama grads have national mobility?

Traynor Brah
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Traynor Brah » Thu May 07, 2015 11:24 am

I have a LOT to learn about how legal hiring works.

Exhibit A:
I made an official visit to Alabama on Tuesday and I tend to come away from law school visits really liking the school, but I feel like people on here have been selling Alabama a little bit short. Yes, my opportunities would be greater at a T14 school, but Alabama places a higher percentage of grads in federal clerkships than some of the T14 schools do. The top 10-15% of Alabama grads can go national with job placement (yes, I know it's arrogant to assume I would make the top 15%). This might be overconfident but I feel like with my Oklahoma ties I could get median grades at Alabama and make it back to Oklahoma. I understand retaking and blanketing the T14 might be a better option than Alabama with $$$$ but my girlfriend and I are kind of debt-averse.
:(

Well, best of luck; I hope things work out for you.

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stego
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby stego » Thu May 07, 2015 12:14 pm

Winston1984 wrote:What makes you think the top 15% of Alabama grads have national mobility?


LST data: class of 2014 - 93.6% employed, 56.1% in Alabama. The rest went elsewhere.
Out of a class of 160,
8 got federal clerkships, 10 got firms sized 51-100 attorneys, 10 got firms sized 101-250 attorneys, 5 got firms sized 500+ attorneys.

Class of 2013 - 92.8% employed, 53% in Alabama.
Out of 154,
17 got federal clerkships, 7 got firms sized 51-100 attorneys, 10 got firms sized 101-250 attorneys, 3 got firms sized 500+ attorneys.

Class of 2012 - 91.9% employed, 61.6% in Alabama.
Out of 158,
16 got federal clerkships, 4 got firms sized 51-100 attorneys, 7 got firms sized 101-250 attorneys, 1 got a firm sized 500+ attorneys.

Also, one of the deans told me that the school offered good portability for roughly the top 10% or 15%. He also said "If you want true national portability, go to Columbia. Go to Yale."

Don't get me wrong, I know it's a mostly regional school. Most students stay in the Southeast, but about 50% of their class is from out of state. The students with a federal clerkship probably have the flexibility to go elsewhere afterwards. And I am not interested in a biglaw job, so I don't know that much about big law hiring, but I would imagine that the grads who got big law are either (1) not in Alabama because how much biglaw could there really be in Alabama, or (2) probably had at least had some kind of job offers from out of state. I would guess a lot of the grads who get larger firms are placing in markets like Atlanta or Nashville, but I don't know the data on this.

In August 2012 5 law firms in Alabama had 100+ attorneys: http://www.businessalabama.com/Law%20Firms.pdf

I don't know what the jobs picture is like for a median Alabama student but to my mind these numbers suggest the top 10% or 15% have national options. For federal clerkships in particular, the 2014 number is low but the handful of years before that Alabama placed a greater percentage of grads in clerkships than a few of the T14 schools did.

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stego
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby stego » Thu May 07, 2015 12:33 pm

Traynor Brah wrote:
I have a LOT to learn about how legal hiring works.

Exhibit A:
I made an official visit to Alabama on Tuesday and I tend to come away from law school visits really liking the school, but I feel like people on here have been selling Alabama a little bit short. Yes, my opportunities would be greater at a T14 school, but Alabama places a higher percentage of grads in federal clerkships than some of the T14 schools do. The top 10-15% of Alabama grads can go national with job placement (yes, I know it's arrogant to assume I would make the top 15%). This might be overconfident but I feel like with my Oklahoma ties I could get median grades at Alabama and make it back to Oklahoma. I understand retaking and blanketing the T14 might be a better option than Alabama with $$$$ but my girlfriend and I are kind of debt-averse.
:(

Well, best of luck; I hope things work out for you.


Do you disagree with my point about federal clerkships?

Look, let's see what kind of offers I get from the T14 next year, but my point is a strong regional school with little or no debt might be preferable to a T14 with 100k+ debt at graduation.

arturobelano
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby arturobelano » Thu May 07, 2015 12:42 pm

I disagree with your point on federal clerkships. I'm on my phone, so I'm not going to check the actual FC values, but there's a reason that TLS perceived FC+BL as a more meaningful metric than either FC or BL alone. They're considered "comparable outcomes" in the sense that individuals will typically have a choice between one or the other; given the relative average debt loads at 'Bama and a typical T14, it's reasonable to think that an average student with a choice between an immediately lucrative outcome and deferring a lucrative outcome will take the immediate one. As such, comparing FC alone is a non-representative indicator.

If you retake, you'll have a very good shot at $$$ at at least a few T14s with your GPA. Law school visits are mostly pointless. Don't bite.

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Winston1984
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby Winston1984 » Thu May 07, 2015 12:44 pm

stasg wrote:
Winston1984 wrote:What makes you think the top 15% of Alabama grads have national mobility?


LST data: class of 2014 - 93.6% employed, 56.1% in Alabama. The rest went elsewhere.
Out of a class of 160,
8 got federal clerkships, 10 got firms sized 51-100 attorneys, 10 got firms sized 101-250 attorneys, 5 got firms sized 500+ attorneys.

Class of 2013 - 92.8% employed, 53% in Alabama.
Out of 154,
17 got federal clerkships, 7 got firms sized 51-100 attorneys, 10 got firms sized 101-250 attorneys, 3 got firms sized 500+ attorneys.

Class of 2012 - 91.9% employed, 61.6% in Alabama.
Out of 158,
16 got federal clerkships, 4 got firms sized 51-100 attorneys, 7 got firms sized 101-250 attorneys, 1 got a firm sized 500+ attorneys.

Also, one of the deans told me that the school offered good portability for roughly the top 10% or 15%. He also said "If you want true national portability, go to Columbia. Go to Yale."

Don't get me wrong, I know it's a mostly regional school. Most students stay in the Southeast, but about 50% of their class is from out of state. The students with a federal clerkship probably have the flexibility to go elsewhere afterwards. And I am not interested in a biglaw job, so I don't know that much about big law hiring, but I would imagine that the grads who got big law are either (1) not in Alabama because how much biglaw could there really be in Alabama, or (2) probably had at least had some kind of job offers from out of state. I would guess a lot of the grads who get larger firms are placing in markets like Atlanta or Nashville, but I don't know the data on this.

In August 2012 5 law firms in Alabama had 100+ attorneys: http://www.businessalabama.com/Law%20Firms.pdf

I don't know what the jobs picture is like for a median Alabama student but to my mind these numbers suggest the top 10% or 15% have national options. For federal clerkships in particular, the 2014 number is low but the handful of years before that Alabama placed a greater percentage of grads in clerkships than a few of the T14 schools did.


Just because they aren't in Alabama doesn't mean they have national options. According to the latest employment stats, 73% of any employed grads are in AL, GA, and TN. I'm sure if you expand that to a few more SE states, you get damn close to 100%. Don't think you can be top 15% and go to SF or something.

arturobelano
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Re: Alabama, Northeastern, or Oklahoma City University?

Postby arturobelano » Thu May 07, 2015 12:55 pm

Sorry, I meant to say "your average grad at a T14." Also forgot to mention that with a few years of WE behind you Northwestern ED (which includes full tuition) isn't unrealistic.




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