Cornell v. Michigan

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BrannigansLaw
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Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BrannigansLaw » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:42 pm

I am deciding between Michigan and Cornell. I've been perusing the other threads here, and it seems like the general consensus is: NYC or Big Law hungry -- Cornell. Midwest -- Michigan. I'd still like to appeal to the wisdom of TLS, here. I've been thinking about this so long, I'm starting to go crazy.

I have no student loans from undergrad and not a lot of debt. I will be taking out loans to pay for school.

I am not sure where I want to end up yet; I am not gunning for Big Law and I'm not a huge fan of NYC, though I would gladly work there if that was my only option. I would like to end up in the Midwest, ideally Chicago, or a smaller market, like Minneapolis, Madison, etc. Still, with no clue what I want to do, I am not sure how much stock to put in the Midwestern geographic preference. At some point, getting a job (period) has to be the priority and all the geographic preference in the world shouldn't change that.

Cost of Attendance estimates:

Michigan: $25,000 tuition + $27,000 COL = $52,000 / year
Cornell: $15,000 tuition + $30,000 COL = $45,000 / year

I've taken the LSAT once, a few years ago (I know, I know. Should have gone for the retake. Older and hopefully wiser now). --- 166 / 3.9x

Appreciative of your insights, thanks --

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rpupkin
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:45 pm

BrannigansLaw wrote:I've taken the LSAT once, a few years ago (I know, I know. Should have gone for the retake. Older and hopefully wiser now). --- 166 / 3.9x

So if you're older and wiser now, why aren't you retaking?

Given the total COA and your goals, you do not have good options right now.

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Capitol_Idea
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby Capitol_Idea » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:51 pm

I don't see why re-taking is still not an option? With the choices you have there (Mich at 156K or Cornell at 135K), either is defensible but not super-ideal unless you are committed to BigLaw in a region that pays market rates (NY, DC, Chicago, LA, etc.). So retake would be best given your stellar GPA.

If you have to choose one, I think Cornell is the winner here - it's BigLaw placement numbers are as strong or better than Michigan's in recent years (below is a chart showing the school's hiring outcomes side by side). I don't think Michigan is worth 21K more than Cornell.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... d=14086468

Disclaimer: Not actually at either of these schools so I don't know if one vastly outplaces the other in Midwest placement. Both are nationally portable degrees and I imagine both do all right in Chicago. This is the only consideration in my mind that would make Michigan worth more than Cornell.

But seriously: retake.

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BrannigansLaw
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BrannigansLaw » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:54 pm

rpupkin wrote:
BrannigansLaw wrote:I've taken the LSAT once, a few years ago (I know, I know. Should have gone for the retake. Older and hopefully wiser now). --- 166 / 3.9x

So if you're older and wiser now, why aren't you retaking?

Given the total COA and your goals, you do not have good options right now.


I know. I didn't even know retaking was a thing until I discovered TLS in February (too late for that resit)... nearly killed me the first time with a FT job and I was stupid and said screw it. Didn't prep properly in the first place.

I'm married, and if I want to go to law school at all, it's got to be 2015. (Long story.) So in theory, I could do the June test, but that's coming up fast, and I probably won't improve with the amount of study time available between now and then. Plus, cost to ride a bunch of deposits into June.

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hairbear7
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby hairbear7 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:00 pm

If you absolutely will not retake and you must attend law school then, based on your geographical preferences, I would pay the extra $ for Michigan.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:14 pm

Michigan is probably better for one targeting Chicago, but NU & Chicago would be superior options.

MadwomanintheAttic
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby MadwomanintheAttic » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:40 pm

Given you state "you have no clue what you want to do" I think I'd go with Cornell. It's the cheaper option and the employment prospects are better for BigLaw if you decide that BigLaw in a larger market is something that interest you. I think Cornell would give you more opportunities than Michigan, given you're still open to exploring.

BillClinton Jr
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BillClinton Jr » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:42 pm

First off, I agree with everyone here. Withdraw ASAP, retake and get better options w/ scholly money. But, with you saying you aren't completely sure of what you wan to do, I would argue Cornell is the better option. You would have more mobility in your JD coming from Cornell than Michigan. Additionally, the job placement data that just came out leans heavily towards Cornell if you decide to do Fed Clerkship or BigLaw. Essentially, Cornell would give you the best options regardless of you not knowing what you want to do now. Down the line Cornell is the type of school that you can feel comfortable going into pretty much any legal field with; based on what I have seen data wise and students/grads I have spoken with.

Either withdraw and retake or take Cornell as the safer bet in terms of more employment opportunities. Michigan's Fed+Biglaw stats were problematic and it doesn't seem like a UofM JD is incredibly mobile, at least compared to a degree from Cornell.

Hope this helps.

BillClinton Jr
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BillClinton Jr » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:42 pm

MadwomanintheAttic wrote:Given you state "you have no clue what you want to do" I think I'd go with Cornell. It's the cheaper option and the employment prospects are better for BigLaw if you decide that BigLaw in a larger market is something that interest you. I think Cornell would give you more opportunities than Michigan, given you're still open to exploring.


+1

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BrannigansLaw
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BrannigansLaw » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:44 pm

Thanks, guys, for weighing in. I appreciate it.

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rpupkin
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby rpupkin » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:46 pm

BillClinton Jr wrote:First off, I agree with everyone here. Withdraw ASAP, retake and get better options w/ scholly money. But, with you saying you aren't completely sure of what you wan to do, I would argue Cornell is the better option. You would have more mobility in your JD coming from Cornell than Michigan.

What? A Cornell JD is probably the least mobile of any JD in the T14. Cornell is basically a regional school. Like UT, Cornell places some grads out in California, but otherwise it's a single-market school.

Cornell is a great choice if the cost is low and you're set on NYC big law. Otherwise, it's a risky choice.

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cron1834
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby cron1834 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:51 pm

Get three more LSAT questions right and reapply. The difference will be drastic for such a small input.

michlaw
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby michlaw » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:10 pm

Michigan. The retake advice is good if you think you can do better but of course with that approach everyone should keep retaking until they all get hys And then everyone will say only yale and only with mega money.

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universityof
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby universityof » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:21 pm

michlaw wrote:Michigan. The retake advice is good if you think you can do better but of course with that approach everyone should keep retaking until they all get hys And then everyone will say only yale and only with mega money.


Not everybody has a 3.9 and uncertain goals

michlaw
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby michlaw » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:36 pm

You are right but the splitter's are people to.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:50 pm

rpupkin wrote:
BillClinton Jr wrote:First off, I agree with everyone here. Withdraw ASAP, retake and get better options w/ scholly money. But, with you saying you aren't completely sure of what you wan to do, I would argue Cornell is the better option. You would have more mobility in your JD coming from Cornell than Michigan.

What? A Cornell JD is probably the least mobile of any JD in the T14. Cornell is basically a regional school. Like UT, Cornell places some grads out in California, but otherwise it's a single-market school.

Cornell is a great choice if the cost is low and you're set on NYC big law. Otherwise, it's a risky choice.


Cornell is regional like USC/UCLA except with better biglaw numbers since it targets NYC. I don't get the Cornell hype on this forum, especially if you don't want NYC bigshitlaw. Most Cornell students couldn't get into any other T-14 FWIW.

The correct answer is RETAKE. If you don't know what you want to do , I don't think defaulting into NYC biglaw is the the right answer with a shitload of loans. That's just retarded and the only people telling you to do that ARENT LAWYERS and likely not even law students.

michlaw
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby michlaw » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:05 pm

You do know that the op is just as likely to get a lower score than a higher one.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:07 pm

michlaw wrote:You do know that the op is just as likely to get a lower score than a higher one.


Then it was never meant to be, and .....OP moves onto another field (which is likely even if OP goes to law school and finishes and practices). I don't see the problem here. I think OP doesn't really know what he wants (and specifically doesn't want NYC or biglaw), so it's not a good idea to default into six figure loans for NYC bigshittyballslaw.

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mt2165
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby mt2165 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:42 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
BillClinton Jr wrote:First off, I agree with everyone here. Withdraw ASAP, retake and get better options w/ scholly money. But, with you saying you aren't completely sure of what you wan to do, I would argue Cornell is the better option. You would have more mobility in your JD coming from Cornell than Michigan.

What? A Cornell JD is probably the least mobile of any JD in the T14. Cornell is basically a regional school. Like UT, Cornell places some grads out in California, but otherwise it's a single-market school.

Cornell is a great choice if the cost is low and you're set on NYC big law. Otherwise, it's a risky choice.


Cornell is regional like USC/UCLA except with better biglaw numbers since it targets NYC. I don't get the Cornell hype on this forum, especially if you don't want NYC bigshitlaw. Most Cornell students couldn't get into any other T-14 FWIW.


WAY better biglaw numbers. I personally think thats a little reactionary. I mean, Columbia and NYU put a higher percentage of the their class in NY and no one considers them regional. That's not to say that theres not a difference in placement power but people have this weird conception that cornell kids cant get other markets and thats just not true-sure its stupid to go here over a good west coast school (Berk or Stanford, or high scholly at USC/UCLA) if you want LA but you could say that about every non-t6 non-west coast school. And looking at the stats, Cornell places just as many people in CA as NYU. Cornell is near the by far largest legal market in the country and puts a shitton of people there, that makes them regional?

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:44 pm

mt2165 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
BillClinton Jr wrote:First off, I agree with everyone here. Withdraw ASAP, retake and get better options w/ scholly money. But, with you saying you aren't completely sure of what you wan to do, I would argue Cornell is the better option. You would have more mobility in your JD coming from Cornell than Michigan.

What? A Cornell JD is probably the least mobile of any JD in the T14. Cornell is basically a regional school. Like UT, Cornell places some grads out in California, but otherwise it's a single-market school.

Cornell is a great choice if the cost is low and you're set on NYC big law. Otherwise, it's a risky choice.


Cornell is regional like USC/UCLA except with better biglaw numbers since it targets NYC. I don't get the Cornell hype on this forum, especially if you don't want NYC bigshitlaw. Most Cornell students couldn't get into any other T-14 FWIW.


WAY better biglaw numbers. I personally think thats a little reactionary. I mean, Columbia and NYU put a higher percentage of the their class in NY and no one considers them regional. That's not to say that theres not a difference in placement power but people have this weird conception that cornell kids cant get other markets and thats just not true-sure its stupid to go here over a good west coast school (Berk or Stanford, or high scholly at USC/UCLA) if you want LA but you could say that about every non-t6 non-west coast school. And looking at the stats, Cornell places just as many people in CA as NYU. Cornell is near the by far largest legal market in the country and puts a shitton of people there, that makes them regional?


# of non-NYC offices of firms that go to OCI.....

Sorry, have to agree with rpupkin - Cornell is probably the least mobile out of the T-14.

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mt2165
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby mt2165 » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:57 pm

BiglawAssociate wrote:
# of non-NYC offices of firms that go to OCI.....

Sorry, have to agree with rpupkin - Cornell is probably the least mobile out of the T-14.


Yeah I'm pretty sure a good amount of satellite offices are represented at AJF (our big interviewing event) since its in NYC and almost every major firm has an office in NYC. Our OCI is like a few weeks later and thats mostly localish firms.

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BiglawAssociate
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby BiglawAssociate » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:02 am

mt2165 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
# of non-NYC offices of firms that go to OCI.....

Sorry, have to agree with rpupkin - Cornell is probably the least mobile out of the T-14.


Yeah I'm pretty sure a good amount of satellite offices are represented at AJF (our big interviewing event) since its in NYC and almost every major firm has an office in NYC. Our OCI is like a few weeks later and thats mostly localish firms.


Comparatively speaking with the rest of the T-14 there's fewer

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mt2165
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby mt2165 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:17 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:
mt2165 wrote:
BiglawAssociate wrote:
# of non-NYC offices of firms that go to OCI.....

Sorry, have to agree with rpupkin - Cornell is probably the least mobile out of the T-14.


Yeah I'm pretty sure a good amount of satellite offices are represented at AJF (our big interviewing event) since its in NYC and almost every major firm has an office in NYC. Our OCI is like a few weeks later and thats mostly localish firms.


Comparatively speaking with the rest of the T-14 there's fewer


There are also Boston and D.C. Job fairs people go to who want those markets. I've seen this argument I just don't see the data that backs it up. More people work outside of NY from Cornell than NYU and Columbia. Obviously it's easier to get LA from Columbia, but from Duke? Northwestern? I doubt it. Besides its pretty well known here that if you target NYC wisely you have a damn good shot at getting it, and the vast majority of people come here being open to that.

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Lavitz
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby Lavitz » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:35 am

BiglawAssociate wrote:Comparatively speaking with the rest of the T-14 there's fewer

And there are less students at Cornell interested in those offices, so what's your point?

I don't have the exact numbers right now because I didn't save non-NYC firms and the data won't be back on symplicity for another 2 months, but there were plenty. But there's some serious self-selection at play. To illustrate, one firm sent one person to interview 20 people for all of their CA offices, and only like 10 people signed up, so she ended up interviewing another 10 people for the NYC office.

I actually think that Michigan might be worth the very slight extra cost here if OP ideally wants to be in Chicago or another Midwest state, especially since OP didn't mention anything about ties.

But statements like this are just perplexing:
rpupkin wrote:Cornell is basically a regional school. Like UT, Cornell places some grads out in California, but otherwise it's a single-market school.

Might as well add Columbia and NYU to that description because percentage of the class employed in NY:
Columbia: 66.6%
NYU: 63.7%
Cornell: 56.5%

Then California:
Columbia: 9.4%
Cornell: 7.8%
NYU: 7.4%

And also DC:
Cornell: 6.7%
Columbia: 6.4%
NYU: 4.8%

But somehow Cornell is the only one branded as a regional school. So how do you define single-market school?

Because Cornell being regional doesn't explain all the people I know people working in Texas, Wisconsin, Philly, Seattle, LA, SF, DC, Boston, Chicago, and Atlanta.
Last edited by Lavitz on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

desespere
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Re: Cornell v. Michigan

Postby desespere » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:37 am

OP, with a 3.9, if you retake and score a 170+, you're looking at T6 with huge money, maybe HYS. Also, you are wildly overestimating your COL. It is literally impossible to spend 30k/year in COL in Ithaca. I probably spent less than half that this year. It's possible to pay <$700/month rent if you have roommates. Though it would probably be a life-altering mistake to not retake, Cornell w/ a $45k/year scholarship is a great option. Don't go to UMich.




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