15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

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MGH1989
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15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby MGH1989 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:49 pm

Long story short, got into Campbell with a 15k scholarship (contingent on top half I believe or a 3.0) and waitlisted at Carolina. Was 99.9% percent sure I was going to Campbell and even paid the 1st of two seat deposits. However, I got in off the Carolina waitlist earlier in the week and now I don't know what to do. Obviously it may seem easy because of the rankings. Campbell has a good rep in the state, but Carolina has the best rep in the state bar none if you want to work here. Carolina will be more expensive because of the scholly, but I'm still in state so its not a staggering amount and I'm gonna be in debt regardless. Another wrinkle in all of this is that my gf is a 1L at Campbell so I basically get all her books for free, including her supps, notes, and her wisdom. Not to mention that I already know a bunch of people there so there is definitely more of a comfort factor at his point. Just wanna gauge some opinions cause I'm pretty torn.

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hairbear7
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby hairbear7 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:57 pm

We need more info. Read the stickied post and answer all those questions (gpa/LSAT, career goals etc.)

Traynor Brah
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby Traynor Brah » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:01 pm

First you need to give us all of the relevant information in the sticky at the top of this forum.

But I didn't know that there was a campbell university before today. I guess they have a "law school" too (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/campbell/2013/). Based on the employment stats, I would err against attending even if I had a full ride and modest, local goals. Tuition is 40K? LOLOL.

In-state sticker at UNC is still too much money to pay, IMO, but at least it's not a total dumpster fire of a school, and it's not an obscene amount of money.

I would say to retake to try to get money at UNC. But if you're going to be silly and risky and go to law school this fall, a million times go to UNC over this "Campbell" place.

BlackAndOrange84
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:18 pm

Am I right that a 15K scholarship to Campbell makes it cost about the same as UNC, assuming you'll get in-state tuition (Campbell tuition&fees = 38,645; UNC 22,560)? If there's no or little additional cost to go to UNC over Campbell, this is a no brainer. Why would you pay the same amount of money for poorer job prospects?

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cron1834
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby cron1834 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:17 pm

I've literally never heard of Campbell, so I'm going out on a limb and guessing it's a coinflip chance of being a lawyer and that you shouldn't go there unless it's legit free.

Sticker is too much for UNC.

None of the above.

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chuckbass
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby chuckbass » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:42 pm

MGH1989 wrote:so I basically get all her books for free, including her supps, notes, and her wisdom

This point is moot if you don't have the same professors that she did fyi.

(I agree with what everyone else said but it seems like you're pretty set on doing either so I figured I'd nitpick the smaller things)

Also with Campell's scholarship stipulation, are you prepared to dropout if you lose the scholarship? Only half of their graduates get FT/LT legal jobs in the first place (and even then I wouldn't expect that all of these are very desirable), so if you lost the scholarship and have poor grades, would you still stick it out or would you be prepared to make the prudent decision and drop out?

irish921
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby irish921 » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:48 pm

Do not, under any circumstances, go to Campbell at that price point. Campbell is fantastic at placing maybe a third of their class in shitlaw every year locally. I'm not saying UNC is badass, but it has infinitely more pedigree than Campbell in North Carolina.

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chuckbass
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby chuckbass » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:59 pm

irish921 wrote:Do not, under any circumstances, go to Campbell at that price point. Campbell is fantastic at placing maybe a third of their class in shitlaw every year locally. I'm not saying UNC is badass, but it has infinitely more pedigree than Campbell in North Carolina.

Yeah plus if an above poster is correct that money-wise it would be a wash between the two, there is no reason to choose the worse option (even with the gf in mind).

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MarkfromWI
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby MarkfromWI » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:45 pm

Traynor Brah wrote:I would say to retake to try to get money at UNC. But if you're going to be silly and risky and go to law school this fall, a million times go to UNC over this "Campbell" place.

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SquedTheScholar
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby SquedTheScholar » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:14 am

What are your goals?

The most likely outcome from UNC are summers spent RAing for a professor, volunteering for about 6 months after graduation, and then a full time job that does not require a JD and pays very little.

There are special snowflakes that get great jobs from UNC - maybe 10% of the class. Of course, you only have a 10% chance of being one of those people.


As for Campbell, the absolute best outcome you could get from there would be a job with a small local lawyer where you'll make very very little. There are many students at Campbell that would kill for even that small opportunity.

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pancakes3
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby pancakes3 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:36 am

Is Raleigh not in North Carolina anymore?

Traynor Brah
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby Traynor Brah » Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:55 am

SquedTheScholar wrote:The most likely outcome from UNC are summers spent RAing for a professor, volunteering for about 6 months after graduation, and then a full time job that does not require a JD and pays very little.

There are special snowflakes that get great jobs from UNC - maybe 10% of the class. Of course, you only have a 10% chance of being one of those people.

Well this isn't true. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/unc/2013/. 70 percent of the class has jobs that are JD required. Seems like that's the "most likely" outcome. But the majority of these 70% of course are not making more than 60K which is why we say this is way too much debt to take out for UNC, OP.

But yeah OP would be a complete moron to seriously contemplate "Campbell" when it's the same price as UNC.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:02 pm

yeah this isn't close. UNC by a mile.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby JohannDeMann » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:13 pm

All the UNC hate is pretty stupid. IT's one of the few law schools that does things relatively right - keeps tuition low and gives people an excellent opportunity to become a lawyer/service the debt in the state. It's the most renowned law school in the state (most Duke students leave NC) and the NC legal market is fine. The salaries aren't that high for entry level attorneys because its a lower cost of living area. But I mean as we discussed in other threads, 60-70k in NC is 120-140k in NYC. 60-70k for an entry level position is easily enough to service the debt load of UNC (<100k). The Charlotte banking market should have plenty of JD advantage jobs that pay well too.

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BasilHallward
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby BasilHallward » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:18 pm

No-brainer. UNC for an is-stater is decent. This is not even a close decision. Don't fall for that garbage scholarship at Campbell. The idea that you are considering paying more for Campbell than UNC is abominable. You do understand that losing that scholarship is a very real possibility, right?

Retake and go to UNC.

BlackAndOrange84
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:48 pm

SquedTheScholar wrote:What are your goals?

The most likely outcome from UNC are summers spent RAing for a professor, volunteering for about 6 months after graduation, and then a full time job that does not require a JD and pays very little.

There are special snowflakes that get great jobs from UNC - maybe 10% of the class. Of course, you only have a 10% chance of being one of those people.


As for Campbell, the absolute best outcome you could get from there would be a job with a small local lawyer where you'll make very very little. There are many students at Campbell that would kill for even that small opportunity.


This is the kind of silly ignorance that gives TLS a bad name. Go look at LST. Almost 25% at UNC get federal clerkships or firms >100 attorneys. There are also a good number who end up doing fine at smaller shops in the state. Even if we limit your claim to "the most likely outcome," you're still off base. Just under 70% of each class ends up in long-term, bar-passage required jobs.

Even with respect to Campbell you have no idea what you're talking about. Top Campbell students regularly end up at very good NC firms—"the absolute best outcome" is not a job with a small local lawyer. Is the number small? Yes, of course. Is it something to count on? No, of course not. But that doesn't excuse mouthing off without any basis in fact for doing so.

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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby Traynor Brah » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:15 pm

BlackAndOrange84 wrote:Even with respect to Campbell you have no idea what you're talking about. Top Campbell students regularly end up at very good NC firms—"the absolute best outcome" is not a job with a small local lawyer. Is the number small? Yes, of course. Is it something to count on? No, of course not. But that doesn't excuse mouthing off without any basis in fact for doing so.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/campbell/2013/

Cool story bruh. It's still a fucking terrible idea to attend for essentially anyone, ever.

BlackAndOrange84
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:21 pm

Traynor Brah wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:Even with respect to Campbell you have no idea what you're talking about. Top Campbell students regularly end up at very good NC firms—"the absolute best outcome" is not a job with a small local lawyer. Is the number small? Yes, of course. Is it something to count on? No, of course not. But that doesn't excuse mouthing off without any basis in fact for doing so.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/campbell/2013/

Cool story bruh. It's still a fucking terrible idea to attend for essentially anyone, ever.


I'm not sure I'd be so categorical, but I largely agree. But making that point doesn't require making shit up or exaggerating.

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SquedTheScholar
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby SquedTheScholar » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:31 pm

BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
SquedTheScholar wrote:What are your goals?

The most likely outcome from UNC are summers spent RAing for a professor, volunteering for about 6 months after graduation, and then a full time job that does not require a JD and pays very little.

There are special snowflakes that get great jobs from UNC - maybe 10% of the class. Of course, you only have a 10% chance of being one of those people.


As for Campbell, the absolute best outcome you could get from there would be a job with a small local lawyer where you'll make very very little. There are many students at Campbell that would kill for even that small opportunity.


This is the kind of silly ignorance that gives TLS a bad name. Go look at LST. Almost 25% at UNC get federal clerkships or firms >100 attorneys. There are also a good number who end up doing fine at smaller shops in the state. Even if we limit your claim to "the most likely outcome," you're still off base. Just under 70% of each class ends up in long-term, bar-passage required jobs.

Even with respect to Campbell you have no idea what you're talking about. Top Campbell students regularly end up at very good NC firms—"the absolute best outcome" is not a job with a small local lawyer. Is the number small? Yes, of course. Is it something to count on? No, of course not. But that doesn't excuse mouthing off without any basis in fact for doing so.



So 25% get a clerkship OR a firm over 100 attorneys. Thats terrible. Over 100 attorneys means the firm is good? Your definition of a "good" firm is very different than mine. My 10% number may have been low but not really. I said 10% get a "great job". Thats probably overstating the reality actually.
Last edited by SquedTheScholar on Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pattonthicke
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby pattonthicke » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:31 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:All the UNC hate is pretty stupid. IT's one of the few law schools that does things relatively right - keeps tuition low and gives people an excellent opportunity to become a lawyer/service the debt in the state. It's the most renowned law school in the state (most Duke students leave NC) and the NC legal market is fine.


yeah all the UNC hate is pretty stupid but lets not get carried away. what is it like 22-25k per year sticker price in-state? Add in annual increases (their in-state tution was literally like 15k per year not too long ago), interest, bar loans and other stuff OP will end up with roughly 115k in debt, with a job that pays around 45-55k. UNC instate sticker is not defensible IMO. 25k per year for a law school that will more than likely get a job paying 44-55k(and yes pay no attention to the other idiot talking about not getting a job--you will probably get one just a low-paying one compared to your debt level) is NOT the definition of keeping tuition low. If this is the standard for "responsible law school" or "one that does things right" then holy shit.

OP here is my advice. Turn down both offers. Their both shit. Retake and attend UNC with a higher scholly that will keep debt at 75K nine months after graduation (ie., after you have paid for and taken the bar and can be expected to start work).

OP, you likely wont take my advice. You are dead set on attending law school. I was you 3-4 years ago. I didnt listen and neither will you. So since i know you will reject the above advice here his plan B. Dont go to campbell under any circumstances. Go to unc sticker--this will put you at give or take 115k in debt when you start working to pay it off. Dont dream of buying a house when you and your wife (marry the girl at campbell for shits and giggles) have a collective 220k plus in debt. She's on the NC doc review circuit (is there such a thing?) and you are working NC dui defense shit law for 37K a year.

Of course there is always the possiblity you get big law...it does happen. Maybe gun hard for public defense and get that Fedgov loan forgiveness. All i know is you better fucking love being a lawyer becuase going to either school at this price is financial lunacy, but if its worth it for you and you are happy fuck it, pay for that law dean's third home.

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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:40 pm

SquedTheScholar wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
SquedTheScholar wrote:What are your goals?

The most likely outcome from UNC are summers spent RAing for a professor, volunteering for about 6 months after graduation, and then a full time job that does not require a JD and pays very little.

There are special snowflakes that get great jobs from UNC - maybe 10% of the class. Of course, you only have a 10% chance of being one of those people.


As for Campbell, the absolute best outcome you could get from there would be a job with a small local lawyer where you'll make very very little. There are many students at Campbell that would kill for even that small opportunity.


This is the kind of silly ignorance that gives TLS a bad name. Go look at LST. Almost 25% at UNC get federal clerkships or firms >100 attorneys. There are also a good number who end up doing fine at smaller shops in the state. Even if we limit your claim to "the most likely outcome," you're still off base. Just under 70% of each class ends up in long-term, bar-passage required jobs.

Even with respect to Campbell you have no idea what you're talking about. Top Campbell students regularly end up at very good NC firms—"the absolute best outcome" is not a job with a small local lawyer. Is the number small? Yes, of course. Is it something to count on? No, of course not. But that doesn't excuse mouthing off without any basis in fact for doing so.



So 25% get a clerkship OR a firm over 100 attorneys. Thats terrible. Over 100 attorneys means the firm is good? Your definition of a "good" firm is very different than mine. My 10% number may have been low but not really. I said 10% get a "great job". Thats probably overstating the reality actually.


Look, unless a "very good outcome" is V20 or a COA clerkship, I'm not sure what isn't very good about getting a job that pays between 120k–160k, particularly if your debt load is around 100k or lower. In that sense, the regional and NC-centric firms that so many folks go to work for are excellent outcomes. If your definition of "very good job" means anything more than a job that permits servicing debt and practicing law in NC, I'm not sure how it's relevant to this discussion at all. It's not like OP said he wanted biglaw/COA/academia or bust.

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pattonthicke
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby pattonthicke » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:54 pm

BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
SquedTheScholar wrote:
BlackAndOrange84 wrote:
SquedTheScholar wrote:What are your goals?

The most likely outcome from UNC are summers spent RAing for a professor, volunteering for about 6 months after graduation, and then a full time job that does not require a JD and pays very little.

There are special snowflakes that get great jobs from UNC - maybe 10% of the class. Of course, you only have a 10% chance of being one of those people.


As for Campbell, the absolute best outcome you could get from there would be a job with a small local lawyer where you'll make very very little. There are many students at Campbell that would kill for even that small opportunity.


This is the kind of silly ignorance that gives TLS a bad name. Go look at LST. Almost 25% at UNC get federal clerkships or firms >100 attorneys. There are also a good number who end up doing fine at smaller shops in the state. Even if we limit your claim to "the most likely outcome," you're still off base. Just under 70% of each class ends up in long-term, bar-passage required jobs.

Even with respect to Campbell you have no idea what you're talking about. Top Campbell students regularly end up at very good NC firms—"the absolute best outcome" is not a job with a small local lawyer. Is the number small? Yes, of course. Is it something to count on? No, of course not. But that doesn't excuse mouthing off without any basis in fact for doing so.



So 25% get a clerkship OR a firm over 100 attorneys. Thats terrible. Over 100 attorneys means the firm is good? Your definition of a "good" firm is very different than mine. My 10% number may have been low but not really. I said 10% get a "great job". Thats probably overstating the reality actually.


Look, unless a "very good outcome" is V20 or a COA clerkship, I'm not sure what isn't very good about getting a job that pays between 120k–160k, particularly if your debt load is around 100k or lower. In that sense, the regional and NC-centric firms that so many folks go to work for are excellent outcomes. If your definition of "very good job" means anything more than a job that permits servicing debt and practicing law in NC, I'm not sure how it's relevant to this discussion at all. It's not like OP said he wanted biglaw/COA/academia or bust.


Holy Shit!!! "So many go work for" What year did you graduate from UNC? 2005? About 10-20% of UNC grads will get a job paying 120k-160k, if that. Most likely outcome is making 45k. This guy is making shit up. OP, I am a practicing attorney with a lot of knowledge about both of these schools and NC legal market in general. PM for any specific advice, but people in this thread are either saying UNC completely sucks (not true, just not worth the money) or youll it will be bottles and models when you make 120K in Raleigh with low COL. Again, real simple, go to UNC, make 45-50k, unless really good grades. Go to Campbell, actually just dont go there under any circumstance.

BlackAndOrange84
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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby BlackAndOrange84 » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:11 pm

Holy Shit!!! "So many go work for" What year did you graduate from UNC? 2005? About 10-20% of UNC grads will get a job paying 120k-160k, if that. Most likely outcome is making 45k. This guy is making shit up. OP, I am a practicing attorney with a lot of knowledge about both of these schools and NC legal market in general. PM for any specific advice, but people in this thread are either saying UNC completely sucks (not true, just not worth the money) or youll it will be bottles and models when you make 120K in Raleigh with low COL. Again, real simple, go to UNC, make 45-50k, unless really good grades. Go to Campbell, actually just dont go there under any circumstance.


Look, I'm not trying to exaggerate our placement stats, but "many" doesn't mean "most." Just under 25% get a firm of over 100 attorneys or a federal clerkship. Presuming that the majority of those with federal clerkships aren't hurting, you've got between 50 and 60 students a year getting a very good job, and I don't believe that there are no other good jobs out there, particularly given that there are very decent shops in-state that are in the 26–50 or 50–100 attorney sets and that there's always a few students who end up at the NCSC, which is surely not a bad outcome either.

Now, does the average median or below median bro end up making 45–50k? Sure—it sounds like you know that end of things better than I do.

Is your advice correct? Yes, OP shouldn't go to Campbell, and probably shouldn't attend UNC at sticker either.

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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby FlamingDragon » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:34 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:All the UNC hate is pretty stupid. IT's one of the few law schools that does things relatively right - keeps tuition low and gives people an excellent opportunity to become a lawyer/service the debt in the state. It's the most renowned law school in the state (most Duke students leave NC) and the NC legal market is fine. The salaries aren't that high for entry level attorneys because its a lower cost of living area. But I mean as we discussed in other threads, 60-70k in NC is 120-140k in NYC. 60-70k for an entry level position is easily enough to service the debt load of UNC (<100k). The Charlotte banking market should have plenty of JD advantage jobs that pay well too.


Wait UNC more prestigious than Duke in state or anywhere? You should be banned from TLS for all of eternity for saying some dumb shit like that.

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Re: 15k Campbell Law vs UNC sticker

Postby Traynor Brah » Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:02 pm

FlamingDragon wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:All the UNC hate is pretty stupid. IT's one of the few law schools that does things relatively right - keeps tuition low and gives people an excellent opportunity to become a lawyer/service the debt in the state. It's the most renowned law school in the state (most Duke students leave NC) and the NC legal market is fine. The salaries aren't that high for entry level attorneys because its a lower cost of living area. But I mean as we discussed in other threads, 60-70k in NC is 120-140k in NYC. 60-70k for an entry level position is easily enough to service the debt load of UNC (<100k). The Charlotte banking market should have plenty of JD advantage jobs that pay well too.


Wait UNC more prestigious than Duke in state or anywhere? You should be banned from TLS for all of eternity for saying some dumb shit like that.

He didn't say prestigious dipshit he said renowned. What he's referring to is the case in several regions w/r/t non-biglaw private practice.




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