Darrow vs. Yale Forum

[AreJay711]

OP, how much time do you have again? I think you should really do some soul searching about what you really want here. Doubtful there is sufficient time to really clarify things, but worty considering.

Thank you (and everyone) for your help. I have until end of April. You're right - I need to figure out what doors are closed to me from Michigan, and whether these are significant enough to warrant $180k in debt.

So, it seems like there are two major differences. Yale gives me the flexibility of career path because it's Yale, however limits my career path because of debt. Whereas Michigan gives me the flexibility of career path because there's no financial burden, but Michigan also limits my career path because it doesn't place as well into those areas I expressed interest in. I want to keep my options open for my career (whether that's in human rights, civil rights, immigration, or anything for that matter). I concede that my goals are 'all over the place,' but I don't think that's unreasonable considering I'm an 0L. I have a few interests that I know I want to pursue, but of those, I'm not really sure which direction to go.

Also just wanted to clarify although I'd be okay doing big law for a few years, I'd really rather not if I had the option.

I went to Michigan. I don't think the job numbers accurately reflect the school's placement power (I think it's more about the people who choose Michigan over it's peers), but I think you should do Yale. Debt only costs a maximum of 10% of your income over the poverty line plus some potential tax bomb sometime in the future. That's not trivial, but it's probably worth it since you don't know what you want.

The more wishy washy you are, the more Yale's reputation will help you. For example, you can absolutely do human rights shit from Michigan, but you're going to need to need to network, get good grades, and be obviously dedicated. It's not going to be something that you can causally test along with other options and make happen. At Yale, you could probably work for a civil rights firm 1L, take a few classes in human rights stuff 2L, do the SA thing 2L summer, and then shoot out some apps to human rights organizations as a 3L and have as good a shot at landing the job as the person from Michigan.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: Tell any public interest organization that you're a graduate from the University of Michigan law school & would like to work for them for free or for minimum wage for one year to prove yourself. (Because you have no student loan debt.) That should open doors that you fear may be closed to you since you don't have a Yale law degree.

Also, I find it interesting that posters comment on how stress free the first year is at Yale due to the grading system, but fail to recognize the incredible stress in the subsequent decade with an enormous amount of student debt hanging over your head.

[RunnerRunner]

OP, how much time do you have again? I think you should really do some soul searching about what you really want here. Doubtful there is sufficient time to really clarify things, but worty considering.

Thank you (and everyone) for your help. I have until end of April. You're right - I need to figure out what doors are closed to me from Michigan, and whether these are significant enough to warrant $180k in debt.

So, it seems like there are two major differences. Yale gives me the flexibility of career path because it's Yale, however limits my career path because of debt. Whereas Michigan gives me the flexibility of career path because there's no financial burden, but Michigan also limits my career path because it doesn't place as well into those areas I expressed interest in. I want to keep my options open for my career (whether that's in human rights, civil rights, immigration, or anything for that matter). I concede that my goals are 'all over the place,' but I don't think that's unreasonable considering I'm an 0L. I have a few interests that I know I want to pursue, but of those, I'm not really sure which direction to go.

Also just wanted to clarify although I'd be okay doing big law for a few years, I'd really rather not if I had the option.

The bolded is only true if you let it be though. Going to Yale and having debt doesn't limit your career in any way, it really just limits how much money you will be saving from that career initially. You can do whatever you want: either you'll be rich enough to cover your costs or COAP will cover them for you. Great options either way OP, congrats and good luck figuring all this out!

[AreJay711]

Also, I find it interesting that posters comment on how stress free the first year is at Yale due to the grading system, but fail to recognize the incredible stress in the subsequent decade with an enormous amount of student debt hanging over your head.

Eh, it's not the stressful. I just refuse to look at my account totals and pretend it's not that bad.

[asdlfjsafn]

.

[CanadianWolf]

One point that is often overlooked on TLS is that what law school one graduated is important for only a few years in the real world; after that you need to show real world accomplishments.

[UnicornHunter]

OP, how much time do you have again? I think you should really do some soul searching about what you really want here. Doubtful there is sufficient time to really clarify things, but worty considering.

Thank you (and everyone) for your help. I have until end of April. You're right - I need to figure out what doors are closed to me from Michigan, and whether these are significant enough to warrant $180k in debt.

So, it seems like there are two major differences. Yale gives me the flexibility of career path because it's Yale, however limits my career path because of debt. Whereas Michigan gives me the flexibility of career path because there's no financial burden, but Michigan also limits my career path because it doesn't place as well into those areas I expressed interest in. I want to keep my options open for my career (whether that's in human rights, civil rights, immigration, or anything for that matter). I concede that my goals are 'all over the place,' but I don't think that's unreasonable considering I'm an 0L. I have a few interests that I know I want to pursue, but of those, I'm not really sure which direction to go.

Also just wanted to clarify although I'd be okay doing big law for a few years, I'd really rather not if I had the option.

I went to Michigan. I don't think the job numbers accurately reflect the school's placement power (I think it's more about the people who choose Michigan over it's peers), but I think you should do Yale. Debt only costs a maximum of 10% of your income over the poverty line plus some potential tax bomb sometime in the future. That's not trivial, but it's probably worth it since you don't know what you want.

The more wishy washy you are, the more Yale's reputation will help you. For example, you can absolutely do human rights shit from Michigan, but you're going to need to need to network, get good grades, and be obviously dedicated. It's not going to be something that you can causally test along with other options and make happen. At Yale, you could probably work for a civil rights firm 1L, take a few classes in human rights stuff 2L, do the SA thing 2L summer, and then shoot out some apps to human rights organizations as a 3L and have as good a shot at landing the job as the person from Michigan.

I might be way off base, but I think you're just wrong about this. Even from Yale, you're not going to be able to "take a few classes in human rights stuff 2L...shoot out some apps" and land a unicorn job in international human rights or whatever. Yale is loaded with incredibly successful, driven people with experience in these areas and who know exactly what they want to do. They get impressive, hard to get jobs because they are impressive people with unique experiences, not because they studied the law at Yale.

If there's something OP is really passionate about and they're willing to forgo other (more lucrative) opportunities to get, then by all means- Yale makes sense. But I think it's incredibly misleading to suggest someone's going to be able to waltz into any legal job they want just because they have Yale on their resume.

[AreJay711]

I might be way off base, but I think you're just wrong about this. Even from Yale, you're not going to be able to "take a few classes in human rights stuff 2L...shoot out some apps" and land a unicorn job in international human rights or whatever. Yale is loaded with incredibly successful, driven people with experience in these areas and who know exactly what they want to do. They get impressive, hard to get jobs because they are impressive people with unique experiences, not because they studied the law at Yale.

You might be right about the bold, but you are wrong about the underline.

[gnomgnomuch]

That's a tough question.

If you had some clear goals that warranted Yale - feeder judge/SCOTUS clerkship, UN, Hague, etc - then it would make some sense to do it. However, you seem unsure of what you want.

Michigan would essentially be free, as a Darrow scholar, i'm assuming you'll have no problems landing big-law. It would suck like hell if you went to Yale, took on 200k of debt, and ended up doing essentially the same job you'd have done if you had went to Michigan, except you'd have Michigan for free.

I'd see if you could negotiate with the other schools. Messaging CCN and telling them that you'd love to attend, but you can't afford to do so (which is when you drop Y and the Darrow) might incline them to raise their scholarships a bit. If not, you haven't lost anything. Also, doesn't B have a scholarship match program? Did you ask them about it?

In this case, I'd choose Umich.

[BigZuck]

What kind of career flexibility is Yale granting to some washy-washy rando?

One day the OP wakes up: "Oh hey, ya know what, I think I want to teach International Criminal Tax Procedure Theory when I graduate."

(Pick up phone)

(Is on tenure track the next day)

Come on guys

If the OP doesn't end up an associate at some rando V31 firm 4 years from now I'll eat my hat

You think he's gonna marry George Clooney and prosecute war criminals? Based on that OP?

G
E
T

R
E
A
L

(I hope this argument goes for like 4 more pages)

[smaug]

i was thinking that gubmint was more likely than academia but whatever

[pancakes3]

It kinda makes you shrug when the OP in: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 2&t=247004 has a 3.88 176 and got 0 from Boalt and WL at Stanford while the OP here is weighing Yale and Darrow.

[UnicornHunter]

OP, if you do go to Yale don't let your parents pay tuition. I mean, presumably you'll be gunning for COAP, right? Seems like you'd be burning up money for no reason.

[cron1834]

What kind of career flexibility is Yale granting to some washy-washy rando?

One day the OP wakes up: "Oh hey, ya know what, I think I want to teach International Criminal Tax Procedure Theory when I graduate."

(Pick up phone)

(Is on tenure track the next day)

Come on guys

If the OP doesn't end up an associate at some rando V31 firm 4 years from now I'll eat my hat

You think he's gonna marry George Clooney and prosecute war criminals? Based on that OP?

G
E
T

R
E
A
L

(I hope this argument goes for like 4 more pages)

Yup.

[BigZuck]

i was thinking that gubmint was more likely than academia but whatever

I

W
I
L
L

E
A
T

M
Y

H
A
T

Yeah, I dunno. I get that Yale is a better school and in general I'd lean towards the better school absent any specific career goals. But 150K+ is a big difference and Michigan isn't exactly a slouch. The other doors Yale opens up dont seem to be the kind people can't just walk right into if they feel like it, seems like it's stuff you have to set your sights on relatively early on (except maybe a clerkship). Or maybe government like you said, I really don't know much about government hiring.

I also could be totally misreading the OP or underrating Yale here

[rpupkin]

I also could be totally misreading the OP or underrating Yale here

You also could be underrating the difficulty of digesting an entire hat.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Try to get CCN to up their offers to 120k ish and get parents to cover the rest

[BiglawAssociate]

Free law school where poster might not get the job they want. Yale will guaranteed allow poster to pay that debt off with the legal professions golden ticket. Lemme know next time MBB or i-banks go to Michigan and recruit. Or any other profession where people appreciate the name of Yale versus a state school. If poster doesn't know they want to do biglaw, Yale is the only choice.

michigan is a finance feeder dude

Seriously. Who the fuck is Actus Reus? LOL at law school idiots commenting on finance or MBB when they don't know shit.........IF YOU DONT KNOW FINANCE OR MBB STFU. As for MBB they recruit at like the top 30 to 35 undergrads in the country (and fwiw at least all of the top 14 law schools). It's not the getting recruited part that's hard - it's the "passing the case studies" and 4-5 interview process part that's hard.

That said, this thread is a tough one. Yale is Yale, but every Yale law grad that I personally know (even a few years out of school) are either working in biglaw or now for some shit law firm in the middle of nowhere. Unfortunately law isn't like finance. FINANCE actually has the potential to make HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY and there are real career differences in finance (some make lower six figures; others make BILLIONS). Most people in law, even if you go to Yale (and especially if you do litigation) just end up doing the same shit (working for some stupid firm). Even Yalies have to lateral to SHITLAW firms eventually. And funnily enough every Yalie law grad that i knew personally from college/high school is now still in biglaw or at a shitlaw firm. They ended up in the same place like everyone else, so LOL at striving.

Yale law grads are for most the part very very middle class losers IMO for all that striving. What the fuck is the point of striving when you don't even make that much money or do anything interesting? JUST PROLE LOSERS.

[asdlfjsafn]

.

[CanadianWolf]

Demonstrated interest is important for some practice areas, especially in the "do-gooder" category. This is often accomplished during law school by working in related clinics, internships/externships & authoring published articles.

The notion that a law degree from Yale "allows one to walk on water" & obtain positions otherwise unattainable for graduates of all other law schools is pure silliness echoed by inexperienced persons overly influenced by US News rankings & anecdotal "evidence".

Certainly, a Yale law degree opens doors within a few years of graduation because it is consistently ranked as the nation's top law school & is relatively small when compared to Harvard & Columbia. Additionally, due to the "hand-picked" nature of its classes, YLS students do often get mentoring that can yield strong recommendations from the mentor. But those doors are not opened exclusively for Yale law grads & are not closed to graduates of other law schools--certainly not closed to graduates of the other T-14 law schools.

[eagerbeaver2015]

go to yale and hit the ground running! they don't offer spots to many people even with numbers like yours-- they must've seen something special in you! go to yale and kick some bootay-- what you put in is what you will get out!

[CanadianWolf]

And since OP will be putting in a lot of borrowed funds, he'll get out with a lot of debt.

[BiglawAssociate]

2. A lot of current and admitted students I met at ASW who were interested in non-big law work (like public interest or human rights or whatever), said their plan was to work in big-law for a few years, and then transition into the fields they're really passionate about. Assuming two associates are coming from the same firm and each have the same amount of experience, does Yale provide more transition opportunities than Michigan to fields like human rights, civil rights, or immigration? Is this plan delusional? What am I missing?

My S/O is a supervising attorney at a middle prestige NYC non profit so I can only speak to this type of non profit in particular. They mainly look at your background in PI (so how many internships you've done, etc.) and your dedication/commitment to PI. They also look at your language skills (are you bilingual in Spanish/Chinese). If you applied with just biglaw on your resume you likely wouldn't even land an interview, even with Yale on your resume.

[RunnerRunner]

Once again, thanks for your insight. I have two more questions, but they're related so I hope it's okay.

1. I thought it was the norm that 0L's weren't sure what they wanted to practice specifically. But it seems like in order for me to be successful in some of the interests that I mentioned, I'll have to gun for them very early on in law school, even from Yale. It's a bit concerning. So if I want to be pursue a career that's not big law, I should just choose one of the three areas and focus specifically on it (rather than trying to have more breadth and learn about all the subjects before making a decision). Even if of the three, I'm not sure which one I want to pursue, I should just choose one and stick with it. Is this correct?

2. A lot of current and admitted students I met at ASW who were interested in non-big law work (like public interest or human rights or whatever), said their plan was to work in big-law for a few years, and then transition into the fields they're really passionate about. Assuming two associates are coming from the same firm and each have the same amount of experience, does Yale provide more transition opportunities than Michigan to fields like human rights, civil rights, or immigration? Is this plan delusional? What am I missing?

1. I don't think it is abnormal for 1L's in general to not know what they want to do, but it is also not abnormal for law grads to be very unhappy in the job they get (see the connection there?). The reason everyone is talking about how you'll have to gun early is because the interests you mentioned (civil rights, human rights, etc) are extremely difficult fields to enter with very few positions available, which means that they are likely going to the people who have tailored their law school experience to the make themselves attractive in that field.

2. In your scenario, where there are two associates coming from the same firm who have identical experience, I suppose the Yale graduate has a better shot than the Michigan graduate, but if this is your plan the boost is likely not worth the money. To me the boost Yale will give you would be in getting an initial job right out of law school that poises you for a career in public interest. For instance, it would make you more likely to get a Skadden Fellowship, or a prestigious clerkship, etc, which can help you then transition into more permanent positions in the fields you want.

OP what this thread really comes down to is that you should put some serious thought and research into what you want to do. It's not really a Yale v Michigan question, it is a "what do you want to do" question. If you get the answer to that, you'll get the answer as to where you should go.

[asdlfjsafn]

.