Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
rks92
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:03 am

Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby rks92 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:12 am

Hi guys,

Update: Thank you for the quick and candid responses!

Would really appreciate input and feedback regarding University of Minnesota and William & Mary. I've got scholarships for both and the rest of the money covered (lets assume money isn't part of the decision making).

- Currently considering University of Minnesota and William & Mary; am waitlisted at BU, Emory, Washington U, U of Washington. Still waiting to hear back from Fordham and Vanderbilt .

- UMN COA taking away the 80K scholarship = 123,00
- W&M COA taking away the 24K scholarship = 180,000

(these are not that surprising to me considering Im an international student)

- My dad will be paying for my schooling (I am incredibly lucky). I'd like to consider the decision without the financing aspect of it as well.

- I'm from Hong Kong, studied that the University of Michigan and I currently work in NYC in an investment start up. I don't have ties, but I'd like to work in a bit city/east coast in general.

- I haven't nailed down what kind of law I want to get into, but I think likely corporate.

- LSAT 165, GPA 3.6.

- Took the LSAT twice.

Given my (lack of) citizenship, there are visa issues for me coming out of this, and so job prospects are key because I can;t even be in the running for the visa lottery (H1B) without a job.

Hope this is enough information and thanks in advance!
Last edited by rks92 on Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

BigZuck
Posts: 10843
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:18 am

You have to answer these questions before people can really help you here:
In order to receive the best feedback in this forum, please provide all of the following:

-The schools you are considering
-The total Cost of Attendance (COA) of each. COA = cost of tuition + fees + books + cost of living (COL) + accumulated interest - scholarships.
-How you will be financing your COA, i.e. loans, family, or savings
-Where you are from and where you want to work, and other places where you have significant ties (if any)
-Your general career goals
-Your LSAT/GPA numbers
-How many times you have taken the LSAT

Neither of these are good options for the markets you mentioned, these schools don't reliably place into those areas.

Go ahead and answer all those questions and then people can give you advice

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:19 am

If you had to select one of these two schools for a job on the east coast, it should be Wm. & Mary. If you are targeting DC/NYC/Boston, then you should attend a T-14 law school.

To which law schools have you been offered admission ?

User avatar
cron1834
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby cron1834 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:04 am

What kind of work do you want and where do you want to do it? "Neither" is probably the answer here.

User avatar
chuckbass
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:29 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby chuckbass » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:09 am

cron1834 wrote:What kind of work do you want and where do you want to do it? "Neither" is probably the answer here.

Neither is definitely the answer here :|

User avatar
cron1834
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby cron1834 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:13 am

:cry:

User avatar
Winston1984
Posts: 1789
Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby Winston1984 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:09 am

Surprised you were waitlisted at those schools. But yeah. You should retake the LSAT or change your goals.

User avatar
OhBoyOhBortles
Posts: 2254
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:01 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby OhBoyOhBortles » Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:11 am

Definitely going to need to retake here.

User avatar
chuckbass
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:29 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby chuckbass » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:26 pm

If you want to do law school, you need to retake and go to a school that will get you NYC biglaw b/c that is your best shot at getting a visa. If you pick either of the two schools that you're considering, you're shooting yourself in both feet and in three years you'll be in a worse position than you are in now (which sounds pretty great fwiw).

User avatar
pancakes3
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:49 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:49 pm

She can't sit out with her visa issue, or at least it is not a run-of-the-mill-sit-out advice. OP should have come in earlier bc that list of applied-to schools is just a mess. WM may ostensibly be the lesser of two evils here but that is a terrible amount of debt.

arewevoting
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:00 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby arewevoting » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:50 pm

maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)

i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).

Also surprised about the BU waitlist.

Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.

As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).

Traynor Brah
Posts: 718
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:23 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby Traynor Brah » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:52 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:
cron1834 wrote:What kind of work do you want and where do you want to do it? "Neither" is probably the answer here.

Neither is definitely the answer here :|

arewevoting
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:00 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby arewevoting » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:53 pm

pancakes3 wrote:She can't sit out with her visa issue, or at least it is not a run-of-the-mill-sit-out advice. OP should have come in earlier bc that list of applied-to schools is just a mess. WM may ostensibly be the lesser of two evils here but that is a terrible amount of debt.


if zero debt is terrible debt, then my future is apocalyptic

BigZuck
Posts: 10843
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:54 pm

arewevoting wrote:maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)

i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).

Also surprised about the BU waitlist.

Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.

As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).


What other options do you have in mind?

What do you mean by a Minnesota degree being "transferable" and what is your basis for that statement?

arewevoting
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:00 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby arewevoting » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:57 pm

BigZuck wrote:
arewevoting wrote:maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)

i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).

Also surprised about the BU waitlist.

Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.

As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).


What other options do you have in mind?

What do you mean by a Minnesota degree being "transferable" and what is your basis for that statement?


i mean other legal jobs that are not NYC-biglaw jobs...

my basis for the other statement is that UM is a top twenty law school

User avatar
pancakes3
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2014 2:49 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby pancakes3 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:02 pm

I'm assuming OP is on OPT right now - basically a 1 year grace period post UG to find sponsorship so retake is out of the question, unless he/she retakes in China. Then post-grad, to find sponsorship, the sponsor job basically has to prove that OP brings a skill that a native grad doesn't bring to the table (probably Chinese skillz and not sure that Cantonese is as strong a sell as Mandarin) and is irreplaceable in order to get a work visa -> green card -> citizenship. The chances of that being plausible anywhere outside of biglaw are slim/none. On top of that, it's a lottery. So, WM but it's a chance on a chance.

*debt was the wrong word. $180k is still a lot of RMB.

rks92
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:03 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby rks92 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:08 pm

Thanks for the responses! Lots to think about.

I understand what a lot of you are saying, the thing is that if I don't win the lottery this time around (my company applied for it -- will find out in July/Aug) I have to have a plan for staying here. At the same time, if both schools and any others I'm waitlisted on do not give me a good change at employment and are effectively a waste of time I definitely need to consider that too.

Either way it'll be debt free for me, and I'd feel awful if my dad spent all this money and I went to a school that didn't have great prospects for me.

And yes, I'm on OPT with the H1B applied for!

arewevoting
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:00 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby arewevoting » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:10 pm

pancakes3 wrote:I'm assuming OP is on OPT right now - basically a 1 year grace period post UG to find sponsorship so retake is out of the question, unless he/she retakes in China. Then post-grad, to find sponsorship, the sponsor job basically has to prove that OP brings a skill that a native grad doesn't bring to the table (probably Chinese skillz and not sure that Cantonese is as strong a sell as Mandarin) and is irreplaceable in order to get a work visa -> green card -> citizenship. The chances of that being plausible anywhere outside of biglaw are slim/none. On top of that, it's a lottery. So, WM but it's a chance on a chance.

*debt was the wrong word. $180k is still a lot of RMB.


clearly I know nothing about the process then haha

hala92
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:41 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby hala92 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:23 pm

scottidsntknow wrote:If you want to do law school, you need to retake and go to a school that will get you NYC biglaw b/c that is your best shot at getting a visa. If you pick either of the two schools that you're considering, you're shooting yourself in both feet and in three years you'll be in a worse position than you are in now (which sounds pretty great fwiw).

Then what if UMN offers a full scholarship? Is it then worth attending? The deposit deadline is today and I can't make my mind. I am an international student from China. I hope to stay in US after graduation.
Ps: Waitlisted and held at t14. 169/three times, but should be able to take one more time in this Oct.

BigZuck
Posts: 10843
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:53 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby BigZuck » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:31 pm

arewevoting wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
arewevoting wrote:maybe i don't understand this visa process, but why is NYC biglaw the only way OP could get a job that qualifies for the lottery? obviously it's OP's preference, and I think it's possible, but even if OP doesn't, there are certainly other options to be had on the table, right? (and I don't mean just finding an American spouse haha)

i think the choice to attend this cycle is less risky than the nay-sayers on this thread are jumping on, particular because OP's Dad is footing the bill. Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country. Not to mention I think Minneappolis is pretty sick (I'm from the east, don't know how to spell it despite two visits).

Also surprised about the BU waitlist.

Just want to give a glimmer of light amongst this thread of of darkness.

As always, though, you could never go wrong with a retake (not arguing against that strategy).


What other options do you have in mind?

What do you mean by a Minnesota degree being "transferable" and what is your basis for that statement?


i mean other legal jobs that are not NYC-biglaw jobs...

my basis for the other statement is that UM is a top twenty law school


Which specific ones sponsor a visa for an international?

How are you defining "transferable"? And what does US News have to do with "transferability?"

User avatar
chuckbass
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:29 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby chuckbass » Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:34 pm

hala92 wrote:
scottidsntknow wrote:If you want to do law school, you need to retake and go to a school that will get you NYC biglaw b/c that is your best shot at getting a visa. If you pick either of the two schools that you're considering, you're shooting yourself in both feet and in three years you'll be in a worse position than you are in now (which sounds pretty great fwiw).

Then what if UMN offers a full scholarship? Is it then worth attending? The deposit deadline is today and I can't make my mind. I am an international student from China. I hope to stay in US after graduation.
Ps: Waitlisted and held at t14. 169/three times, but should be able to take one more time in this Oct.

It's not about the money, it's about the fact that as an international your best shot at a visa is NYC biglaw, and even then it's more complicated and harder to get. I wouldn't bet three years of my life on UMN getting me NYC biglaw.

User avatar
cron1834
Posts: 1918
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:36 am

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby cron1834 » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:08 pm

169 should get you T14 and thus NYC biglaw possibilities. The 165 is in a tougher spot, and the odds of getting the job you want from UMN are very poor. That would likely be a waste of your dad's money.

liberalartslawyer
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:31 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby liberalartslawyer » Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:47 pm

Best solution:

Go to W&M (say thanks to dad!) and find a husband/wife type your first year. If you don't have a good job lined up, a three year track record will be enough to have evidence of an "established" relationship so that you can get citizenship via marriage.

:lol:

Mostly kidding...

User avatar
bretby
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:15 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby bretby » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:03 pm

arewevoting wrote:
pancakes3 wrote:I'm assuming OP is on OPT right now - basically a 1 year grace period post UG to find sponsorship so retake is out of the question, unless he/she retakes in China. Then post-grad, to find sponsorship, the sponsor job basically has to prove that OP brings a skill that a native grad doesn't bring to the table (probably Chinese skillz and not sure that Cantonese is as strong a sell as Mandarin) and is irreplaceable in order to get a work visa -> green card -> citizenship. The chances of that being plausible anywhere outside of biglaw are slim/none. On top of that, it's a lottery. So, WM but it's a chance on a chance.

*debt was the wrong word. $180k is still a lot of RMB.


clearly I know nothing about the process then haha


I think the real issue is not the proving skills part of the Visa process - that requirement is pretty much a joke now - rather, it's the time & expense to the company of sponsoring a visa. A big firm will be much more willing/able to do this than a small firm.

User avatar
jbagelboy
Posts: 9635
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Help Please: Univ. Minnesota vs W&M

Postby jbagelboy » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:38 pm

arewevoting wrote:Minnesota is a quality law school, a degree from there is transferable in this country.


it may be a quality law school, but no, it's not transferable.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BigZuck, bns212, chicago-gunner123, favabeansoup, isuggestbedtime, Sushi, WiltyMIZ and 5 guests