Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

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justabitunusual
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Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:07 pm

University of Iowa ($$) / Tulane ($) / LSU ($$$) / University of Alabama (?) ( Have not been accepted yet, as I just applied last week)

LSAT: 161 GPA: 3.59 (Major GPA was ~ 4.0)

I am from Louisiana and plan to work in the South / Abroad / Other places (basically don't want to be anchored to any one place) Not opposed to doing LLM or transferring 2nd year to a more national school to achieve this. I would like to work in Human Rights / Diplomacy to advocate for trafficking victims. Not necessarily interested in PI work. Ideally would like International (however, after scouring TLS I understand this is not an actual "thing" per se- outside of the T14).

I have so many interests. (Was originally pre-med) So I could follow any # of paths and still find fulfillment. Would be willing to do other work like Maritime law / Immigration / IP law / Health law / Corporate Law. I have spoken to a few people who work in the field of advocating for human trafficking victims and not many of them were very helpful in outlining what their path to success was. Other than Summer International study abroad programs/ meeting the right people, etc. So, I figure, I will aim to do a job that I can repay my debts and also attempt to get relevant summer work, even at Non-profits or unrelated jobs until I can sustain my own interests. This of course means I want to keep my debt load to a bare minimum.

I have a family. My husband will be working so All COL will likely be taken from his income. (I have still added COL factors into the equation just to be thorough.) Otherwise, I will be financing all of it through loans.

I have taken the LSAT the max amount of times (3) and when I took in Feb still only scored 161. (I scored between 5-8 points below my PT scores on the last 2 takes), so even if I waited the additional 2 years to retake (I'm 28 now), I don't see that being an option.

University of Iowa: $30k scholly O.O.S tuition year 1 (OOS t&f= ~$42k), Full tuition scholly yrs 2-3 as long as I do an RA position

(numbers on the following LST chart are the worse case scenario where I don't do the RA position- which I would plan to no matter what if I went there- just wanted to have the most amt of debt i could incur shown )

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Tulane: Scholarship: $35k/yr with 3.0 GPA stipulation (Room & Board may be less since I technically wouldn't have to move to go here)

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LSU: Scholarship ~ $19,700/yr with 2.75 GPA stip.

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Sent in an application to University of AL ab 5 days ago. Have not heard back from them as of yet.

At this point, I'm aware that this looks like a grim outcome, esp if I don't hear back from AL with an acceptance + $$, but if you can see the options for what they are, knowing I can't retake and plan to attend this Fall- what are your thoughts?

Also anecdotal tale, the dean at Tulane (MI grad, himself) said this to me: "If you want to work in Louisiana the rest of your life, LSU may have an edge on us, if you want to work in the mid-west and possibly Chicago, Iowa may have an edge on us, but if you may want to work internationally Tulane has the broader reaching name" - i guess bc of their maritime program? if this holds any weight at all or is just grains of salt- idk.
Last edited by justabitunusual on Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:14 pm

Do you speak any language besides English? This will be a requirement if you want to work abroad. From what I gather, only the top schools will actually give you a shot at international NGOs like Amnesty, the UN, etc. very elite.

Also, Bama still accepts apps this late? Seems fishy.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:17 pm

I speak conversational Spanish ( and can also read pretty fluently in Spanish) and that's what my degree is in, although I'm not fluent...I know if I moved somewhere where Spanish is the main language I would pick it up fluently within a month or two, and even plan on possibly doing a 6 week immersion experience over the summer.

ETA: Apparently AL doesn't have a cut-off date, I found that strange too

ETA2: I think I might have a better chance if I did my LLM at a top school as well- as at least one other Tulane grad did...went to tulane and then did GULC for LLM and ended up writing laws anti-trafficking in Jamaica and now runs a restorative home in NOLA for trafficking victims, while also working w local gov't organizations to write legislation here, etc.

ETA3:Otherwise I could attempt to transfer 2nd year, but again I think that would ultimately bring the debt toll way up.

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:28 pm

I just wouldn't go to law school

The stuff you say you want to primarily do is pretty much impossible to get for anyone, let alone someone not going to a tippy top school. Beyond that you're all over the map (literally and figuratively). Lots of red flags- interest in LLMs, transferring, uprooting another person. This just all sounds like a bad plan to me. Seriously, don't do it.

If things start to come into focus- geographically, career wise, etc. then it might start to make sense. But not now. Now you're really far away from this being anything approximating a good plan.

Generally speaking- LLMs are almost universally useless, unless it's a tax LLM from like NYU or something. International law doesn't exist. If it does exist, it's hard to get and probably not what you're thinking it is. All schools outside of the very tippy top are regional. At the types of places you're talking about, getting a job in a small firm/local government doing modest legal work for like 50K a year would be a very good outcome. Also, employers tend to prefer people with ties and moving to random regional schools is generally not a good move unless there is a solid plan in place. Also, all these schools look to be too expensive. Also, law deans are shills and not to be believed, for the most part.

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:35 pm

The idea that Tulane law has international reach is laughable. Go to the Human Rights Watch website and check out the bios of the directors there. You will see Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. The Tulane grad obviously found connections at Georgetown.

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Dr. Nefario
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby Dr. Nefario » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:40 pm

Retake is TCR :wink:

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:47 pm

I respect what you're saying Zuck, and agree I am all over the board. I guess a better question would be: which route would make the most sense in what i want to accomplish in the future (diplomacy, advocacy, etc.) as far as focusing in on an area of law to practice?

I was unaware of the LLM thing being essentially "useless," (esp since i figured the one person from tulane who ended up doing pretty much what I want to do, i think used that to her advantage in getting International work), so that's good to know.

Traveling/uprooting has always been a plan of ours and is not a deterrent to either of us when it comes to going to school elsewhere, just would like to make sure it is done strategically. I figure if I take out the least amount of debt, I won't have to have a Fantastic job coming out of school, but wondering if going to a "better" regional school would be an answer to getting better jobs coming out of school?

As far as transferring goes, I know it is not looked well upon by some and can even be ignored by some employers, but I wouldn't consider myself out of the equation for transferring. A big part of the reason my GPA is so low is due to Chemistry courses and one Organic Chemistry course in particular bringing it down...all of my other courses (including Math and other sciences) were mostly A's. Not to be overly confident, but I plan to perform at that same level and hopefully be in the top 10%. With that said, I also realize you almost never get scholarships for transferring out, so I would prob not go this route for that reason.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:48 pm

Pragmatic Gun wrote:The idea that Tulane law has international reach is laughable. Go to the Human Rights Watch website and check out the bios of the directors there. You will see Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. The Tulane grad obviously found connections at Georgetown.



Yeah this is why I figured an LLM might be useful or transferring. I was thinking the same ab Tulane having International reach, but just didn't know for sure.

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Pragmatic Gun
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby Pragmatic Gun » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:51 pm

justabitunusual wrote:
Pragmatic Gun wrote:The idea that Tulane law has international reach is laughable. Go to the Human Rights Watch website and check out the bios of the directors there. You will see Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Columbia, NYU. The Tulane grad obviously found connections at Georgetown.



Yeah this is why I figured an LLM might be useful or transferring. I was thinking the same ab Tulane having International reach, but just didn't know for sure.


You are better off retaking and going to the T14.

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:58 pm

Neither your GPA nor your LSAT score matches your perception of how smart you are or how much you expect you will academically achieve. You can't realistically expect that you'll crush law school. There will be tons and tons of kids at these schools that are just as smart as you, have academically performed as well as you have, and have just as high expectations of themselves. And most of them will be locked out of the top 10%. That's just how law school rolls.

Don't expect to transfer or to get an LLM which will get you connections. Make the right school choice the first time. If you can't get into a school that matches those goals, readjust your goals. If you can't do that, don't go.

You just can't to a school like Iowa and expect you'll be doing human rights work abroad. It just won't happen.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:59 pm

hypothetically speaking though if I happened to get into Vandy or somewhere in that range but at sticker (which i think is out of the question), would you guys still advocate doing that instead? I mean, I want to do the human trafficking route for sure (and even if I was working doing this kind of work on the side as in pro-bono work on a local level- however that may look), but would also love those other areas of the law i mentioned, and am not saying I only want to work in human rights.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:03 pm

BigZuck wrote:Neither your GPA nor your LSAT score matches your perception of how smart you are or how much you expect you will academically achieve. You can't realistically expect that you'll crush law school. There will be tons and tons of kids at these schools that are just as smart as you, have academically performed as well as you have, and have just as high expectations of themselves. And most of them will be locked out of the top 10%. That's just how law school rolls.

Don't expect to transfer or to get an LLM which will get you connections. Make the right school choice the first time. If you can't get into a school that matches those goals, readjust your goals. If you can't do that, don't go.

You just can't to a school like Iowa and expect you'll be doing human rights work abroad. It just won't happen.


No, I don't think I'm smarter than the avg law school Joe (was just mentioning that my GPA wasn't representative of my overall academic career) or anything just saying at the schools I mentioned I could conceivably be in the top 10% of my class. And as it relates to law school I know there will be over-performers and it will be highly competitive, I just know that I will put in the work that it takes, and sometimes that's worth more than being the "smartest" one in the room.

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:06 pm

No, don't go to Vandy at sticker

The types of jobs you're talking about are 0L flights of fancy, an idealized vision of what lawyers actually do, or straight up marketing material carefully crafted by ad coms. They just aren't realistic outcomes. Your chance of becoming a human rights lawyer if you go to one of these schools is probably slightly better than becoming a famous actress and slightly worse than becoming an astronaut.

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:29 pm

BigZuck wrote:No, don't go to Vandy at sticker

The types of jobs you're talking about are 0L flights of fancy, an idealized vision of what lawyers actually do, or straight up marketing material carefully crafted by ad coms. They just aren't realistic outcomes. Your chance of becoming a human rights lawyer if you go to one of these schools is probably slightly better than becoming a famous actress and slightly worse than becoming an astronaut.


Gotcha but if I wanted to work in the local NGO sphere and just doing the human rights stuff/helping trafficking victims on a pro-bono level (i guess PI work type stuff, like representing victims being charged as prostitutes, etc.) and doing something else as a means of making money (related or unrelated to the SJW stuff), in one of the other fields mentioned, my thought is to go to a school where i would take out the least amt of debt.

I have a broad range of interests, yes but if I were to specialize in say Intellectual Property Law as my main interest (yes I understand the type of experience I would gain working for a firm of this type would in no way prepare me for work in the field of advocacy for trafficking victims), and work for 5-10 years doing that paying off debt, etc. Could I change the direction of my career? It seems that shouldn't be completely out of the question...but maybe I'm wrong.

(Basically one day working as a volunteer for the trafficking victims and/or working my way up to the human rights table?)

Just as a side note: My mom and 2 aunts are paralegals and have been for over 20 years, so I have a pretty decent view of what a law firm is like aside from the flight of fancy view although I admit wholeheartedly that my goals are lofty --which is why i started this thread)

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby timmyd » Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:56 pm

It just boggles my mind how people think its so easy to achieve the grades needed for a meaningful transfer. You have a decent gpa an lsat....so what? To the extent these measurements even equate to law school success (highly debatable), yours will be be basically equal to your peers. In order to achieve a meaningful transfer from a school like Tulane you will need, at the very very least, top 20% (and this will only get you into schools like UT, Vandy, and maybe Gtown but I doubt it). In order to transfer to schools that may help you meet your goals, you'll need top 5% at a minimum. Why do you think you can do this? What objectively can you point to? Sure, its possible, but its so much easier to retake the LSAT. I really begin to become frustrated when I see students, before even entering law school, talking about transferring as some kind of given. Should you believe in your abilities? Absolutely, but there is nothing illogical about believing in yourself while still giving yourself the most margin for error. I'm a transfer student myself...I lucked out to a degree. I didn't enter law school thinking about transferring, in fact I didn't even know it was an option. Transferring is something you think about after, at the very least, your first semester. I almost think all this information about transferring that is now available (or maybe it always was and I just didn't know it) is detrimental because every joe blow in the class thinks they can do it.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:33 pm

Look I'm not trying to be presumptuous, but if I knew I could try to transfer out and that it was an option that would increase the likelihood of my goals, then yes I would "consider it," and yes i see what you mean ab it being frustrating me making it seem like it was a given, esp w me saying in the OP that I was "not opposed" to transferring. But you can't blame a person for knowing ab transferring ahead of law school- thanks to TLS mostly. I'm mostly just speculating here.

You say you lucked out... how does that differ from what I'm suggesting? And on that note, you said your thoughts on Tulane, but what ab transferring from Iowa or Alabama? (honestly if I get in at AL I would prob be content bc it's in a closer region to my extended family and still I think has pretty good job prospects for being <T20).


I agree with you completely ab the margin of error thing, which is why I put myself on the TLS chopping block by bringing this up, bc I'm not making the decision lightly and I am considering the options I have as the "only " options right now. Just throwing some theoreticals around to see what people's thoughts are prior to making a commitment.

As far as retaking goes, I would have to wait 2 years for that, I have 3 children and their ages and grades in school are optimal right now for me to attempt something like law school.

Why do I think I can do this? Bc I have a lot to lose if I don't do my best (which is everyone's story I know). To point to something objective though, I completed high school with honors having 2 children, then college with honors and 3 young children while homeschooling them. I know that might not seem like a big deal or enough to warrant thinking I can transfer, but it does speak of my dedication to my work.

This whole thread though is really just asking what option is the best financially debt load vs job prospects wise, assuming I am dumb enough to take on any amount of debt to go to a school that is sub T14 ...with my lofty goals as just a basis for what my unicorn job would be and knowing that that is what it is- and that i will likely have another type of job if that makes any sense at all

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby Rigo » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:43 pm

As stated, you're unlikely to achieve your goals thru any of these schools.
You should negotiate with LSU up to a full ride if you can, and if you insist on going to law school, I would go there. It sounds like you want Louisiana or the South at the end of the day and Tulane is just way too expensive as it currently stands.

You shouldn't shell out for Alabama or Vandy if you luck into an acceptance at either. Neither makes achieving your goals any more likely.

Would you be fine working at a small law firm drafting wills, defending DUI's, etc.? What about a local government attorney offering plea bargains for speeding tickets? If those aren't palatable backup plans for you, then you should probably reconsider going to law school.

Maybe you could look into working for some of these organizations in a non-legal capacity.

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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby timmyd » Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:20 pm

I'm saying I lucked out because a lot of it is pure dumb luck. You can't really appreciate that until you go through this process and see that there is a great deal of disparity between work put in and results achieved. You will see some slackers in the top 10% and some kids that spent their lives in the library not make median. You will see kids that are obviously very intelligent making bad grades. Hard work and intelligence probably guarantee you won't be at the very bottom of the class, but at the margins, where it matters, the difference between top 20% and top 25% or top 10% and top 15% are going to come down to so many little variables you can't possibly plan or anticipate. Things such as getting an exam that touches on an area of law you studied for just a little bit harder than something that luckily wasn't on the exam, losing steam during exams, clicking more with a prof you were assigned to then the one in the other section etc....
Is there any difference between transferring from Tulane or Iowa or Alabama? I really doubt it. Those schools are all peers no matter what US News says. Similar, if not identical grades, from all three will be needed to transfer.
The danger I think of all this transfer talk is that I believe it plays a role, perhaps even subconsciously, in convincing yourself that attending a certain school is a good idea. The correct mindset should be that transferring will not be an option, because it most likely won't be, you should attend a school you would be happy graduating from because you likely will graduate from said school. If you enter this process thinking that transferring is some kind of viable and accessible option, it makes it easier to justify going to a school like Tulane. The problem is for the vast majority of students, at any law school, its not an option and shouldn't even be considered in deciding on a school.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:23 pm

I see what you mean, and thank you for taking the time to further explain that.

I guess I was leaning more towards Iowa with the thought that I would have a better chance of transferring from there than Tulane. And also leaning towards Iowa since it will be way cheaper than Tulane is going to be. But as your saying, regardless, I need to treat transferring as the special case that it is, and not think of it as "a way out." So, if I go to Iowa, I graduate from Iowa, etc.

I did reconfigure my LST charts based on the fact that I would do the RA position at Iowa and at each school I would not be financing COL, for it to be a more accurate picture of what I believe will be my presumed debt load.


Iowa:
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Tulane:
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LSU:
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cron1834
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby cron1834 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:28 pm

I see two defensible options:

1) study for the LSAT for two years, retake, and go T14. You're already going to be non traditional relative to your peers, so an extra two years won't matter. This would make your goals move from Impossible to Unlikely.

2) Negotiate with your state school for full tuition. You're not going to get international law, but at least you'll save tons of money you can spend on your family instead.

Don't go to Iowa, don't go to Alabama.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:38 pm

Sorry those turned out so big.

I guess when it comes down to it, if Human Rights jobs are out of the question (and assuming I still plan to go to school this Fall, since taking off for 2 years is somewhat impractical in my current situation), I could possibly pursue other interests like corporation mediation, in-house counsel for commercial construction, or various avenues in intellectual property- and donate time and income to the organizations that are doing the Human Rights work I was originally seeking to work in.

Obviously, if I'm going to continue to pursue the law, I need to re-evaluate my options and re-focus my plan to be a lot more narrow in scope...so I will continue to think ab this.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's input.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:40 pm

cron1834 wrote:I see two defensible options:

1) study for the LSAT for two years, retake, and go T14. You're already going to be non traditional relative to your peers, so an extra two years won't matter. This would make your goals move from Impossible to Unlikely.

2) Negotiate with your state school for full tuition. You're not going to get international law, but at least you'll save tons of money you can spend on your family instead.

Don't go to Iowa, don't go to Alabama.



Saw this after my last post. Thanks for your input, I'm keeping an open mind at this point.

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WhiskeyAndCupcakes
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby WhiskeyAndCupcakes » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:06 am

Last edited by WhiskeyAndCupcakes on Fri May 29, 2015 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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justabitunusual
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby justabitunusual » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:26 am

WhiskeyAndCupcakes wrote:Unusual, I know I've said this privately, but I think this is a good step. It's definitely worthwhile to take some time to consider your interests and strengths and to figure out what plausible career paths interest you. A more tailored understanding of what realistic jobs you'd like to pursue will help people give you advice.


Yeah, thanks for your help...I will def be considering all of this in more depth.

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chuckbass
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Re: Iowa ($$), Tulane ($), LSU ($$$), Alabama (?) [$=scholly]

Postby chuckbass » Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:37 am

I don't think you actually want to be a lawyer. Why don't you just do the peace corps or something?




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