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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:08 pm
by R. Jeeves
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Re: Penn with $110,000 vs. UVA full-ride

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:14 pm
by rpupkin
pulstar wrote:Is UVA the easy choice here?

Yes.

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:18 pm
by filibuster
You will get NYC biglaw out of either school (most likely). No need to go into more debt. This is an easy case.

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:29 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
I wouldnt say its crazy, just depends on how much you value that extra security

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:35 pm
by rpupkin
Mack.Hambleton wrote:I wouldnt say its crazy, just depends on how much you value that extra security

I'm not sure Penn really offers extra security. OP wants to target NYC big law. If you were to compare, for a given class rank, UVA students who target NYC big law versus Penn students who target NYC big law, you're probably going to end up with nearly identical outcomes. Yeah, I know we can't prove that, but I still think these schools are essentially peers.

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:06 pm
by Mack.Hambleton
penn placed 70% into biglaw and uva placed 50% into biglaw, and since no one knows how much is self selection at either place I dont think its unfair to say that penn is a safer bet since they at least have a proven record

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:32 pm
by rpupkin
Mack.Hambleton wrote:penn placed 70% into biglaw and uva placed 50% into biglaw, and since no one knows how much is self selection at either place I dont think its unfair to say that penn is a safer bet since they at least have a proven record

C'mon, don't be intentionally misleading. It's 70% versus 52%, and UVA beat Penn in clerkship placement, 15.19% versus 7.91%. Do you honestly think that those UVA clerks couldn't get NYC big law--which is really easy to get right now?

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:37 pm
by envisciguy
filibuster wrote:You will get NYC biglaw out of either school (most likely). No need to go into more debt. This is an easy case.


NY biglaw is the easiest of the biglaw markets to crack. Unless you think you'd be absolutely miserable for the 3 years in Charlottesville, there's really no reason to pay an extra $60k. Neither choice is bad, but I'd say that for your goals, UVA makes a lot more sense, unless you REALLY LOVE Philly.

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:44 pm
by xiao_long
The question here is whether Penn is worth paying the extra money. I'd say no because OP has said he/she would be happy with either NYC or DC. If that's the case, any slight advantage Penn would offer for NYC Big law (if at all...) will probably not be worth the extra debt.

Philly is nice, but so is saving an extra $64,000! :)

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:46 pm
by Br3v
Not worth 64K. Not even close.

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:52 pm
by arklaw13
No

Re: Is Penn worth $64K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:09 pm
by R. Jeeves
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Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:12 pm
by arklaw13
still no

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:15 pm
by mvp99
Genuinely curious... have you ever worked?

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:16 pm
by Serett
Nope.

Penn isn't exorbitantly expensive for you, so the choice won't be crippling. But it's absolutely not your best choice based solely on numerical factors.

pulstar wrote:I'd really like to go to Penn - their employment numbers are much stronger than UVA's (especially for c/o 2014)


plz stahp

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:18 pm
by R. Jeeves
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Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:21 pm
by Clearly
Serett wrote:Nope.

Penn isn't exorbitantly expensive for you, so the choice won't be crippling. But it's absolutely not your best choice based solely on numerical factors.

pulstar wrote:I'd really like to go to Penn - their employment numbers are much stronger than UVA's (especially for c/o 2014)


plz stahp


If you don't think Penn is worth more, that's a totally valid cost/benefit judgement, but to act like Penn doesn't outplace UVA is crazy. Lets not forget about this hiring 15% of your own class trick...

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:22 pm
by arklaw13
pulstar wrote:
arklaw13 wrote:still no


haha i figured.

thanks for all the responses so far. To be honest Im just looking for reasons to go to Penn, but I cant find a not-stupid-sounding reason for paying $74K more.


you'd have to have a spouse and children living in Philly who cannot, under any circumstances, move to another city and are incapable of learning how to skype.

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:26 pm
by R. Jeeves
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Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:30 pm
by 03152016
on no planet should you pick penn, given the facts as you've told them itt
and it's not close

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:33 pm
by R. Jeeves
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Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:36 pm
by envisciguy
pulstar wrote:
mvp99 wrote:Genuinely curious... have you ever worked?


not full-time. so yeah, i don't truly realize what it means to pay off an extra $74K in loans and all that. Just wondering if the employment situations at the two schools could close the gap is all. Consensus seems to be no.


I really think the difference in employment stats are overstated. The school funded jobs are at 10% now and provide a lot of assistance to people whose legitimate first choice is PI. I truly believe UVA emphasizes PI a lot more than Penn. Also, I'm generally not a fan of the "high stats mean I'll do well" argument, but if you're a Dillard recipient, I'm thinking you'll be able to do well enough to get NY biglaw - the bar isn't very high.

Another thing to consider – having half the debt will also give you more freedom. Maybe after 3-5 years you decide you hate NY biglaw (like most people do) and want to take a less demanding but lower paying job. Odds are you've paid off that debt from UVA by that point, but maybe not the debt from Penn.

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:41 pm
by R. Jeeves
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Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:30 pm
by OneLisfun
I'd go with Penn and never look back. This is your one shot, it's not a gamble that you look at and base everything on the short term. If you really believe it gives you a 15% better chance at big law (something I think is sound), that's a 15% greater chance at over the course of your career many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and arguably well over a million dollars. 15% of whatever that amount is is a lot more than 74k.

Re: Is Penn worth $74K more than UVA?

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:33 pm
by Serett
Clearly wrote:
Serett wrote:Nope.

Penn isn't exorbitantly expensive for you, so the choice won't be crippling. But it's absolutely not your best choice based solely on numerical factors.

pulstar wrote:I'd really like to go to Penn - their employment numbers are much stronger than UVA's (especially for c/o 2014)


plz stahp


If you don't think Penn is worth more, that's a totally valid cost/benefit judgement, but to act like Penn doesn't outplace UVA is crazy. Lets not forget about this hiring 15% of your own class trick...


It's certainly not "much stronger." And let's not forget about how PI/Gov.'t hiring in no small part is facilitated by fellowships. Are you also terrified of Yale's numbers?

They're peers. Neither has clearly disproportionate negative outcomes. They have similar percentages of students in smaller firms. They have the same number of students in short-term and part-time positions. They both have similar total employment. But UVA does have disproportionately more PI, government, federal clerks, while Penn has disproportionately more BL placements. I'm pretty over freaking out about only BL numbers. Just because they're the clearest data doesn't mean they're the end of rational thought. It's far more likely that two historically comparable schools with similar quality student bodies are sending people to different types of good outcomes--but good and transferable outcomes nonetheless--than that one is in fact "much stronger" than the other.

Sorry if this is snippy. You just happen to be the target of some ire that's been building up for awhile, and I need to say this at least once. At equal value, whatever, choose Penn. At a $10k-$20k difference, fine, give Penn the benefit of hard numbers. But their numbers are comparable, there is no substantial difference, and there's absolutely nothing numerically justifying paying $74k more for Penn than UVA.