. Forum

[03152016]

I'd go with Penn and never look back. This is your one shot, it's not a gamble that you look at and base everything on the short term. If you really believe it gives you a 15% better chance at big law (something I think is sound), that's a 15% greater chance at over the course of your career many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and arguably well over a million dollars. 15% of whatever that amount is is a lot more than 74k.

please explain why you think the bolded is sound

[arklaw13]

I'd go with Penn and never look back. This is your one shot, it's not a gamble that you look at and base everything on the short term. If you really believe it gives you a 15% better chance at big law (something I think is sound), that's a 15% greater chance at over the course of your career many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and arguably well over a million dollars. 15% of whatever that amount is is a lot more than 74k.

15% more graduates going into BL firms =/= 15% greater chance at biglaw. See yale.

[BruceWayne]

There are a ton of UVA people who have absolutely no desire to go NYC biglaw ( a ton of people target DC, the South, and Texas almost exclusively) When you look at the placement gap, you start to realize how many of these schools really are peers.

[Mack.Hambleton]

To add some more data


NLJ250 numbers

2013:
55% for penn
44% for uva

2012:
60% for penn
42% uva

2011:
57% for penn
40% for uva

I'm not buying self selection for all of this at all, considering penn has jd/mbas and other people self selecting out as well

[Mack.Hambleton]

I'd go with Penn and never look back. This is your one shot, it's not a gamble that you look at and base everything on the short term. If you really believe it gives you a 15% better chance at big law (something I think is sound), that's a 15% greater chance at over the course of your career many hundreds of thousands of dollars, and arguably well over a million dollars. 15% of whatever that amount is is a lot more than 74k.

15% more graduates going into BL firms =/= 15% greater chance at biglaw. See yale.

UVA is not Yale

[Dafaq]

I just viewed the Latest employment data thread and Penn killed it, ranked #1. UVA wasn’t in the top ten (once their SFJ was omitted).

Correction Edit: Actually UVA was #10.

[Serett]

To add some more data


NLJ250 numbers

2013:
55% for penn
44% for uva

2012:
60% for penn
42% uva

2011:
57% for penn
40% for uva

I'm not buying self selection for all of this at all, considering penn has jd/mbas and other people self selecting out as well

If you're going to do this, don't bother doing it without calculating respective PI, Gov.'t, Fed Clerk, and Business/Industry percentages.

[03152016]

To add some more data


NLJ250 numbers

2013:
55% for penn
44% for uva

2012:
60% for penn
42% uva

2011:
57% for penn
40% for uva

I'm not buying self selection for all of this at all, considering penn has jd/mbas and other people self selecting out as well

why use nlj250 instead of bl/fc
why omit the most recent data
this makes no sense to me, is there a valid reason?

2014
78% for penn
67.6% for uva

2013
69.1% for penn
62.9% for uva

still not getting close to 15%

also, i don't get the jd/mba self selection argument
a whopping 10 people at penn sent into "business" last year
literally 9 people out of a 278 person class had a jd advantage position
this is not compelling

uva pi can partially be chalked up to school-funded, as there was a distinct rise in pi/gov't placement when they started expanding those programs
i tend to look more at pre-lt school funded stats to see if schools really have a pi bent
uva started playing games in 2011, so:
uva 2010: 44/374 grads in lt pi, 1 school funded
penn 2010: 17/276 grads in lt pi, 2 school funded

self selection argument is more convincing for uva than penn
tho neither is particularly strong due to uva's school funding shenanigans

[03152016]

i believe that penn has a placement advantage over uva
but i think it's being massively overstated in this thread, and i also think some stats in this thread are misleading

it is a curve, not a cliff
for nyc biglaw, penn has enough of a placement advantage to justify choosing it over uva at equal cost, maybe even at slightly greater cost
but a uva student who wants nyc biglaw is probably going to get it
and that's before you factor in the dillard
this idea than penn has a 15 or 20 point placement advantage over uva is based on figures that simply don't reflect reality

[Mack.Hambleton]

To add some more data


NLJ250 numbers

2013:
55% for penn
44% for uva

2012:
60% for penn
42% uva

2011:
57% for penn
40% for uva

I'm not buying self selection for all of this at all, considering penn has jd/mbas and other people self selecting out as well

why use nlj250 instead of bl/fc
why omit the most recent data
this makes no sense to me, is there a valid reason?

2014
78% for penn
67.6% for uva

2013
69.1% for penn
62.9% for uva

still not getting close to 15%

also, i don't get the jd/mba self selection argument
a whopping 10 people at penn sent into "business" last year
literally 9 people out of a 278 person class had a jd advantage position
this is not compelling

uva pi can partially be chalked up to school-funded, as there was a distinct rise in pi/gov't placement when they started expanding those programs
i tend to look more at pre-lt school funded stats to see if schools really have a pi bent
uva started playing games in 2011, so:
uva 2010: 44/374 grads in lt pi, 1 school funded
penn 2010: 17/276 grads in lt pi, 2 school funded

self selection argument is more convincing for uva than penn
tho neither is particularly strong due to uva's school funding shenanigans

thats the most recent NLJ data on their site. I also already listed BL ABA data. The point is the only thing UVA has going for it is anecdata and muh self selection, like 10 percent of the class self selected into being paid by the school.

to the larger point i do agree theres not a HUGE difference, and personally I wouldnt pay 74k more for the difference. Maybe 30-40

[Br3v]

Unless you like love Philly I wouldn't even pick Penn over UVA for an extra 7.4K let alone 74 (or vice versa)

[03152016]

thats the most recent NLJ data on their site. I also already listed BL ABA data. The point is the only thing UVA has going for it is anecdata and muh self selection, like 10 percent of the class self selected into being paid by the school.

to the larger point i do agree theres not a HUGE difference, and personally I wouldnt pay 74k more for the difference. Maybe 30-40

you didn't list bl aba data
you said UVA was 50% to penn's 70%
you cannot round 52.44% down to 50%

you also didn't respond to my question about why you're omitting fedclerk
uva has historically had stronger fedclerk placement than penn
by omitting fedclerk for apparently no legitimate reason, you're making it appear as though uva has less placement power than it actually does

the divide between penn and uva is 78-68, not 70-50. and there is a big difference

i've noticed some playing fast and loose w/ the numbers recently and it concerns me, esp w/ hundreds (thousands?) of students reading these boards daily for choosing advice

[mvp99]

No need to go there.. even if its 15% how is that worth 70k+ difference? Do you guys have any idea how much it sucks to pay down 70K+!?

[03152016]

and just to put a finer point on it
the numbers posted itt exactly double the gap between penn and uva
that is a disservice to 0Ls

[Clearly]

Brut, please calculate V10 firm placement, as per last Penn debate.

[BigZuck]

OP- I don't understand your Penn preference (unless you're looking for BIG CHEESESTEAK LAW)

Is it cuz Penn is more prestigious? Let's cut through the bullshit and be honest with ourselves: neither is prestigous. You know that. I know that. Everyone knows that. If you cared about prestige you'd be headed to Princeton Law right now. But deep down you know that prestige doesn't matter. That's why you're not even considering Princeton Law. So prestige can't be a factor.

Is it because Penn "places better?" We both know that's LOL. Even if true on some level, I mean, LOL.

So what is it? You just like Philly more? I mean, fine. Is that worth 70K? Objectively, probably not. Is it worth it to you? That's all on you, broham. No need to make a thread if that's the case.

So what is it exactly?

[03152016]

@clear
right now?
it would take me like 20 minutes. i haven't gone through s&c
i'll do it this weekend. possibly later tonight if i can't sleep

[Mack.Hambleton]

over the past four years the difference between Penn and UVA BL+FC IS 15.5%

75% mean for penn
59.5% mean for uva

[03152016]

@clear p.2 if i had to speculate, i'd say penn has a slight edge on uva in v10, just based on the preliminary #s i posted last night
v10 isn't a great measure tho
my intuition is that penn would also have a slight edge in v20/grade selective firms more broadly
that project is the one i'm excited about

[Mack.Hambleton]

over the past four years the difference between Penn and UVA BL+FC IS 15.5%

75% mean for penn
59.5% mean for uva

pls rspnd

[03152016]

over the past four years the difference between Penn and UVA BL+FC IS 15.5%

75% mean for penn
59.5% mean for uva

pls rspnd

i'll have to check your work
sorry, but you've lost a lot of credibility tonight
also, you should go back and respond to the arguments i made instead of ducking them

[03152016]

penn
((45.3+7.7+5.1+9.1)+(51.1+9.3+6.3+10.4)+(48.6+6.9+4.2+9.3)+78)/4
72.825%

uva
((25.2+8.2+3.7+10.6)+(34.9+8.5+4.4+14.3)+(38.5+6.9+4.7+12.9)+67.6)/4
60.1%

72.825%-60.1%=12.725%

nice fucking try

[Mack.Hambleton]

I used data from aba reports what are you using

[03152016]

same
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... ends/2011/
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/uva/trends/2013/

[03152016]

mack this is getting sad
you've gotta learn when to hold em and learn when to fold em